AA, terrible flop

[totalise]

5/10 NL, 4 handed

First hand just for info... 5/7c in BB, button raises to 30, I r/r to 90, he calls. flop nice, 6/8/K 2 clubs (K and 8 were clubs).  Lead weak for 40, he raise to 200 straight, I push he calls with K10 (eh?) turn makes me and he cries/reloads

Second hand (2k stack), red AA in SB.. UTG (has me covered) makes it 40 to go, button calls, I r/r to 123 (maybe should have raised more, but I wanted to give off the impression i was joking around/taking the pish)..bb folds, call call from the other 2

flop JQK spades.

First to act, What line do you take here? No reads, apart from their implied read on me based on first hand

[TightEnd]

out of position, I think you have to take at least one stab at it with a pot sized bet

In all likelihood this won't get rid of both of them

await the turn, hopefully heads up...I would be prepared to go into check fold mode on a danger card ( spade, picture )but have another stab on a blank.

If I am raised on the flop however I begin cursing pricing them all in with a lily livered reraise pre flop! 

[moritzey]

push and pray for AK and AQ? I'm not sure, I'd probably put in a decent sized bet, forcing the others to commit a good bit of their stack to bluff or push me off the hand. Then see what happens. If they fold, nice. If someone pushes, fold.

I suppose a good thing about your tiny raise preflop is that you might well be ahead with your hand now. The flop clearly is the point where you want to find out exactly how good their hands are..

[ACE2M]

I check raise here and find out exactly where i am.

[Nem]

What are the exact chip stacks?

[TightEnd]

I check raise here and find out exactly where i am.

not necessarily gonna happen though.....so many draws can call your check raise and you can shut down if well ahead...

[totalise]

push and pray for AK and AQ? I'm not sure, I'd probably put in a decent sized bet, forcing the others to commit a good bit of their stack to bluff or push me off the hand. Then see what happens. If they fold, nice. If someone pushes, fold.

I suppose a good thing about your tiny raise preflop is that you might well be ahead with your hand now. The flop clearly is the point where you want to find out exactly how good their hands are..

Hi Moritzey

the problem with pushing on flops like this, is that its really hard for me to get called by worse hands, and its even harder to get better hands to fold. I guess I might get a call from AK with the , but sets/2pair/flush/straights are most likely looking me up if I jam.. so pushing is pretty much a bet that can only cost me money. IT does protect me from getting a call from a naked spade (which I would want a call from anyways), but when risk is substantially greater then reward, it usually becomes too expensive. A gross overbet push is too suspicious

As for finding out now, I'd much rather engineer the betting so that I would still be in the pot on the turn, but alas, that doesn't happen too often in situations like this

[totalise]

What are the exact chip stacks?

me 2k.. utg covers (he had something like 3k) button reloaded full to 1k

[totalise]

I check raise here and find out exactly where i am.

not necessarily gonna happen though.....so many draws can call your check raise and you can shut down if well ahead...

I didn't really consider a c/r here, because the UTG who has me coverd can 3-bet a wide range of hands on both a bluff and with draws/made hands, and I cant call against any of them, so I'm just putting a huge amount of money in with a slim chance of seeing a showdown

I hate c/raises tho, my personal belief is that you should really limit check raises to situations where you are confident of where you stand..  (as in, a total bluff, or miles ahead/behind). What it does is gives my opponent quite a lot of info about my hand, whilst gathering zero info from his hand, and that information exchange is something that gives me negative vibes.

[ACE2M]

I love the check raise here followed by another bullet on the turn if flat called.

He will have to be suspicious of your check anyway and then throuroughly disconcerted by a check raise unless he has the goods.

I also like the check as if it goes raise raise you can abandon ship without further damage. I would raise you almost regardless of your my holding here if you fired a bet out as i am suspicious of you and i know that the flop will have scared you if you haven't got any of it.

[Nem]

out of position, I think you have to take at least one stab at it with a pot sized bet

In all likelihood this won't get rid of both of them

await the turn, hopefully heads up...I would be prepared to go into check fold mode on a danger card ( spade, picture )but have another stab on a blank.

If I am raised on the flop however I begin cursing pricing them all in with a lily livered reraise pre flop! 

I agree

[ACE2M]

I am a nl cash fish by the way which is why i win big or lose the lot.

i am sure sir tights ideas are for more profitable in the grand scheme of things.

[totalise]

I love the check raise here followed by another bullet on the turn if flat called.

He will have to be suspicious of your check anyway and then throuroughly disconcerted by a check raise unless he has the goods.

I also like the check as if it goes raise raise you can abandon ship without further damage. I would raise you almost regardless of your my holding here if you fired a bet out as i am suspicious of you and i know that the flop will have scared you if you haven't got any of it.

after c/raising the flop (and getting called), the pots going to have grown so big, I'll almost have to go a/i on the turn, which is certainly something I want to avoid (i think)

You hit the nail on the head where you say "id raise you regardless of my holding here", thats why I wasn't a fan of leading out for a big bet.. lets me get outplayed too easily... and I'm no fan of that

[TightEnd]

so you are leading out for 3/4 the pot or less?

you don't like the check raise, I don't either


check calling tells you nothing but at least gets you to see a cheapish turn, is that what you are advocating?

[ACE2M]

so you are leading out for 3/4 the pot or less?

you don't like the check raise, I don't either


check calling tells you nothing but at least gets you to see a cheapish turn, is that what you are advocating?

It's a horrid situation and i think this is where it is leading