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UgotNuts
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« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2018, 01:56:42 PM »

@PokerPops!

I agree with you.  PP have staked pros playing. I guess Technically they are just increasing the amount of sponsored pros in the tournament. I read the thread and understood it to be saying that the players that are being put in have an unfair advantage due to being staked. Rather than should PP be reducing overlays by the method of putting more players in. Most of the field are staked or have swapped action with someone. So for me the environment is just the norm. Everyone still wants to win and plays there cards how they think they should be played.
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Pokerpops
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« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2018, 06:50:49 PM »

@PokerPops!

I agree with you.  PP have staked pros playing. I guess Technically they are just increasing the amount of sponsored pros in the tournament. I read the thread and understood it to be saying that the players that are being put in have an unfair advantage due to being staked. Rather than should PP be reducing overlays by the method of putting more players in. Most of the field are staked or have swapped action with someone. So for me the environment is just the norm. Everyone still wants to win and plays there cards how they think they should be played.

Selling a bit of yourself to mates, or swapping a piece with a friend are very different to being one of dozens of players inserted into a tournament by a mate of the promoter where the source of the buyin and the destination of any returns is clouded in uncertainty.
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« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2018, 07:11:50 PM »

Not sure about that. We know they are going to PP and BRS, split with the player. :-)
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« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2018, 08:30:33 PM »

If guys are being put into party poker tournamanets where there is an overlay and then playing splashy wouldn’t this be counter productive on the reason party poker put them in? They put them in to win back a slice of the overlay, by them getting it in as underdogs won’t show a high ROI on Party’s investment. And if they are playing a lose aggressive style then I trust people playing £500+ tournaments to be able to adjust there game accordingly and not overplay one pair hands? I played the Side events at Millions Nottingham this year and like every poker player has experienced had my AQ lose to a a lose aggressive guy/girl who deceived A7 suited was good enough to call a  3 bet and then flop top 2 vs my top pair. It happens all the time and will continue to. Maybe investing a year or so savings in a high variance game just isn’t the best thing to do if you won’t be happy with being outdrawn or outplayed.

Most of the players are put in to these by stables, staking threads, or by selling to friends and family.

I understand however when friends or stable mates are soft playing as that is just against the rules of the game and I witness it all the time in online Sats on PP and Starts. Nothing gets done about it which is wrong. So I just don’t play them any more.

Rant over I guess. And I guess the point I am making if you don’t like the conditions for whatever reason just don’t play.  We should try to promote the game for the right reasons and not put it down due to a bad beat.



But if you get to sit at a table where loose and splashy is getting it in with A-7 that’s a big advantage for you. If I’m at a table where the operator isn’t providing me with opportunities at loose and splashy chips then that means I’m at a disadvantage. My preference is for others not to have an unfair advantage over me.

It doesn’t actually matter how loose and splashy/tight and aggressive or whatever they are.

Nobody puts a gun to the head of the promoter and forces them to have overly ambitious guarantees. If they miss the guarantee then that’s their mistake and is at their cost.
If a £5000 entry with £5,000,000 gtee gets 800 runners then those 800 share the benefit of the overlay between them. Effectively they have bought a £6250 ticket at a reduced price.

If the organiser inserts an extra 200 runners on an incentivised basis then the added value for the 800 is removed. It doesn’t matter how they were added, if there was any form of incentive to them, even just travel cost reimbursement, they are taking value from those who have had their potential return reduced.



You are looking at it wrong. Overlays are not good. But big guarantees are.

Using your example. If a 5k buy in 5 million guarantee overlays by a million then the organisers are likely to reduce the guarantee next stop to let's say 4 million. But alternatively, the sponsor/owner/BRS/whoever can put an extra 200 players in the tournament to make the guarantee.

In the first example we have an 800 runner field, which may or may not be good value.
In the second example we have a 1000 runner field, the prizepool is one million bigger and we have 200 extra players, who couldn't afford to buy in for 5k and who failed to satellite in for whatever reason, who are possibly backed, maybe not cash rich, quite possibly not much experience of playing buyins as big as 5k.

