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Author Topic: Official cryptocurrency thread (Bitcoin, Ethereum, Altcoin)  (Read 256616 times)
neeko
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« Reply #855 on: February 02, 2018, 06:12:55 PM »

This thread persuaded me to buy 0.004 BTC (despite me believing it has zero real value -  but hey it was going to be gutting if it went up ten fold) so it halving has given me loads of reverse shardenfreude , i usually have to play poker to lose money this quickly Smiley
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acegooner
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« Reply #856 on: February 02, 2018, 06:17:30 PM »


And therein lies my point, gold is a store of value. It's been used in this way since the year dot. It has also been a reliable hedge against inflation plus offers inverse correlation when things like recessions and financial crises happen. What that means is generally when the markets fall, gold tends to go the other way as it is seen as a safe haven asset.  
 
Gold is a sensible diversifier away from stocks and shares, bitcoin and its altcoin relations aren't.


Gold is so very established I agree. It's a very safe reliable hedge against inflation and recessions because it's always there. It's properties are what makes it safe.

Bitcoin not being a sensible diversifier away from stocks and shares doesn't mean that it can't be a store of value, or valuated. It has value because we say it has value. The only properties that gold has that trumps bitcoin is the fact it's shiny and has physical properties that can be useful (computer parts, jewellery)


Not only that if there was ever an apocalyptic event, and our civilisation regressed a few thousand years. What is likely to have more intrinsic value, gold or bitcoin?


Now you're just being silly. If there is an apocalpytic event and our civilisation regresses a thousand years then I could care less about a fucking bitcoin. I would imagine gold would be something I would want if this were to happen but I would probably want some roasted lamb a lot more, or a gun. If there is world war 3 and the internet is still up and running around the world then that would be interesting to see which way bitcoin will go.


Bitcoin doesn't behave like a currency and let's face facts it's not a currency in the true sense of the word, there is no price stability.



Actually yes it can behave like a currency, just the price volatility through trading and it's lack of integration makes it unusable for day to day use. This is definitely not an argument against just because it doesn't work yet. When Satoshi Nakomoto created the bitcoin network he showed us that we can have a trustless network where we transfer data to one another through cryptography. It was quickly realised that when you have a network like this we can build a currency on the network. A completely trustless network that follows rules that cannot be broken. This absolutely has utility despite that less than a decade down the line since the network was created, it is encountering countless problems and outrageous volatility. In it's current state it's obviously not going to be a world currency, but to extract the fact that it doesn't act currently like a modern day currency, does not that mean it cannot be a future world currency.



It has value because "we" say it has value. Who are we? There are a lot of people who do think Bitcoin is overvalued, not stupid people either,  plus you have a situation where the late adopters are jumping ship because they cannot stomach the volatility. This is classic bubble behaviour.

Until BTC has some true price stability and mainstream adoption, it cannot be considered any sort of currency. It is merely an inflated asset. With regards to SN's vision, it will never happen, Governments around the world will ensure that if cryptocurrencies are legitimised they will have to adhere to local/international rules on their usage and reporting. You have seen it this week with the Indians announcing that it will do everything to prevent the use of BTC. India has long been known for having a corrupt financial system and a few years ago they banned 500 and 1000 rupee notes in order to stifle the thriving black economy, and address issues with tax evasion. The last thing they want is digital currencies replicating this problem.

India, like South Korea and China is relevant to this conversation because that is where most of the activity in the crypto world takes place (with the exception of the US). China has a debt problem, and I am sure I have mentioned this before they do not want a financial crisis similar to the one we had in the West 10 years ago. The Chinese for the last few decades have used leveraging to buy into property, stocks and now cryptocurrencies.

Whilst we are on the subject of debts, I saw a commentary from Mastercard who said their profits have increased on the back of people using their cards to fund the purchase of cryptocurrencies. So when you use the term "we" you have to remember not everyone has bought into the concept/principles envisaged by SN when he conceived BTC. Utopia doesn't exist in our world.    

