Robbed? You tell me.....

[The Big Slick]

Now then - Now Then.

Have just returned from a tournament in Blackpool with the distinct feeling of being robbed to the point of being ready to kill anyone with 50yds of me, and also to a certain extent, cheated. Allow me to explain.

There are 27 players left in the event, with an average stack of 30,500, and I am in the big blind with 41,500. The hands are folded to the guy behind the button who flat calls for 6,000. At that point I see I am holding  . I immediately start humming to the tune of "Mack The Knife" whilst tapping the beat on the table rail, this was done to give the impression i am not interested in the hand (I had done this numerous times during the evening, and had won a good size pot earlier in the night using this tactic).

The button - who is also table chip leader - calls, as does the small blind. At the very point he says call, I stop humming and tapping and announce "Raise".
The guy behind the button says I cannot raise, as I have checked by tapping the rail. The dealer agrees and immediately turns over the flop to reveal  . The small blind raises all-in for another 9,000. At this point I see no point in carrying on complaining, and push in all my chips as I need to push the others off their hands, leaving me "heads-up with the small blind.

The guy behind the button immediately pushes his stack in for 55,000. The button then states that although he reckons he has us all beat, is folding his  because of 2 threats (me and guy behind him) to his potential call. We are "on yer backs" and I find guy behind button has  off suit, and has made the straight. The small blind has  (gutshot straight draw). Turn comes  , river  and I am out.

I feel I was robbed because if I had been allowed to raise (an obvious play so as not to let anyone catch an ace on the cheap, and go in front), the guy behind button would have folded ( ), the button ( ) would call (he feels he's in front after all, and now would have only 1 threat to his stack, namely, me), the small blind would still have called preflop for the pot odds value he was getting by having an ace in the hole, and I would have won a pot of 116,000.

The cheating element is in the guy behind button insisting I had checked, as he could under no circumstance call any raise with his hand (why was he there in the first place), and therefore gained the cheap flop under false pretences.

Its not so often I make a totally serious post on this forum, but in this case feel it neccessery, and would like to hear others thoughts, and also detail the percentages I would have had to win the hand under "normal" circumstances.

On flop of  :
Button ( ) = 9.63%
Small Blind ( ) = 26.14%
Big Blind ( ) = 61.13%

And on turn (being  ), these percentages went further in my favour as follows:
Button ( ) = 4.76%
Small Blind ( ) = 16.67%
Big Blind ( ) = 78.57%

As I write this post a mate has MSN me with the following, which he found on the net:
"Angle-Shooting" definition

Angle-Shooting - Using unfair tactics.

Usage: A poker player who uses various underhanded, unfair methods to take advantage of inexperienced opponents. The difference between an angle shooter and a cheat is only a matter of degree. What a cheat or thief does is patently against the rules; what an angle shooter does may be marginally legal, but it's neither ethical nor gentlemanly. Nor is it in the spirit of the game. Unfortunately, poker is not a gentleman's game. In addition to learning how to protect yourself against cheating players, you must learn to watch out for the angle shooters.

[AdamM]

there's no doubt at all that you've been the victim of angle shooting here. HOWEVER, you've given them too much amunition to do so. you're tapping the table / rail is the universal signal for "check" and so you've checked out of turn 50+ time while they've been acting on their hands. You've probably irritated them with you're tapping and the small blind has decided to catch you out by calling for the ruling he did. The learn here is don't do anything that can be interpreted as an action. Don't pretend to check, pretend to raise pretend to pass, tap, hum, whistle or do anything that isn't specifically related to your actual intentions.

also, don't look at your cards until the SB has acted.

unlucky though

[thetank]

 whilst tapping the beat on the table rail, this was done to give the impression i am not interested in the hand (I had done this numerous times during the evening, and had won a good size pot earlier in the night using this tactic).

There are some (not me) who would consider this angle-shooting. Why tap the table, it is associated with checking, passivity, no danger etc.


You've learned your lesson, hum and tap as much you like, just quit it a bit sooner in future so there's no grey area.
Even if the dealer disagrees next time and allows the raise, the player who objected is likely to obtain valuable information from your reaction to the objection.

[matt674]

At this point I see no point in carrying on complaining, and push in all my chips as I need to push the others off their hands, leaving me "heads-up with the small blind.

If you saw no point in complaining at the time then you cant have a case of complaining afterwards. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, if you thought what was happening was wrong you should have complained at the time. A proper ruling would have been given by the card room manager and it would have been resolved there and then.