I like those additional 200 people in the field and the boosted prizepool, it doesn't really matter to me how they got in there, but they make the tournament better.
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Pokerpops
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« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2018, 11:24:46 PM »

If guys are being put into party poker tournamanets where there is an overlay and then playing splashy wouldn’t this be counter productive on the reason party poker put them in? They put them in to win back a slice of the overlay, by them getting it in as underdogs won’t show a high ROI on Party’s investment. And if they are playing a lose aggressive style then I trust people playing £500+ tournaments to be able to adjust there game accordingly and not overplay one pair hands? I played the Side events at Millions Nottingham this year and like every poker player has experienced had my AQ lose to a a lose aggressive guy/girl who deceived A7 suited was good enough to call a  3 bet and then flop top 2 vs my top pair. It happens all the time and will continue to. Maybe investing a year or so savings in a high variance game just isn’t the best thing to do if you won’t be happy with being outdrawn or outplayed.

Most of the players are put in to these by stables, staking threads, or by selling to friends and family.

I understand however when friends or stable mates are soft playing as that is just against the rules of the game and I witness it all the time in online Sats on PP and Starts. Nothing gets done about it which is wrong. So I just don’t play them any more.

Rant over I guess. And I guess the point I am making if you don’t like the conditions for whatever reason just don’t play.  We should try to promote the game for the right reasons and not put it down due to a bad beat.



But if you get to sit at a table where loose and splashy is getting it in with A-7 that’s a big advantage for you. If I’m at a table where the operator isn’t providing me with opportunities at loose and splashy chips then that means I’m at a disadvantage. My preference is for others not to have an unfair advantage over me.

It doesn’t actually matter how loose and splashy/tight and aggressive or whatever they are.

Nobody puts a gun to the head of the promoter and forces them to have overly ambitious guarantees. If they miss the guarantee then that’s their mistake and is at their cost.
If a £5000 entry with £5,000,000 gtee gets 800 runners then those 800 share the benefit of the overlay between them. Effectively they have bought a £6250 ticket at a reduced price.

If the organiser inserts an extra 200 runners on an incentivised basis then the added value for the 800 is removed. It doesn’t matter how they were added, if there was any form of incentive to them, even just travel cost reimbursement, they are taking value from those who have had their potential return reduced.



You are looking at it wrong. Overlays are not good. But big guarantees are.

Using your example. If a 5k buy in 5 million guarantee overlays by a million then the organisers are likely to reduce the guarantee next stop to let's say 4 million. But alternatively, the sponsor/owner/BRS/whoever can put an extra 200 players in the tournament to make the guarantee.

In the first example we have an 800 runner field, which may or may not be good value.
In the second example we have a 1000 runner field, the prizepool is one million bigger and we have 200 extra players, who couldn't afford to buy in for 5k and who failed to satellite in for whatever reason, who are possibly backed, maybe not cash rich, quite possibly not much experience of playing buyins as big as 5k.

I like those additional 200 people in the field and the boosted prizepool, it doesn't really matter to me how they got in there, but they make the tournament better.

How would you feel if those additional people were all pros? Let’s say they include Trickett, Toby Lewis, Pads, Fedor Holz, and a host of top tournament players.
Let’s then say that the organisation responsible for the guarantee now has 20% of the field in play, and a financial interest in the results of those players.
How would you feel about stumping up your own cash to enter?
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« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2018, 11:45:49 PM »

I think the point here is if they are good players they would already be in the field. I have never seen the floor siding with a Pro in the laws of the game in any PP Live event and I have now played in 3.
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« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2018, 11:54:24 PM »

If they made it clear up front that it was £5M guaranteed but with a zero chance of an overlay then it would be fine.

What they actually do is advertise the 'incredible value' and 'huge potential overlays' all over facebook to get people in to the tournament knowing full well that there won't be one.

All they need to do is be transparent and let people know that it's a £5M guarantee but they'll be putting their own players in on some kind of split to ensure that it actually gets the runners necessary to make the guarantee.

It's all about transparency. Let people know what they're getting in to up front and nobody can ever complain. Any kind of sneakiness in there will always upset a few folk.

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pleno1
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« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2018, 03:58:04 AM »

There’s so many illogical and untruthful thoughts around all these talks. Not wanting to get it in against people with bad hands being the most obvious one. You’re there to win the tournament or progress in the tournament you have to gain chips, poker is tougher every year being to gain chips, especially if you’re an amateur who is a dog in the field is tough right? If somebody is actually playing like this it will be the easiest way for anybody to gain chips and progress in the tournament.  Somebody talked about a 5000 ticket being worth 6250 well if somebody is going all in with 30% equity against you then guess what your “ticket” will be worth around 5250! There’s probably a blackjack or roulette analogy but I’m tired.