  
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 06:37:03 PM by acegooner » Logged
acegooner
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« Reply #857 on: February 02, 2018, 06:28:57 PM »

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lucky_scrote
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« Reply #858 on: February 02, 2018, 07:43:02 PM »

You cannot shut down the bitcoin network, just like the internet. Governments can regulate as much as they like, but bitcoins heart will still beat. One of the greatest attractions to bitcoin is its decentralised nature and separation from state. If and when governments clamp down harder it will hurt the price in the short term, but as more and more people find privacy and control important, we will see further implementation. Just remember, bitcoin cannot be stopped, the governments trying to clasp it will be like trying to hold on to a lathered soap with rubber gloves. The tighter you squeeze the harder it is to hold.

A lot of people have said bitcoin will fall and a lot of people have said its the future so I'm not too interested anymore if a particular person says bitcoin is garbage or the future.
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acegooner
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« Reply #859 on: February 02, 2018, 08:40:52 PM »

You cannot shut down the bitcoin network, just like the internet. Governments can regulate as much as they like, but bitcoins heart will still beat. One of the greatest attractions to bitcoin is its decentralised nature and separation from state. If and when governments clamp down harder it will hurt the price in the short term, but as more and more people find privacy and control important, we will see further implementation. Just remember, bitcoin cannot be stopped, the governments trying to clasp it will be like trying to hold on to a lathered soap with rubber gloves. The tighter you squeeze the harder it is to hold.

A lot of people have said bitcoin will fall and a lot of people have said its the future so I'm not too interested anymore if a particular person says bitcoin is garbage or the future.

Of course you can shut down Bitcoin, if the G20 say at their next summit we plan to make BTC illegal then it's finished. However, practically speaking, that is not going to happen.

Like it or not regulation will dictate the path of cryptocurrencies, it will also bring them down to more reasonable valuations and we can then focus on what uses the underlying technology can play in our lives. I have mentioned a company called Blue Prism before on the share thread, they are a British company at the forefront of Robotic Process Automation and AI. It is this sort of disruptive technology that will change our lives, not a bunch of currencies that are dressed up to be the next get rich quick scheme.
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lucky_scrote
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« Reply #860 on: February 02, 2018, 10:02:06 PM »

Sorry but I've tried to see both sides and have opinions kept away from as many posts as possible, but you're very wrong indeed. You have no iota about blockchain and cryptocurrency and even worse are too stubborn to see that.
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acegooner
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« Reply #861 on: February 03, 2018, 08:52:06 AM »

Sorry but I've tried to see both sides and have opinions kept away from as many posts as possible, but you're very wrong indeed. You have no iota about blockchain and cryptocurrency and even worse are too stubborn to see that.

And you are totally in denial that the value of these currencies is ridiculously inflated. A lack of basic understanding of different types of investment risk be it geopolitical, systemic risk, money laundering etc etc. The list goes on.

For a fact Governments, do not like what is going on with people being exposed to scam after scam almost on a weekly basis. If you honestly think that cryptocurrencies are on a libertarian march to utopia, then you truly are deluded. I have never said that blockchain has no use in the real world, and my focus has been more on the inflated valuations more than anything else.

You had the bare faced cheek at the beginning of this conversation to suggest that I do not understand investments, it's clear who doesn't know what they are really talking about. Investing in cryptocurrencies is the equivalent of taking crack cocaine, before you even try some of the milder stuff.

It really is the blind leading the blind, none of you can accept what some highly successful investment guru's have said about crypto's. That in my opinion is nothing short of sheer arrogance.
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lucky_scrote
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« Reply #862 on: February 03, 2018, 09:18:52 AM »

I have not argued about how to invest so I cannot be told about my lacking of investment skills.

I have not pressed the point that bitcoin et al are underpriced so you cannot call me dillusional.

People are not being led into scam after scam, this detracts us from the point of this thread. We are focussing on the technology here, however in such a new and unregulated market it is going to happen. I have tried to post measures for people to protect themselves.

I have never once told you that you do not understand investments, in fact I have learned some things from your postings in this thread and even asked you honest questions.

What I do know about investing in cryptos is in line with what a lot of people say. It is risky, it is volatile and you cannot expect results.

