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Author Topic: Not such a benign opinion  (Read 2837 times)
teddybloat
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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2017, 08:47:32 AM »

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I suspect if some of you had a relative or friend murdered, your stance may also change somewhat.

why would that even matter?

even if it were true all that would mean is that you have lost some objectivity.

and it's not always true:  anthony walkers' mother and jimmy mizen's parents for example, publically forgave their son's killers -  there have been dozens of similar example over the last few years.

i bet you could find examples of vicitms of lesser crimes than murder who would want the offenders executed.

its why we strive for objectivity and have judges decide sentences instead of family members.

-----


also, despite the guff you read in the papers, prisons are a brutalising place. violence is rife, they are dangerously overcrowded and it's not unusual to be locked in your cell for 23 hours a day.

i dont want to derail but a shift to smaller prisions built in the community that have zero focus on punishment would do wonders for this country
« Last Edit: August 06, 2017, 08:50:48 AM by teddybloat » Logged
SuuPRlim
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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2017, 10:02:09 AM »

Pretty sure OP meant a utopian situation where if you murder someone you just die on the spot with zero chance of mistakes?

Would probably put a few people off!

Obviously in for that, self defence is ok though? Like if someone is trying to kill/harm you and bash him over the head with something and he dies?
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teddybloat
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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2017, 10:04:31 AM »

if we're messing with omnipotence and omniscience why not set the utopian interjection to make someone unconscious right before they kill someone, so they, you know, dont kill them...
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SuuPRlim
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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2017, 10:17:04 AM »

Surprised no one criticising second opinion

Think most people probably hold a more tepid version of that, whereby if you have only just gone on benefits you shouldn't accept the first job offered, but once a certain amount of time has passed, beggers cant be choosers, as it were.

Obviously assuming said person is able to work etc

I'm pretty ignorant in general r.e this stuff but the problem seems to be one of those ideological vs practical ones where its difficult to argue with hardline views on this in theory except by just saying "how the hell would you do that?"

Seems from a pretty uneducated opinion that a welfare system that genuinely protects people in our country who need and deserve protecting, with the resources we have, whilst at the same time being completely protected from abuse is close to impossible, or at the very least so difficult that decades of trying from intelligent people have never figured it out. I'd defo have a system that looks after who it looks after and gets abused some than one that doesn't look after people.

I remember an example from a few years ago this girl worked for me, she was ~26-30 and had two kids, the Dad was in prison and by all accounts not the most pleasant of fellows, she worked 16 hours a week for me but wanted to do 26, however we sat and worked it out and because her child benefits and tax allowance was reduced as she worked over 16 hours a week, her NET income all in was actually reduced when she worked 17-22 hours a week, and by the time she worked 26 hours she was less than £20 better off. So she wanted to work more but the benefits system set up in such a way that she was actually penalised for wanting to work. This girl ticked every box as someone she we should be looking after as well.

This must have been 2014 so no idea if its still the same as the spot never came up again but that's gotta be a huge blunder surely?

Also - the media doesn't help with this subject AT ALL I don't blame people who graft their bollocks off year on year and net £18k and then read a headline like "Benefits family of 6 gets £21k p/yr in benefits" getting furious. Shows like Britian on Benefits etc where these families brag about how they get X Y and Z paid for, but just look at these people, they are miserable, live in a shit-hole and yeah they get their lives paid for somewhat unfairly but I'd say it's a pretty horrible way to live and just with the freedom and sense of well being you get by funding your own life makes people even making the same money as these guys are substantially better off.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2017, 10:40:52 AM »

Surprised no one criticising second opinion

Think most people probably hold a more tepid version of that, whereby if you have only just gone on benefits you shouldn't accept the first job offered, but once a certain amount of time has passed, beggers cant be choosers, as it were.

Obviously assuming said person is able to work etc

I'm pretty ignorant in general r.e this stuff but the problem seems to be one of those ideological vs practical ones where its difficult to argue with hardline views on this in theory except by just saying "how the hell would you do that?"

Seems from a pretty uneducated opinion that a welfare system that genuinely protects people in our country who need and deserve protecting, with the resources we have, whilst at the same time being completely protected from abuse is close to impossible, or at the very least so difficult that decades of trying from intelligent people have never figured it out. I'd defo have a system that looks after who it looks after and gets abused some than one that doesn't look after people.

I remember an example from a few years ago this girl worked for me, she was ~26-30 and had two kids, the Dad was in prison and by all accounts not the most pleasant of fellows, she worked 16 hours a week for me but wanted to do 26, however we sat and worked it out and because her child benefits and tax allowance was reduced as she worked over 16 hours a week, her NET income all in was actually reduced when she worked 17-22 hours a week, and by the time she worked 26 hours she was less than £20 better off. So she wanted to work more but the benefits system set up in such a way that she was actually penalised for wanting to work. This girl ticked every box as someone she we should be looking after as well.

This must have been 2014 so no idea if its still the same as the spot never came up again but that's gotta be a huge blunder surely?

Also - the media doesn't help with this subject AT ALL I don't blame people who graft their bollocks off year on year and net £18k and then read a headline like "Benefits family of 6 gets £21k p/yr in benefits" getting furious. Shows like Britian on Benefits etc where these families brag about how they get X Y and Z paid for, but just look at these people, they are miserable, live in a shit-hole and yeah they get their lives paid for somewhat unfairly but I'd say it's a pretty horrible way to live and just with the freedom and sense of well being you get by funding your own life makes people even making the same money as these guys are substantially better off.

Really good post. If we could wipe the Daily Mail/Express 'understanding' of the benefits problem from the national consciousness and replace it with this, we'd have a chance of making things better.
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