If they made it clear up front that it was £5M guaranteed but with a zero chance of an overlay then it would be fine.

What they actually do is advertise the 'incredible value' and 'huge potential overlays' all over facebook to get people in to the tournament knowing full well that there won't be one.

All they need to do is be transparent and let people know that it's a £5M guarantee but they'll be putting their own players in on some kind of split to ensure that it actually gets the runners necessary to make the guarantee.

It's all about transparency. Let people know what they're getting in to up front and nobody can ever complain. Any kind of sneakiness in there will always upset a few folk.



No offence but I would be playing for 100% of myself as would Fedor, Trickett or whoever else were not going to try and take some small freeroll deal.

If they made it clear up front that it was £5M guaranteed but with a zero chance of an overlay then it would be fine.

What they actually do is advertise the 'incredible value' and 'huge potential overlays' all over facebook to get people in to the tournament knowing full well that there won't be one.

All they need to do is be transparent and let people know that it's a £5M guarantee but they'll be putting their own players in on some kind of split to ensure that it actually gets the runners necessary to make the guarantee.

It's all about transparency. Let people know what they're getting in to up front and nobody can ever complain. Any kind of sneakiness in there will always upset a few folk.



Of course some overlays hit mate but many, many don’t. Online on daily basis you will find 5+ tournaments with overlay, last week in Canada I think there was 1m overlay, I would say that there has probably been 100,000% more overlays in party tournaments than any other brand, it’s not really up for debate there are many tournaments in a regular basis that have big added value from overlay. 
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« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2018, 04:02:18 AM »

I actually am not that fussed by this and maybe I should be.

They havnt seen my hole cards or anything, they just are staked into the games and instead of a random backer getting it the company does. Ive gone deep and even won some of the non live party events and Im pretty happy that the guarentees are artifically inflated!

How can you not be concerned by effectively having a team of players all allegedly under the instruction to play as a team?

What do you mean as a team? They are playing individually right? They aren’t showing each other their cards and if they are then it doesn’t have anything about being in a stable or whatever. There has been cheats, there are cheats and there will be cheats in the future. Just because somebody is staked doesn’t mean they are cheats. When Cos and the guys were staked by Blatchly you guys didn’t think they would cheat together right? It’s the same thing here.


Of course you want be facing bad players - until you get smashed in the face by their aggregated variance. There's a post on the 2+2 thread by a guy who played a series of comps on his own dime for c.£12k that struck a chord with me. If the game is going get back to any kind of health, surely the serious recs (like that guy and me) need to be nurtured rather than enraged.

“Of course you want to play bad players, till you lose” surely you can see the illogical sense behind this? What would you rather face? Somebody playing well?
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« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2018, 08:07:06 AM »

We would rather be playing an empty seat and there still being 5k in the prizepool
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Pokerpops
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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2018, 08:49:52 AM »

I think the point here is if they are good players they would already be in the field. I have never seen the floor siding with a Pro in the laws of the game in any PP Live event and I have now played in 3.

Yeah, of course they would, maybe even firing a few bullets each. Totally just value hunting. No little deals with subsidised travel and accom. Absolutely open and above board. Transparent. Even when they are firing their sixth or seventh bullet at the point where the overlay is now insignificant. Entering with 30BB because their skill edge is so great that they can still be +EV.

I’m with Ledders on this
We would rather be playing an empty seat and there still being 5k in the prizepool


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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2018, 10:01:26 AM »

If they made it clear up front that it was £5M guaranteed but with a zero chance of an overlay then it would be fine.

What they actually do is advertise the 'incredible value' and 'huge potential overlays' all over facebook to get people in to the tournament knowing full well that there won't be one.

All they need to do is be transparent and let people know that it's a £5M guarantee but they'll be putting their own players in on some kind of split to ensure that it actually gets the runners necessary to make the guarantee.

It's all about transparency. Let people know what they're getting in to up front and nobody can ever complain. Any kind of sneakiness in there will always upset a few folk.



