WSOP 2017

[Ledders]

All investors would have to fill in their own tax form so the player only gets taxed on the % he had of himself. Investors then have their own tax obligations

It's definitely something to consider if you're from a taxable country when investing, most probably don't however.

[tikay]

All investors would have to fill in their own tax form so the player only gets taxed on the % he had of himself. Investors then have their own tax obligations

It's definitely something to consider if you're from a taxable country when investing, most probably don't however.

Thank you. This is all rather intriguing.

Assume the winner had sold, say, 50% of himself to 5 different buyers. (10% each). How does he go about proving that to the Tax authorities?

I mean, certainly in my limited experience, when we buy or sell action there is never a formal contract, it's usually just a Forum Staking Thread or a Facebook post, or an informal arrangement. ("Tom, wanna swap 5%?" sorta thing). Hardly adequate to convince the Tax authorities, is it?

If I were Blumstein & I had all of myself, it would be in my interest to claim I had sold a lot of myself, would it not? So how do both parties go about proving that?

[SuuPRlim]

Interestingly, the final 5 here lost ~$5.95m to taxes because of the order they finished in. Had Blumstein and Ott finished in 4th and 5th though, would have been less than $2m taken...

Probably could have very easily been organised so Blumstein could finish 5th and make more money than winning it

[The Camel]

It's a massive bargaining chip for us, if we are doing a deal at the final table.

We say we'll take official first place, but split the money, means Americans can save a fortune in tax.

Anyone know if leaving the EU will affect our tax treaty with the USA?

[SuuPRlim]

Just realised, even after split they still need to pay taxes anyway!

But anyway, it's fucked up.

[Doobs]

All investors would have to fill in their own tax form so the player only gets taxed on the % he had of himself. Investors then have their own tax obligations

It's definitely something to consider if you're from a taxable country when investing, most probably don't however.

Thank you. This is all rather intriguing.

Assume the winner had sold, say, 50% of himself to 5 different buyers. (10% each). How does he go about proving that to the Tax authorities?

I mean, certainly in my limited experience, when we buy or sell action there is never a formal contract, it's usually just a Forum Staking Thread or a Facebook post, or an informal arrangement. ("Tom, wanna swap 5%?" sorta thing). Hardly adequate to convince the Tax authorities, is it?

If I were Blumstein & I had all of myself, it would be in my interest to claim I had sold a lot of myself, would it not? So how do both parties go about proving that?

It is like all other declarations you fill in on a tax form.  In the UK you can be subject to a tax inspection.  I assume the same applies in the US.  You would have to provide proof you paid the people their money.  It is probably better to pay people bank transfers rather than cash if you win big and are subject to tax? 

Because of staking, there is no way that table is accurate. 

FWIW In a recent tournament I played, somebody deliberately gave us more to keep himself under 5k.  If you win over 5k, you can be subject to tax, witholding etc. 

[SuuPRlim]

Exactly what type of Tax is it? Income tax or capital gains?

If he invests in some businesses, buys some real estate, makes some loans etc is that all deductable?

Obviously fake losing as much money as possible at gambling! Can play all high rollers etc as you're basically only putting up 60% of the buyin.

[lucky_scrote]

It is like all other declarations you fill in on a tax form.  In the UK you can be subject to a tax inspection.  I assume the same applies in the US.  You would have to provide proof you paid the people their money.  It is probably better to pay people bank transfers rather than cash if you win big and are subject to tax? 

Because of staking, there is no way that table is accurate. 

FWIW In a recent tournament I played, somebody deliberately gave us more to keep himself under 5k.  If you win over 5k, you can be subject to tax, witholding etc. 

It's gambling tax, a lot of countries have it. Exactly how you have to pay it differs. For example in the Netherlands you have to pay 29% a month on net winnings over about €430.

Exactly what type of Tax is it? Income tax or capital gains?

If he invests in some businesses, buys some real estate, makes some loans etc is that all deductable?

Obviously fake losing as much money as possible at gambling! Can play all high rollers etc as you're basically only putting up 60% of the buyin.

It's gambling tax most places and for countries that see it as a profession (USA) it's income tax I think. You can deduct expenses.

Yes, obviously "lose" as much as you can. Tourney grinders seem to dump thousands every month in cash games....

[Doobs]

Exactly what type of Tax is it? Income tax or capital gains?

If he invests in some businesses, buys some real estate, makes some loans etc is that all deductable?

Obviously fake losing as much money as possible at gambling! Can play all high rollers etc as you're basically only putting up 60% of the buyin.

You only get 60% of the winnings back, so playing high rollers is now no different to us playing them except your buy in is effectively 40% smaller. 

Deliberately losing in them would be crazy in this situation.   Say you are play a 100k highroller to save 40k tax.  If you deliberately lose,  you are now 60k worse off and not 40k better off.

[FUN4FRASER]

A random & probably junior journo at Poker Strategy published a really interesting piece this morning.

The numbers below are what the Finalists won, & how much they were left with after tax. So, for example, the winner "won" $8.15 milly, but after tax he will be left with $4.31 milly.





1st Scott Blumstein $8,150,000       $4,310,571
2nd Dan Ott $4,700,000                 $2,600,194
3rd Benjamin Pollak $3,500,000      $3,500,000
4th John Hesp  $2,600,000            $2,600,000
5th Antoine Saout  $2,000,000       $2,000,000
6th Bryan Piccioli $1,675,000         $791,023
7th Damian Salas $1,425,000         $997,500
8th Jack Sinclair $1,200,000         $1,200,000
9th Ben Lamb $1,000,000             $591,517



You can see the full article here;


https://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/world-of-poker/The-WSOP-Main-Event-final-table-payouts-after-taxes_101565/


Well worth a look.