[GlasgowBandit]

If I where the guy behind the button I would have insisted you where checking as well.  Especially if I have some chips in the pot and I want to see a cheap flop.  In a home game or amongst friends I wouldn't dream of doing it but in a competitive enviroment I reckon you have to use every possible advantage you can.

You where not cheated IMO, you gave them aenough rope and they hung you out to dry.

[Gilbern74]

And don't wave your hands in the air at an auction if you don't intend to bid.     

[AdamM]

i disagree bandit, I think what the SB did was wrong and angleshooting IS NOT ok in a competetive environment. however irritating the tapping and humming was, they all new bigslicks intention was not to check and they are basically collectively abusing the rules. A good dealer would accept the raise and tell the player not to tap on the table anymore and also to insist on verbal declarations from that player

[bolt pp]

 whilst tapping the beat on the table rail, this was done to give the impression i am not interested in the hand (I had done this numerous times during the evening, and had won a good size pot earlier in the night using this tactic).

There are some (not me) who would consider this angle-shooting. Why tap the table, it is associated with checking, passivity, no danger etc.


You've learned your lesson, hum and tap as much you like, just quit it a bit sooner in future so there's no grey area.
Even if the dealer disagrees next time and allows the raise, the player who objected is likely to obtain valuable information from your reaction to the objection.

even though i'm inclined to agree with tank i do so reluctantly as he has no hat.

i'm eager to know if you had checked frequently by tapping the table during this tourney?

[Rod Paradise]

Got pulled up (by Snoopy who was dealing I think), for this at BB2 - was tapping the table, then went raise. Was told that the tapping could have been taken as a check. Friendly tourney so I said OK then if anyone thought I'd checked then we'll count it as a check. I was lucky enough that my KK stood up.

Doubt it was angle shooting though - just me having a  .

[bundle]

Easy....................................PAY ATTENTION & SIT STILL.....

I heard of a guy telling a poker story at the table, and says "so of course i'm all in"  Well the action was on him and the dealer told him the all in had to stand. Lucky for him everyone folded.

[The Big Slick]

Now Then - Now Then.

Thank you for the replies which I have taken on board.  However, I wish to answer a question raised by one of the reply's, and clarify the situation to the others.

To bolt pp.
During the whole length of the tournament (some 6hrs) when in the big blind and not wanting to raise, i verbally announced "NO RAISE". This was no exception with the particular table I was on (with the same dealer).

To AdamM.
It was not the small blind  who complained, but the guy behind the button  .  The small blind was the short stack, and with 6,000 invested was always going to get his remaining chips in (imho) with his ace.

To Matt674.
There was no point complaining at that time as the dealer had already dealt the flop before I had chance to seek a ruling from the TD, although that 'should' have been my right (again, imho).  At that point the guy behind the button would have seen he had made a straight.

In closing, it could be said the guy behind the button intentionally limped in with the idea of raising the complaint 'if' I announced raise. But in that we will never know.  However, let me leave you with this senerio (hope thats spelt correctly).  You are in the big blind as I was.  You turn round to take a drink, and as you return to play your hand, at the moment your hand touches the table, someone says the same. Afterall, no matter how lightly you touched the table, it could be construde as a tap, could'nt it?

[bundle]

I immediately start humming to the tune of "Mack The Knife" whilst tapping the beat on the table rail, this was done to give the impression i am not interested in the hand (I had done this numerous times during the evening, and had won a good size pot earlier in the night using this tactic).

I think you are just splitting hairs now.

at the moment your hand touches the table, someone says the same. Afterall, no matter how lightly you touched the table, it could be construde as a tap, could'nt it?

PS. I have never heard anyone announce NO RAISE.

 WHY MAKE THINGS SO HARD ON YOURSELF ? If i didnt pick up on the NO....... i would say you had raised..Why use the word Raise at all, when you have no intention of going there.

You must have been getting on their tits big time LMAO........ Tapping singing and saying NO RAISE...

[thetank]

You are in the big blind as I was.  You turn round to take a drink, and as you return to play your hand, at the moment your hand touches the table, someone says the same. Afterall, no matter how lightly you touched the table, it could be construde as a tap, could'nt it?

Yes, so don't. 

[thetank]

PS. I have never heard anyone announce NO RAISE.

It's common in the UK bundle.

[bundle]

It's common in the UK bundle.

  Really ? That seems so strange....