Of course some overlays hit mate but many, many don’t. Online on daily basis you will find 5+ tournaments with overlay, last week in Canada I think there was 1m overlay, I would say that there has probably been 100,000% more overlays in party tournaments than any other brand, it’s not really up for debate there are many tournaments in a regular basis that have big added value from overlay. 

Sorry I was mainly referring to the specific £5M guarantee tournament and also the live tournaments I regularly see promoted on facebook which are generally the DTD ones.

I wasn't really talking about online as I don't see the info for those tournaments so don't have any knowledge of what goes on. I did read the 2p2 thread though and saw the following post which really paints a bad picture all being within 2% of the exact number of runners required to hit the guarantee:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
There is definitely something odd going on with respect to field sizes.

$55 $10k - 198 runners
$109 $50k - 497 runners
$55 $25k - 494 runners
$530 $100k - 196 runners
$530 $40k - 80 runners
$109 $40k - 399 runners
$215 $100k - 494 runners

And looking at yesterday's fields it is a similar story
This is not normal at all, never used to happen. What's the deal?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This person may have been cherry picking of course but I read it as though this was the tournaments from one specific day. When I used to play on stars it was never like this, pretty much every tournament hit the guarantee but there was never a noticeable pattern of them being this close.

Anyone with a suspicious mind might well think there was a pool of players just sat there waiting with their tournament dollars to buy in at the last minute if they were needed to make up the numbers. There might even be someone instructing these players which tournaments to sign up for? The posts from ex BRS players seem to suggest that this was the case.

I'd like to take the unders on 100000% if I may please although we'll have to specify over how much time. Are we including the penny rolls and $1.10 tournaments here? I'll admit that they overlay quite frequently so would probably skew thing in your favour.


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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2018, 10:35:18 AM »


If they made it clear up front that it was £5M guaranteed but with a zero chance of an overlay then it would be fine.

What they actually do is advertise the 'incredible value' and 'huge potential overlays' all over facebook to get people in to the tournament knowing full well that there won't be one.

All they need to do is be transparent and let people know that it's a £5M guarantee but they'll be putting their own players in on some kind of split to ensure that it actually gets the runners necessary to make the guarantee.

It's all about transparency. Let people know what they're getting in to up front and nobody can ever complain. Any kind of sneakiness in there will always upset a few folk.



Of course some overlays hit mate but many, many don’t. Online on daily basis you will find 5+ tournaments with overlay, last week in Canada I think there was 1m overlay, I would say that there has probably been 100,000% more overlays in party tournaments than any other brand, it’s not really up for debate there are many tournaments in a regular basis that have big added value from overlay. 

Sorry I was mainly referring to the specific £5M guarantee tournament and also the live tournaments I regularly see promoted on facebook which are generally the DTD ones.

I wasn't really talking about online as I don't see the info for those tournaments so don't have any knowledge of what goes on. I did read the 2p2 thread though and saw the following post which really paints a bad picture all being within 2% of the exact number of runners required to hit the guarantee:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
There is definitely something odd going on with respect to field sizes.

$55 $10k - 198 runners
$109 $50k - 497 runners
$55 $25k - 494 runners
$530 $100k - 196 runners
$530 $40k - 80 runners
$109 $40k - 399 runners
$215 $100k - 494 runners

And looking at yesterday's fields it is a similar story
This is not normal at all, never used to happen. What's the deal?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This person may have been cherry picking of course but I read it as though this was the tournaments from one specific day. When I used to play on stars it was never like this, pretty much every tournament hit the guarantee but there was never a noticeable pattern of them being this close.

Anyone with a suspicious mind might well think there was a pool of players just sat there waiting with their tournament dollars to buy in at the last minute if they were needed to make up the numbers. There might even be someone instructing these players which tournaments to sign up for? The posts from ex BRS players seem to suggest that this was the case.

I'd like to take the unders on 100000% if I may please although we'll have to specify over how much time. Are we including the penny rolls and $1.10 tournaments here? I'll admit that they overlay quite frequently so would probably skew thing in your favour.




Comparing this to stars is comparing apples and pears.   Stars rarely makes an effort to increase guarantees and cuts them pretty quick these days.   I mostly play O8, but can say in that game on Stars, they were cutting guarantees so far, and so regularly, tournaments just disappeared.   I think a better comparison would be with Sky who are a bit more daring than Stars with guarantees, but even then, thet aren't pushing guarantees up like Party have been.  Sure somebody could paste the Sky numbers here from their latest UKOPS and a fair few are likely to be close to the guarantee.