We were on Deadmans rail in 2015 and I was speaking  to Shaun Deeb in length about the taxes and although he agreed they were ridiculous he told me its not as black and white as published figures make out because you only pay on declared profits over the year , so proof of buy ins , overheads , swops etc are all declared  for the year and a net adjustment is made to the tax man which varies in every American state . Kelly Saxby informs me even though she has been in England 11 years she still has to pay her tax in the U s on any UK poker profits plus UK takes on her business which makes the game unbeatable


Personally I find it incredible that The Americans  and other taxed nations continue to pay these ridiculous amounts  I certainly wouldn't play The WSOP unless all winnings were retained as its already  a tough gig to win The Yankee Dollar.

[The Camel]

Exactly what type of Tax is it? Income tax or capital gains?

If he invests in some businesses, buys some real estate, makes some loans etc is that all deductable?

Obviously fake losing as much money as possible at gambling! Can play all high rollers etc as you're basically only putting up 60% of the buyin.

You only get 60% of the winnings back, so playing high rollers is now no different to us playing them except your buy in is effectively 40% smaller. 

Deliberately losing in them would be crazy in this situation.   Say you are play a 100k highroller to save 40k tax.  If you deliberately lose,  you are now 60k worse off and not 40k better off.

Lose 100k headup cash to a Brit.

He gives you $95k back. American saves 35k?

Win/win?

[Boba Fett]

win/win until you get audited by the IRS

[SuuPRlim]

Exactly what type of Tax is it? Income tax or capital gains?

If he invests in some businesses, buys some real estate, makes some loans etc is that all deductable?

Obviously fake losing as much money as possible at gambling! Can play all high rollers etc as you're basically only putting up 60% of the buyin.

You only get 60% of the winnings back, so playing high rollers is now no different to us playing them except your buy in is effectively 40% smaller. 

Deliberately losing in them would be crazy in this situation.   Say you are play a 100k highroller to save 40k tax.  If you deliberately lose,  you are now 60k worse off and not 40k better off.

Obviously.

I meant, pretend to sell 80% of yourself in a $100k. You can make text messaged etc.

If you pay ~8% of the winnings in tax, if you lose you only actually put up 60% of the buyin.

OR. You could actually sell 60% of yourself @ spot and do no tax fiddling, and you're on a 24% freeroll. (obviously you would refrain from mentioning the % you sold if you bricked)

[Doobs]

Exactly what type of Tax is it? Income tax or capital gains?

If he invests in some businesses, buys some real estate, makes some loans etc is that all deductable?

Obviously fake losing as much money as possible at gambling! Can play all high rollers etc as you're basically only putting up 60% of the buyin.

You only get 60% of the winnings back, so playing high rollers is now no different to us playing them except your buy in is effectively 40% smaller. 

Deliberately losing in them would be crazy in this situation.   Say you are play a 100k highroller to save 40k tax.  If you deliberately lose,  you are now 60k worse off and not 40k better off.

Obviously.

I meant, pretend to sell 80% of yourself in a $100k. You can make text messaged etc.

If you pay ~8% of the winnings in tax, if you lose you only actually put up 60% of the buyin.

OR. You could actually sell 60% of yourself @ spot and do no tax fiddling, and you're on a 24% freeroll. (obviously you would refrain from mentioning the % you sold if you bricked)

Well, obviously people can dodge taxes, fake receipts, staking etc.

But if you get audited/inspected, you have to find people who you can prove recieved money and have paid the tax.  It is my understanding that you have to name all these people who got paid on your return.  So then you are exposing them to the risk they are liable to tax, could be charged with fraud and so on.

I assume if you try and avoid paying taxes on 6 or 7 figures, there is a non zero chance you end up in prison. 

I don't work for the IRS, but a poker player who has supposedly managed to spew a few million would be pretty suspicious.  Presumably you'd reach the end of the year and whenever you won, you'd be staked and whenever you lost, not so.  Then you'd have big cash transactions with the same people when you weren't staked.   

You have just won millions, why are you trying to screw your life up.

[4KSuited]

A random & probably junior journo at Poker Strategy published a really interesting piece this morning.

The numbers below are what the Finalists won, & how much they were left with after tax. So, for example, the winner "won" $8.15 milly, but after tax he will be left with $4.31 milly.





1st Scott Blumstein $8,150,000       $4,310,571
2nd Dan Ott $4,700,000                 $2,600,194
3rd Benjamin Pollak $3,500,000      $3,500,000
4th John Hesp  $2,600,000            $2,600,000
5th Antoine Saout  $2,000,000       $2,000,000
6th Bryan Piccioli $1,675,000         $791,023
7th Damian Salas $1,425,000         $997,500
8th Jack Sinclair $1,200,000         $1,200,000
9th Ben Lamb $1,000,000             $591,517



You can see the full article here;


https://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/world-of-poker/The-WSOP-Main-Event-final-table-payouts-after-taxes_101565/


Well worth a look.

Surely all Corbyn-voting-UK residents will be self declaring in order to pay tax & NIC since it's their moral responsibility to do so?

A bit hypocritical to do anything else, really.