And no, governments cannot shut down bitcoin. It has no central point of attack. You can regulate it in to the ground and ban all trading of it, but it will not stop people. It has massive use in progression in technology and its current best use is building a network of store and exchange of trusted information that has not been possible before. Its current best use is to build a currency in the backbone of it and it will continue to thrive as long as there are internet connections available in the world.


I've not directed this thread towards investment nor have I dismissed your knowledge of investment or abilities, but this is a thread about Cryptocurrencies. While your posts have been amusing, I think it's only fair that you post on topic and not spinning each post in to something about yourself and away from Cryptocurrencies. We get it, you think they are a scam. Now move on.

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SuperJez
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« Reply #863 on: February 03, 2018, 09:34:03 AM »

acegooner you are getting out of line here.   Just making things up.

Quote
A lack of basic understanding of different types of investment risk be it geopolitical, systemic risk, money laundering etc etc. The list goes on.

As far as I can see luckyscrote has stressed everybody should research themselves and understand fully what they are getting into before buying any cryptos.  He also seems well aware of the risks involved.  Accusing him of a "lack of basic understanding" of investment risk is just plain wrong and inflammatory.


Quote
You had the bare faced cheek at the beginning of this conversation to suggest that I do not understand investments,

Where exactly was that said?  You have just made that up.  It has been suggested you don't understand cryptos but never normal investments.

Quote
it's clear who doesn't know what they are really talking about.

When it comes to cryptos, you are correct on that one.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 09:38:21 AM by SuperJez » Logged
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« Reply #864 on: February 03, 2018, 09:37:42 AM »

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byronkincaid
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« Reply #865 on: February 03, 2018, 09:47:33 AM »

This is a gambling website and crypto is fun to gamble on. I wouldn't go onto the T4T thread and start telling them not to bet sports:)

We seem to have gone from "there are no fundamentals, this stuff is impossible to value" to "this stuff is ridiculously overvalued". If a whole bunch of people are currently paying $8500 for a bitcoin then that's what it's worth.   

Whether we are getting massive market manipulation from spoofy, bitfinex, tether however is very interesting and worthy of discussion.

The argument that I find most persuasive for BTC is that we are heading towards a cashless society and if your bank account gets shut down for any reason (weren't HSBC closing pro gamblers accounts a while ago?) or you want to make any kind of anonymous transaction BTC or something like it might come in very useful.

Acegooner genuinely interested to know your thoughts about whether it's better to be in cash or gold when stock markets are falling. Trading God that I am I sold my crypto trackers for a mighty £100 profit and have now got a few spare grand in my SIPP doing nothing. Lots of people saying it's good to be holding cash ATM though.

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acegooner
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« Reply #866 on: February 03, 2018, 09:49:26 AM »

I have not argued about how to invest so I cannot be told about my lacking of investment skills.

I have not pressed the point that bitcoin et al are underpriced so you cannot call me dillusional.

People are not being led into scam after scam, this detracts us from the point of this thread. We are focussing on the technology here, however in such a new and unregulated market it is going to happen. I have tried to post measures for people to protect themselves.

I have never once told you that you do not understand investments, in fact I have learned some things from your postings in this thread and even asked you honest questions.

What I do know about investing in cryptos is in line with what a lot of people say. It is risky, it is volatile and you cannot expect results.

And no, governments cannot shut down bitcoin. It has no central point of attack. You can regulate it in to the ground and ban all trading of it, but it will not stop people. It has massive use in progression in technology and its current best use is building a network of store and exchange of trusted information that has not been possible before. Its current best use is to build a currency in the backbone of it and it will continue to thrive as long as there are internet connections available in the world.


I've not directed this thread towards investment nor have I dismissed your knowledge of investment or abilities, but this is a thread about Cryptocurrencies. While your posts have been amusing, I think it's only fair that you post on topic and not spinning each post in to something about yourself and away from Cryptocurrencies. We get it, you think they are a scam. Now move on.



It's impossible to have a debate with you, I have rarely seen such denial. This thread is as much about making money out of cryptocurrencies as it is about the underlying tech. You can't accept that they go hand in hand, are you seriously trying to tell me if they didn't have any inherent value that you would be in anyway interested in them.

