Smashing the flop with junk

[LovesADraw]

Playing £1/£1 casino cash, £150 behind with  :  :  in the SB.

The £2 straddle is in and there are 4 limpers to me, I complete for the extra £1 (getting 12/1 on the call) and so does the BB. UTG checks his option. Right, is this just a call with any two? Seems like the odds just to see the flop are crazy.

 :  :  :

BOOM! That's how to hit a flop. I check first to act with the intention of c/r any bet but it checks round...

 :

I lead out for £12, UTG calls and the rest fold. I don't have a massive amount of info on this guy at the time but he was playing a lot of pots so assumed he's quite loose.

 :

I lead again for £21, UTG tanks and raises to £65. I tank and decide there is a lot he could be playing that looks strong after the checked flop and call.

Villain tables  : : for the rivered straight sigh...

Should I have taken a more aggressive line on the flop? I feels like a SB open on this flop is going to fold out the whole table 90% of the time and the remaining 10% I'm always beaten, the check keeps a lot of worse hands and bluffs in the opponents ranges.

As played is the river always a call here?

Thoughts?

[muckthenuts]

Yeah you should still fold preflop. You're going to need a very specific flop with K4 (or any junk for that matter) and you're in the nut worst position to extract any value postflop making it a long term losing play. Add in reverse implied odds too when you flop something like top pair with this hand and end up losing money to better top pairs. This is a very common leak among live regs but one that should pay off pretty quick if you plug it.

Wouldn't c/r flop, you will only get action from better! As played should really fold to the river raise. This multiway and in a limped pot it's really unlikely anyone is bluffing.

[WotRTheChances]

Overlimp pre isn't a problem, however it will be a big leak if you then get married to flops like this. Certainly wouldn't be looking to c/r any flop bet, you really aren't doing that great when called and end up playing a bloated pot oop vs a bunch of people who can have better/some draws, it just makes the hand difficult to play imo.

River bet is good, but you are almost never winning when raised. Villain limping UTG can definitely have JJ/KJ/QT/22... even 99 possibly. Plus people rarely bluff-raise rivers, particularly live 1/1 players.

[Rexas]

Overlimp pre isn't a problem, however it will be a big leak if you then get married to flops like this. Certainly wouldn't be looking to c/r any flop bet, you really aren't doing that great when called and end up playing a bloated pot oop vs a bunch of people who can have better/some draws, it just makes the hand difficult to play imo.

River bet is good, but you are almost never winning when raised. Villain limping UTG can definitely have JJ/KJ/QT/22... even 99 possibly. Plus people rarely bluff-raise rivers, particularly live 1/1 players.

Gotta agree with thigh here. Literally never folding pre, yes you need a pretty specific flop but what the hell, that price is definitely good enough to go looking for one of those sorts of flops.

So yh, defo don't want to check raise, I think I'd want to bet flop and be very prepared to fold if any obvious draws complete later, but imo theres a fair bit of stuff we can get a couple of streets from, some stuff we might get three from on good runouts with good sizing from us. Getting two streets from stuff that would only bet once is greattach news.

As for river, try going back through the hand and working out what takes this line that you beat. Also remember it's limped multiway pot.

[SuuPRlim]

Preflop is no issue for me.

I would lead the flop,  very likely someone has a jack or flush draw or perhaps a pocket pair they will call with,  very unlikely anyone will bet with those hands, or call a check raise with them if they do but it's like close to gtd they will call a flop bet with them.

Then you can just bet every street pretty much until you're raised at which point you'd likely wanna fold.

As you played it, it's all ok. You can only beat a bluff on the end and he's very unlikely to be bluffing but you're getting ~5\1 so can never be a terrible call imo... seems like he is defo bluffing a fair bit less than that though so folding almost certainly the better option I feel.

[muckthenuts]

I think for the 3 people who posted preflop would be ok, but for someone not vastly experienced it's going to cause more trouble than it's worth because of the reverse implied factor.

[LovesADraw]

Thanks All!

I feel the moral of this story is to not pay people at this level off... Guys playing 1/1 are so rarely bluffing the river (even more rarely bluff raising) that I'm almost never good here.

Also agree that I should have lead out the flop