Whilst the BRS theory is a reasonably hypothesis, you can also see Sky and Party pros/PR tweeting about overlays to close guarantees.  It just takes one big stable to realise an overlay could be on, and an overlay gets closed.  Then you get people like me who are far more likely to re-enter if the guarantee will be close.  There have also been posts on here mentioning overlays are possible/probably in various live tournaments.  Add in a few random regs ringing up mates and you get the same pattern of entries close to the guarantee.  Of there is a possible overlay, pros sniff it out and enter accordingly.



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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2018, 01:57:30 PM »

I actually am not that fussed by this and maybe I should be.

They havnt seen my hole cards or anything, they just are staked into the games and instead of a random backer getting it the company does. Ive gone deep and even won some of the non live party events and Im pretty happy that the guarentees are artifically inflated!

How can you not be concerned by effectively having a team of players all allegedly under the instruction to play as a team?

What do you mean as a team? They are playing individually right? They aren’t showing each other their cards and if they are then it doesn’t have anything about being in a stable or whatever. There has been cheats, there are cheats and there will be cheats in the future. Just because somebody is staked doesn’t mean they are cheats. When Cos and the guys were staked by Blatchly you guys didn’t think they would cheat together right? It’s the same thing here.

Hey Pads

I have no problems with stables.

I was referring to the posts on 2+2 from BRS players saying they were berated and intimidated by Paul Jackson if they knocked each other out of tournaments and that they received messages if they were on the same table as another BRS player around the bubble.

As a complete rec player I have no issue trying to get past staked players, I do have a problem if they are intentionally working together to ensure they both ladder instead of me.

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« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2018, 05:08:14 AM »

If they made it clear up front that it was £5M guaranteed but with a zero chance of an overlay then it would be fine.

What they actually do is advertise the 'incredible value' and 'huge potential overlays' all over facebook to get people in to the tournament knowing full well that there won't be one.

All they need to do is be transparent and let people know that it's a £5M guarantee but they'll be putting their own players in on some kind of split to ensure that it actually gets the runners necessary to make the guarantee.

It's all about transparency. Let people know what they're getting in to up front and nobody can ever complain. Any kind of sneakiness in there will always upset a few folk.



Of course some overlays hit mate but many, many don’t. Online on daily basis you will find 5+ tournaments with overlay, last week in Canada I think there was 1m overlay, I would say that there has probably been 100,000% more overlays in party tournaments than any other brand, it’s not really up for debate there are many tournaments in a regular basis that have big added value from overlay. 

Sorry I was mainly referring to the specific £5M guarantee tournament and also the live tournaments I regularly see promoted on facebook which are generally the DTD ones.

I wasn't really talking about online as I don't see the info for those tournaments so don't have any knowledge of what goes on. I did read the 2p2 thread though and saw the following post which really paints a bad picture all being within 2% of the exact number of runners required to hit the guarantee:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Mystic View Post
There is definitely something odd going on with respect to field sizes.

$55 $10k - 198 runners
$109 $50k - 497 runners
$55 $25k - 494 runners
$530 $100k - 196 runners
$530 $40k - 80 runners
$109 $40k - 399 runners
$215 $100k - 494 runners

And looking at yesterday's fields it is a similar story
This is not normal at all, never used to happen. What's the deal?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This person may have been cherry picking of course but I read it as though this was the tournaments from one specific day. When I used to play on stars it was never like this, pretty much every tournament hit the guarantee but there was never a noticeable pattern of them being this close.

Anyone with a suspicious mind might well think there was a pool of players just sat there waiting with their tournament dollars to buy in at the last minute if they were needed to make up the numbers. There might even be someone instructing these players which tournaments to sign up for? The posts from ex BRS players seem to suggest that this was the case.

I'd like to take the unders on 100000% if I may please although we'll have to specify over how much time. Are we including the penny rolls and $1.10 tournaments here? I'll admit that they overlay quite frequently so would probably skew thing in your favour.




Numbers being close to guarantees are because they get pushed and pushed and pushed. The same person forgot to mention the $20k, $10k, $30knoverlays In heaps of tournaments this week. I’m sorry but it’s #fakenews Wink
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