BTW you did question my credentials for making investment commentaries many months ago, when you got short shrift you didn't like it. There's no point in having a debate with someone who just seems to thrive on confirmation bias, but hey that's cryptos in a nutshell. It's almost like being results orientated in poker, when your 72o hits that one time its a great play right Smiley.

 

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tikay
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« Reply #867 on: February 03, 2018, 09:52:13 AM »


I know we all have very different views on this, but its a great thread thanks to contributions from both sides, so if we could respect each other, if not each other's views, it'd be good.
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acegooner
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« Reply #868 on: February 03, 2018, 09:59:03 AM »

This is a gambling website and crypto is fun to gamble on. I wouldn't go onto the T4T thread and start telling them not to bet sports:)

We seem to have gone from "there are no fundamentals, this stuff is impossible to value" to "this stuff is ridiculously overvalued". If a whole bunch of people are currently paying $8500 for a bitcoin then that's what it's worth.   

Whether we are getting massive market manipulation from spoofy, bitfinex, tether however is very interesting and worthy of discussion.

The argument that I find most persuasive for BTC is that we are heading towards a cashless society and if your bank account gets shut down for any reason (weren't HSBC closing pro gamblers accounts a while ago?) or you want to make any kind of anonymous transaction BTC or something like it might come in very useful.

Acegooner genuinely interested to know your thoughts about whether it's better to be in cash or gold when stock markets are falling. Trading God that I am I sold my crypto trackers for a mighty £100 profit and have now got a few spare grand in my SIPP doing nothing. Lots of people saying it's good to be holding cash ATM though.



And you have hit the nail right on the head. It is what people are prepared to pay for it, but it doesn't make it good value.

With regards to stock market diversification. I hold 8% of my portfolio currently in cash, 10% in bonds and 10% in gold through a physical ETF. The rest is in equities. As I mentioned earlier, gold is a good hedge against equities. That is to say when the stock markets go into a bear market, invariably gold tends to go the other way.

The problem with holding cash as opposed to Gold, is that in real terms it loses value. That is because interest rates on deposits at present are much lower than the rate of inflation. Gold is seen as a good hedge against inflation (at least it has been in the past).
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byronkincaid
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« Reply #869 on: February 03, 2018, 10:08:59 AM »

This is a gambling website and crypto is fun to gamble on. I wouldn't go onto the T4T thread and start telling them not to bet sports:)

We seem to have gone from "there are no fundamentals, this stuff is impossible to value" to "this stuff is ridiculously overvalued". If a whole bunch of people are currently paying $8500 for a bitcoin then that's what it's worth.   

Whether we are getting massive market manipulation from spoofy, bitfinex, tether however is very interesting and worthy of discussion.

The argument that I find most persuasive for BTC is that we are heading towards a cashless society and if your bank account gets shut down for any reason (weren't HSBC closing pro gamblers accounts a while ago?) or you want to make any kind of anonymous transaction BTC or something like it might come in very useful.

Acegooner genuinely interested to know your thoughts about whether it's better to be in cash or gold when stock markets are falling. Trading God that I am I sold my crypto trackers for a mighty £100 profit and have now got a few spare grand in my SIPP doing nothing. Lots of people saying it's good to be holding cash ATM though.



And you have hit the nail right on the head. It is what people are prepared to pay for it, but it doesn't make it good value.

With regards to stock market diversification. I hold 8% of my portfolio currently in cash, 10% in bonds and 10% in gold through a physical ETF. The rest is in equities. As I mentioned earlier, gold is a good hedge against equities. That is to say when the stock markets go into a bear market, invariably gold tends to go the other way.

The problem with holding cash as opposed to Gold, is that in real terms it loses value. That is because interest rates on deposits at present are much lower than the rate of inflation. Gold is seen as a good hedge against inflation (at least it has been in the past).

Thanks for the reply. SGLN still the cheapest physical gold ETF at 0.25%? I did have some a few years ago but got bored with it and sold at a loss. More proof of my trading Godliness.
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