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Author Topic: Official cryptocurrency thread (Bitcoin, Ethereum, Altcoin)  (Read 304532 times)
bergeroo
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« Reply #510 on: December 15, 2017, 09:41:33 AM »

Really great experiences with the Binance exchange so far. They also promise to give you your new coins when coins fork, unlike some other exchanges. Recommended.
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« Reply #511 on: December 15, 2017, 09:45:06 AM »

The ‘utopian’ currency Bitcoin is a potentially catastrophic energy guzzler -

https://reaction.life/utopian-currency-bitcoin-potentially-catastrophic-energy-guzzler/
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« Reply #512 on: December 15, 2017, 10:08:46 AM »

The ‘utopian’ currency Bitcoin is a potentially catastrophic energy guzzler -

https://reaction.life/utopian-currency-bitcoin-potentially-catastrophic-energy-guzzler/

It's easy to be misinformed by media outlets who don't do any research on crypto.

In response to this article I urge you to watch this 5 minute video:

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« Reply #513 on: December 15, 2017, 10:40:06 AM »


Why do you think this?

I've seen a few people on the internet make this claim - but none of them have given any concrete reasons why they think so.

If you were to just take my word that blockchain technology is going to really take over in the future, that it will be comparable to the internet in terms of technological advancement in the history of mankind, then that is what I base my belief that this is still the beginning. If crypto vanished tomorrow it wouldn't really change a whole lot because the technology behind isn't implemented. This will definitely change.

Surely if the value of cryptocurrencies keep going up (which they need to if they're going to reach that level) - it'll mean it'll never be stable enough to use as an actual currency. And if that's the case - why would it be going up so much?

And if it does become stable enough to use as a currency - why would people choose to do so?

If the value of crypto keeps going up and we have hit the limit in terms of advancement and progress, then yes, this is one massive bubble and the price is going to go up and down like a whores knickers. I am no economist but I would imagine if and when a crypto becomes completely mainstream that the growth would end up being parabolic, as apposed to what currently looks like exponential growth. I don't know what economic problems there might occur, but I think we have to just find out what happens next. We live in a society based on consumerism and over-consumption which has become normal. Personally I find it sickening and worrying the way capitalism is driven by people overspending on things they don't need. I once bought a set of golf tees that were honestly indestructible. I had a small bag last me a whole year, on return to American golf to buy some more the Manager (who am I friends with) laughed and said that "we aren't interested in selling tees that don't break anymore". Personally, I am opposed to over-consumption and wastefulness, it goes completely against human nature and I am also opposed to gluttony. I don't stuff my face, I wear shoes and clothes until they have holes in them. I average a new mobile phone every four years and I drive a relatively efficient car that I will drive into the ground. Perhaps a solution will be that people treasure their belongings and that production of goods will be focused on making products that last forever. Call me a conspiracy theorist but I feel like a lot of things are built to break on purpose to force us to buy new stuff. It seems daft that people spend £500-£1000 on a mobile phone and seem to accept that after 2 years it might not be working anymore. The old adage "They don't build them like they used to" has some merit. We are also shifting more towards greener and economical living. This is a very important shift in our lives since the Industrial revolution in the late 1700's because ever since then we have been extremely unresourceful in favour of technology and industrial advancement

Check out the reddit link I posted, it's very clear to understand but an analogy it uses makes sense to your question "why would people choose to do so?" I will try to mimic the analogy with some extra thoughts:

Along comes TAXIcoin. Programmers create an app on the ethereum blockchain called taxicoin. It is exactly the same as uber but instead it is built on the blockchain. There is no CEO getting huge chunks but instead programmers who will presumably own a small % of coins in circulation with the idea that it will increase in value as their app becomes popular. It will of course have to be the best app with few mistakes along the way because competition is fierce. Currently uber take 20% of each fair, I do believe that in Vegas it's 40% according to an uber guy that probably wanted a tip. In order to use a taxi with taxicoin you will have to obviously use their currency on their app. The biggest difference here is now the taxi is getting a much bigger share whilst using a completely decentralised app. This price of a taxi will never change in terms of USD but as the demand and popularity of the coin increases, the price will go down if you have held some TAXIcoin, these types of people will be people that held interest in the coin perhaps from the ICO stages or somewhere along the way.

Traditional companies will not be able to economically compete and therefore blockchain wins. I can only think that this is why big companies are not shifting over to blockchain yet. It especially makes sense why banks haven't. All the bankers that are filthy rich will have to turn down all their claim to power and wealth in favour of what the people want and deserve, and we all know that ain't gonna happen.

I'm sure the above opens many questions as I've been very broad. I'm also in early stages about learning as much as I can on these topics and therefore I am not really qualified to answer questions that people ask me, but I do my best.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 10:48:59 AM by lucky_scrote » Logged

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« Reply #514 on: December 15, 2017, 10:51:13 AM »


Why do you think this?

