Structures at the Vic

[TightEnd]

thought you might have done 

[Royal Flush]

I like the structure if thats what players were told at the start!

For a while i have said 1hr long structures are pointless when the blinds go up so slow early on, i would rather have the poker at the buissness end.

So if they had said right at the start "45mins for first 2 levels, we miss the 75-150 and 150-300 levels and then on day 2 we start on 500-1000 with 90 minute clock" i would have been happy (maybe need that 150-300 level back, would rather lose 25-50 than 150-300)

However my understanding is that it was not the case and things have been changing mid comp, which is NO GOOD! As Red says, it changed the way he played.

[tikay]

The advertised structure gave the blind levels, but NOT the clock. One can only assume this was intentional, to give themselves "elbow room" to adjust if they saw fit. From personal experience, I know this "room to maneouvre" is no bad thing. If it's possible to slow a clock, then that's good, but in an ideal world, yes, the advertised structure should be adhered to. If only we lived in an ideal world! We changed things "on the hoof" at bB2 & got it in the neck!

Tom, by "balanced" I mean this. The debate is subjective - there is no right or wrong, it's all opinions. Nobody can say either side is 100% right or wrong, fact. So with so much of the argument being Anti Vic, I simply felt it necesary to redress the balance a little. Beating the shite out of The Vic won't help the cause! We even had a Member who named himself "IHATETHEVIC"....

Then Camel Posted, & I must say, that made me think again - the man knows his stuff, though thats not to say he is always right, but he reminded us about the 500-1,000 Level, which no other Poster had noticed, or mentioned. "Balance" again.

Finally, we have a responsibility to our Members, & to Rank, who facilitate our Updates, to try & ensure debates are "balanced", & when it's a subjective matter, as this is, both sides get a fair hearing. Doubtless we shall air this on next week's 425 at length - I do hope some of you e-mail the studio to help the debate along, & I'll raise the matter on my Poker Night Live Phone-in n Wednesday, again, please send your views to the show to oil the wheels of the debate.

Finally, I heard one guy complain about the structure before it started, & he got short shrift - "if you don't like it, you can withdraw" - which was hardly helpful, to be fair.

I guess my prob (or one of them) is that I tend to side with the underdog, especially if everyone is piling in, & I acknowledge that failing..

[Royal Flush]

Structures should NEVER change mid comp. The vic has enough experience running comps that i don't think they need elbow room when it comes to running a comp.

They are supposed to be the flagship, yet Luton to almost evreyone is the far superior place when it comes to cardroom management from the players point of view.

[doubleup]

The advertised structure gave the blind levels, but NOT the clock. One can only assume this was intentional, to give themselves "elbow room" to adjust if they saw fit. From personal experience, I know this "room to maneouvre" is no bad thing. If it's possible to slow a clock, then that's good, but in an ideal world, yes, the advertised structure should be adhered to. If only we lived in an ideal world! We changed things "on the hoof" at bB2 & got it in the neck!

Tom, by "balanced" I mean this. The debate is subjective - there is no right or wrong, it's all opinions. Nobody can say either side is 100% right or wrong, fact. So with so much of the argument being Anti Vic, I simply felt it necesary to redress the balance a little. Beating the shite out of The Vic won't help the cause! We even had a Member who named himself "IHATETHEVIC"....

Then Camel Posted, & I must say, that made me think again - the man knows his stuff, though thats not to say he is always right, but he reminded us about the 500-1,000 Level, which no other Poster had noticed, or mentioned. "Balance" again.

Finally, we have a responsibility to our Members, & to Rank, who facilitate our Updates, to try & ensure debates are "balanced", & when it's a subjective matter, as this is, both sides get a fair hearing. Doubtless we shall air this on next week's 425 at length - I do hope some of you e-mail the studio to help the debate along, & I'll raise the matter on my Poker Night Live Phone-in n Wednesday, again, please send your views to the show to oil the wheels of the debate.

Finally, I heard one guy complain about the structure before it started, & he got short shrift - "if you don't like it, you can withdraw" - which was hardly helpful, to be fair.

I guess my prob (or one of them) is that I tend to side with the underdog, especially if everyone is piling in, & I acknowledge that failing..

Tikay you can side with the underdog if you want, but you have to understand that there is more than enough information about structures available to cardroom managers, if they can be bothered to investigate.

A good structure should allow an average stack to call a raise from another average stack without feeling pot committed until at least near the bubble - average should be at least 20BBs, preferably more than this.

A lot of the problems I feel are caused by starting tournaments late.  Amsterdam manages to provide tournaments that go from 200+ players down to a final in one day by starting at 2pm, but if you have an average stack you can happily call a raise and see a flop well into the tounaments.  South England based players who work can surely take a half day - the rest of field are pros and people travelling from further afield who will be unaffected by an earlier start.

[tikay]

Nice stuff Doubleup, bt I do seem to be the only one trying to see BOTH sides of this debate.

For example, you say a good structure should have "at least 20 BB's" (though you don't say at what stage). What is the current average chips & how many BB's is that as at start of play on Sunday (Day 3)?

But then again......

I don't think I've ever seen a tourney which began at 45 minute levels, increased to 1 hour, then increased again to 90 minutes....! Mind you, there would be riots if it started at 90 minutes, then went to 60, then 45!

[thediceman]

I think one positive action from the Vic management team is that they have had the bottle to slow the blinds and allow poker to be played rather than the usual crapshoot scenio you get in most later parts of a tournments. Far to frequently we see players work hard getting into a final only to see that they have little or no room to play due to the level of blinds. Why is it that in the most interesting part of the competition, the final, when your playing for big money most players find that they only moves are to fold, flat call or go allin.

And yes, I do acknowledge the fact that the Vic have got themselves into the position of having to amend the structure mid tournament which is not desirable. They got the intail structure wrong as it was far to fast.

A sensible starting structure with the option to slow it down mid to late tournament to maintain a playable game is what I hope for. The question is would tournament directors slow a game down to allow greater play for the players as they don't get any more money for working longer.