I've seen a few people on the internet make this claim - but none of them have given any concrete reasons why they think so.

If you were to just take my word that blockchain technology is going to really take over in the future, that it will be comparable to the internet in terms of technological advancement in the history of mankind, then that is what I base my belief that this is still the beginning. If crypto vanished tomorrow it wouldn't really change a whole lot because the technology behind isn't implemented. This will definitely change.

Surely if the value of cryptocurrencies keep going up (which they need to if they're going to reach that level) - it'll mean it'll never be stable enough to use as an actual currency. And if that's the case - why would it be going up so much?

And if it does become stable enough to use as a currency - why would people choose to do so?

If the value of crypto keeps going up and we have hit the limit in terms of advancement and progress, then yes, this is one massive bubble and the price is going to go up and down like a whores knickers. I am no economist but I would imagine if and when a crypto becomes completely mainstream that the growth would end up being parabolic, as apposed to what currently looks like exponential growth. I don't know what economic problems there might occur, but I think we have to just find out what happens next. We live in a society based on consumerism and over-consumption which has become normal. Personally I find it sickening and worrying the way capitalism is driven by people overspending on things they don't need. I once bought a set of golf tees that were honestly indestructible. I had a small bag last me a whole year, on return to American golf to buy some more the Manager (who am I friends with) laughed and said that "we aren't interested in selling tees that don't break anymore". Personally, I am opposed to over-consumption and wastefulness, it goes completely against human nature and I am also opposed to gluttony. I don't stuff my face, I wear shoes and clothes until they have holes in them. I average a new mobile phone every four years and I drive a relatively efficient car that I will drive into the ground. Perhaps a solution will be that people treasure their belongings and that production of goods will be focused on making products that last forever. Call me a conspiracy theorist but I feel like a lot of things are built to break on purpose to force us to buy new stuff. It seems daft that people spend £500-£1000 on a mobile phone and seem to accept that after 2 years it might not be working anymore. The old adage "They don't build them like they used to" has some merit. We are also shifting more towards greener and economical living. This is a very important shift in our lives since the Industrial revolution in the late 1700's because ever since then we have been extremely unresourceful in favour of technology and industrial advancement

Check out the reddit link I posted, it's very clear to understand but an analogy it uses makes sense to your question "why would people choose to do so?" I will try to mimic the analogy with some extra thoughts:

Along comes TAXIcoin. Programmers create an app on the ethereum blockchain called taxicoin. It is exactly the same as uber but instead it is built on the blockchain. There is no CEO getting huge chunks but instead programmers who will presumably own a small % of coins in circulation with the idea that it will increase in value as their app becomes popular. It will of course have to be the best app with few mistakes along the way because competition is fierce. Currently uber take 20% of each fair, I do believe that in Vegas it's 40% according to an uber guy that probably wanted a tip. In order to use a taxi with taxicoin you will have to obviously use their currency on their app. The biggest difference here is now the taxi is getting a much bigger share whilst using a completely decentralised app. This price of a taxi will never change in terms of USD but as the demand and popularity of the coin increases, the price will go down if you have held some TAXIcoin, these types of people will be people that held interest in the coin perhaps from the ICO stages or somewhere along the way.

Traditional companies will not be able to economically compete and therefore blockchain wins. I can only think that this is why big companies are not shifting over to blockchain yet. It especially makes sense why banks haven't. All the bankers that are filthy rich will have to turn down all their claim to power and wealth in favour of what the people want and deserve, and we all know that ain't gonna happen.

I'm sure the above opens many questions as I've been very broad. I'm also in early stages about learning as much as I can on these topics and therefore I am not really qualified to answer questions that people ask me, but I do my best.

Haha, taxicoin. Ohhh the irony. The cynical side of me says someone is having a giraffe here.

You can harp on about the technology until the cows come home. The reality is the fundamentals are so far detached from the real value of any blockchain application (and half of them are scams) that it can only end in tears.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 10:53:42 AM by acegooner » Logged
lucky_scrote
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« Reply #515 on: December 15, 2017, 10:59:24 AM »


Haha, taxicoin. Ohhh the irony. The cynical side of me says someone is having a giraffe here.

You can harp on about the technology until the cows come home. The reality is the fundamentals are so far detached from the real value of any blockchain application (and half of them are scams) that it can only end in tears.

It was just an analogy, completely made up. I don't quite understand your comment, can you elaborate? Or did you just assume that taxicoin is a real application?
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« Reply #516 on: December 15, 2017, 11:13:30 AM »

Let me get one thing straight since I hate being unbalanced. While I truly believe this is all very innovative, the hype that is following it is quite substantial. When the hype exceeds expectation then there will be blood.

As Andreas Antonopoulos said
Quote
There will be a shakeout. When the waters recede you can tell who on the beach wasn't wearing a swimsuit, they stand there naked, it's an empty promise. This will happen in the blockchain space.

There is a lot of bullshit being peddled to VCS, to investors, to initial coin offerings buyers to uneducated investors, there is a lot of ponzi schemes, there's a lot of pyramid schemed, there's a lot of empty promises. There is also a lot of businesses disguised as innovation disguised as disruptive technology.

To focus on the negatives of this space is cynical and healthy, but to put all your energy into this and dismiss the fact that blockchain has the potential to be as big as people talk about, is completely unfair and to be honest, unwelcome if you're not going to have meaningful input.
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Jon MW
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« Reply #517 on: December 15, 2017, 01:45:40 PM »




Why do you think this?

I've seen a few people on the internet make this claim - but none of them have given any concrete reasons why they think so.

If you were to just take my word that blockchain technology is going to really take over in the future, that it will be comparable to the internet in terms of technological advancement in the history of mankind, then that is what I base my belief that this is still the beginning. If crypto vanished tomorrow it wouldn't really change a whole lot because the technology behind isn't implemented. This will definitely change.
...

The link you provided did backup the previous idea I've seen in this thread and elsewhere that the technology is what is important rather than the cryptocurrency - but that is about the depth I've seen other people explain it; i.e. it just is; seems to be the standard answer.

- - -

...

Surely if the value of cryptocurrencies keep going up (which they need to if they're going to reach that level) - it'll mean it'll never be stable enough to use as an actual currency. And if that's the case - why would it be going up so much?

And if it does become stable enough to use as a currency - why would people choose to do so?

If the value of crypto keeps going up and we have hit the limit in terms of advancement and progress, then yes, this is one massive bubble and the price is going to go up and down like a whores knickers. I am no economist but I would imagine if and when a crypto becomes completely mainstream that the growth would end up being parabolic, as apposed to what currently looks like exponential growth. I don't know what economic problems there might occur, but I think we have to just find out what happens next....
...

But how? How does a crypto become completely mainstream? How does it avoid the contradiction of having to become widely used to have any significance but not being able to be  widely used if it is in the process of doing so?


- - -

...
Check out the reddit link I posted, it's very clear to understand but an analogy it uses makes sense to your question "why would people choose to do so?" I will try to mimic the analogy with some extra thoughts:

Along comes TAXIcoin. Programmers create an app on the ethereum blockchain called taxicoin. It is exactly the same as uber but instead it is built on the blockchain. There is no CEO getting huge chunks but instead programmers who will presumably own a small % of coins in circulation with the idea that it will increase in value as their app becomes popular. It will of course have to be the best app with few mistakes along the way because competition is fierce. Currently uber take 20% of each fair, I do believe that in Vegas it's 40% according to an uber guy that probably wanted a tip. In order to use a taxi with taxicoin you will have to obviously use their currency on their app. The biggest difference here is now the taxi is getting a much bigger share whilst using a completely decentralised app. This price of a taxi will never change in terms of USD but as the demand and popularity of the coin increases, the price will go down if you have held some TAXIcoin, these types of people will be people that held interest in the coin perhaps from the ICO stages or somewhere along the way.

...

I read the reddit - and will come back to some broad points at the end. But in the instance of this specific example:

"In order to use a taxi with taxicoin you will have to obviously use their currency on their app"

You have to buy their currency - which comes back to the over riding question; how can you use it if it's not stable?

"...programmers who will presumably own a small % of coins in circulation with the idea that it will increase in value as their app becomes popular..."

So it's definitely not a stable currency; programmers will only get paid for their work if the currency rises.

It could still work if the price you're paying is less than the mainstream currency cost - but when a hypothetical customer arrives in Las Vegas; why are they going to use TAXIcoin instead of Uber? A $12 cab ride for $10 is competitive enough - but how are they going to know it exists?

The  most obvious way is a load of marketing to raise brand awareness - but who pays for that? The programmers? The person who created the app (if it's not the programmers)?
That's an awful lot of upfront cost for a product they don't know is actually going to take off. It would probably be best mitigated by packaging up the whole operation in a limited liability company so they don't all get stung too badly if it all goes tits up.

But it's a company, they're going to have to start paying wages to anyone doing any of there marketing/HR/etc - probably including themselves; because what are they going to live on before the app goes live and/or gets popular enough for them to actually earn any money from people actually using it.

That's a whole new extra set of costs - you know the best way to recoup that; probably take a percentage of the fare of everyone using the app you gave them. 20% should probably do it.


...

Traditional companies will not be able to economically compete and therefore blockchain wins. I can only think that this is why big companies are not shifting over to blockchain yet.
...

Traditional companies aren't set up to exploit people and milk excess profits (well, in general at least) - they operate in the way they do because that's the most efficient way of doing it. An alternative could be tried - but as I've suggested; it will have all sorts of problems in trying to compete.

Which leads to the broader point; everything that it is suggested blockchain can do and allow - can already be done.

People can already use apps which mean they do what Uber does, without using Uber. The drivers who are using Uber are doing so because they think the extra work provided by the bigger network is going to outweigh the loss of commission.

That Reddit link also mentioned the idea of licensing music directly - so that the middle men don't get a commission
Quote
If a film producer wants to use that song in a movie, they can purchase the rights based on the terms set by the artist who will then get paid directly
  as well as this already being possible; it misses the point. The middlemen aren't paid because they're middlemen - they're paid because they can find the thing the buyer wants and they can often negotiate a higher selling price on behalf of the seller.

It also mentions the insurance idea of paying out automatically if a plane is delayed rather than people having to claim it - as far as I know this isn't being done with mainstream currencies; but it could be. Instead of the blockchain connecting flight information and payment it just needs a connection between flight info and banking info - which they'd have from when the insurance was bought. A similar process is already being used by TFL to reimburse people for delays if they're on Oyster cards.

It also mentions automating paying rent via smart contracts on the blockchain - so basically a direct debit then.

Even the central idea that blockchain is instantaneous compared to the slowness of traditional banking is a bit odd. Almost every transaction in banking is either instantaneous or effectively so (the transaction might not have actually been processed - but to all intents and purposes it can look like it has and be treated by all concerned as it has).

- - -

The recurring problem underlying the whole idea is: what is going to make people change from doing what they're doing now to something new?

Why use cryptocurrency instead of mainstream currency? Why use blockchain rather than the current systems?


FWIW I think the second is more likely, if blockchain is actually more efficient than current systems I could well see organisations adapting it to replace how they currently do things.

If banks could save a fraction of a penny on every transaction by using a blockchain derived system it will be worth billions and have a significant impact on the financial system - but at the moment that's probably the only way I can see this having any long term meaningful impact.
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« Reply #518 on: December 15, 2017, 04:47:42 PM »

The ‘utopian’ currency Bitcoin is a potentially catastrophic energy guzzler -

https://reaction.life/utopian-currency-bitcoin-potentially-catastrophic-energy-guzzler/

It's easy to be misinformed by media outlets who don't do any research on crypto.

In response to this article I urge you to watch this 5 minute video:



That just doesn't stack up at all.  We know 80% of the miners are in China and China produces about 70% of its energy from fossil fuels.  I'd be pretty surprised if the bitcoin miners are far away from that 70%. China doesn't seem the place where it would be easy to cut a deal with a hydro* plant which has excess energy many miles away. 

I do think some of the assumptions in these articles are a bit smetchy too.  Your average Bitcoin farm isn't using 20% more energy the day after the price goes up 20%.  There must be some relationship though, as I am frequently told it isn't profitable to mine at home anymore, and bitcoin is $15k; but it was profitable when bitcoin was $500, and the answer given is energy costs.

* FWIW I went to a hydro electric plant in the summer and they provided electric at peak times and were not on all the time, though guess the Chinese ones are likely different.
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« Reply #519 on: December 15, 2017, 04:55:29 PM »

Mined bitcoins are also rewarded on a logarithmic so the early miners got more reward than the miners today. This will continue to be less until all bitcoins are rewarded and then I can't recall what the plan is.

It's actually kind of funny that the price has risen so much despite holders being diluted every time any amount changes hands. Can you imagine a company that issued more equity every time they sold something (it's bad for shareholders).
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« Reply #520 on: December 16, 2017, 04:07:16 AM »


What a month thats been

When the frenzy hit a month ago just £25 a point on Bitcoin would now be showing profit of £250K

If anyone was now feeling twitchy they could cash in and then let £5 a point ride (let the trend be your friend) and still pocket £163K if the whole thing went tits up

The above is just on Bitcoin never mind about the sensational returns thats been had on Alts

I totally understand where the doubters and gloom merchants have been coming from but things like this rarely appear in life so they have to be grasped when presented

Well done to those on here that had the balls to run with it...sometimes in life you just have to RAISE instead of folding




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« Reply #521 on: December 19, 2017, 01:10:00 AM »

Im surprised this thread hasn't had more attention these past few days.
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« Reply #522 on: December 19, 2017, 01:20:36 AM »

Im surprised this thread hasn't had more attention these past few days.

What's happened?

I only follow this thread Cheesy
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« Reply #523 on: December 19, 2017, 01:31:06 AM »

 Click to see full-size image.
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« Reply #524 on: December 19, 2017, 01:32:37 AM »

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On the march!
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