"Honesty doesn't pay in poker"

[Pokerron]

If I get disconnected when playing online I expect players to notice and to take advantage of the situation and would not see them as cheating me out of my money.  Likewise if i am heads up and my opponent loses his connection I would not wait the full 15 seconds every hand before raising and do not consider that cheating, nor do I feel angry when it is done to me.   If I did I'd make sure I had suitable backup connections, ISDN or modem.

In live games I would tell people if I had seen an exposed card, never crossed my mind not to.

[londonpokergirl]

I always wait if there is a disconnection online. Doesn't everyone, seriously?

nope , unless i knew the person then i would wait

internet is a different kettle of fish and disconnections happen all the time

[thetank]

I'm taking a break in my morning sit n go session to contribute to this debate. A session in which a player disconnected heads up, and I stole every single one of his blinds, without hesitation, to cake 1st place.

I believe it's important to draw a distinction between cheating and acting honourably.
Cheating is defined by the rules, in online poker these rules are clearly laid out. In live poker, less so, but positive moves are currently being made to rectify this.

Taking a course of action that is in the spirit of a fair game (but would not necessary be against the rules of said game to refrain from doing so) is a great thing and good for poker. Those who conduct themselves with this kind of honour are to be commended and I hold them in high esteem.

However, when they expect this behaviour from everybody, and condemn or look down upon players who fail to act as they would, that's when they fall out of favour with me.

You are within your rights to expect everybody to abide by the rules of the game. You can't expect them to uphold a moral code that you yourself have invented.

This is a really interesting thread, looking at the reasons for why people do things honestly.
It was mentioned that people want to win fairly, or not at all. I understand and respect this. Indeed when I'm playing live, that's the code I follow too.

The way I see it, there are two main reasons why I play poker. A desire to compete, and to make money.

Online I play 20% to compete and 80% to make money. It is, after all, how I earn my bread.

Live, it's the opposite. 80% is to compete and the desire to win, while just 20% of my motivation is to make a profit.

This is why in live poker, I'll announce when I've seen a card I shouldn't, return extra chips I'm not entitled to from a side pot if the main pot I've just won has been calculated incorrectly, and correct the staffs errors if they've given me too many cash chips than what I've paid for etc... I'm with all y'all on that.
It's mostly because, like other posters, I want to win fair and square, or not at all. Perhaps a little for indulgent reasons too, I want the respect of my peers. If, at the end of a tournament, my heads up opponent is feeling unwell, I'll be more than happy to voluntarily pause the game while they go outside to get some air and compose themselves. If this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, brucey bonus.

My prime motivation for participating in an online poker contest is neither the joy of competing, or to earn the respect of my fellow competitiors, it is purely financial. I'll abide by the rules set out to the letter. Never will I knowingly make use of a program or service banned by the online site I'm playing on. Never will I actively collude with other players to take advantage of a disconnect. However, I'll not give a second thought to honour or any percieved sense of fairness if it's not covered by the rules. I'll do everything I can, within the law, to win the chips.

A few years ago, when my financial situation was somewhat precarious, my girlfriend at the time lost her job in a restraunt. It was because she'd accidentally undercharged customers in their bill. At the time, the loss of the job made things that little bit harder for us.
Today, if I'm in a restraunt and they've missed the drinks on the bill, I'll make sure the error is rectified. The restraunt prices may be extortionate, but I know that when I sit down, they are all clearly listed on the menu.
I'll never look down on anybody who chooses not to do this. It is, after all, a personal desicion for me why I take that particular course of action.

While I have barrel loads of respect for those who opt to wait for a heads up opponent to sort out their connection. I'd ask them to respect and understand that I have reasons for not doing so. To neither look down on me, or brand me a cheat.

Now I've finished writing this, I'll go back to playing sit n gos. If another opponent disconnects on my ass heads up, I'll raise their blinds even faster than before.

[Dingdell]

 

[thetank]

This reminds me of playing a live game in Manchester last year. One bloke at the opposite end of the table to me held his cards in his hand at all times, and checked by lifting this hand up and down (he'd probably seen Bad Girl Pham holding her cards like this on TV). However, he hadn't mastered this technique,  each time he checked he clearly exposed his bottom hole card to all at my end of the table. After he had done this twice I politely pointed out to him what he was doing, and I was then berated by the players on either side of me who said I should have let him carry on doing this. I disagree completely but I guess this is the attitude you'd expect in Manchester!!

Purely in the interest of debate this. Personally I have no clear views on who is in the right or wrong here.

Let's imagine Bad Boy Pham had a particulary obvious tell that the whole table picked up on. Say he nodded his head every time he hit a flop, and shaked his head every time he missed it. He'd get pushed off most flops and doesn't win any extra on his good hands.

If you were to point this out to him whilst the game was in progress, would the other players have a right to be upset?
It's his responsibility to protect his hand as it is his responsibility not to nod his head up and down evey time he hits top pair or a set.

[matt674]

Purely in the interest of debate this. Personally I have no clear views on who is in the right or wrong here.

Let's imagine Bad Boy Pham had a particulary obvious tell that the whole table picked up on. Say he nodded his head every time he hit a flop, and shaked his head every time he missed it. He'd get pushed off most flops and doesn't win any extra on his good hands.

If you were to point this out to him whilst the game was in progress, would the other players have a right to be upset?
It's his responsibility to protect his hand as it is his responsibility not to nod his head up and down evey time he hits top pair or a set.

If i was sat next to someone who was revealing their cards when they were looking at them then i probably wouldnt say anything at the table - if that person cant keep their hole cards out of the view of the general public then that isnt my problem. 

[RED-DOG]

Great post Tank

One comment though, You can't expect the person who didn't pay for the drinks to know your girlfriend would get the sack

Just as you could never know that losing one more game of poker could cause your opponent to commit suicide, or beat his wife up

Both unlikely outcomes don't you agree?

I am in no way defending myself here, or accusing others. If I get disconnected I EXPECT my blinds to be stolen

The main difference between our points of view seems to be that I tend to do what I think is right, while you tend to do what the law allows

When people air their differences on here, some people think it's an argument, but knowing you as I do, I'm comfortable that you will accept my comments as they are intended, in the spirit of the debate

[thetank]

It's not the fault of the customer, or the restraunt (although they were maybe a bit harsh) rather it's the dozy bint who didn't total up the bill properly. 

There's probably indulgent reasons why I do it too. I want to appear a flash git and impress the knickers off my dining companion most likely.

I would just like to point oot.....

The main difference between our points of view seems to be that I tend to do what I think is right, while you tend to do what the law allows

...I think that's only true for me in the context of online poker. Makes me sound a bit bad otherwise 

[Sheriff Fatman]

Good post Tank.

I must admit, I do have differences in what I view acceptable in a live game compared to online.  The two variants have differences and, in some cases, you can't simply expect a 'rule' from one to easily transfer to the other.  For example, in a live game the 'one player to a hand' rule is paramount but its impossible to enforce online and it seems perfectly acceptable for someone to sit behind you while you are playing (look at the Poker Godfather programme that was on the Poker Channel - imagine someone doing the same in a live environment!)

Taking advantage of an opponent disconnecting is another example.  Regardless of the reasons for them, they occur all too frequently for it to be worthwhile taking the 'honourable' route and waiting.  Does anyone here sit and wait for someone to reconnect in a full ring game?  I doubt it.  In that case, why would we treat a heads up situation any differently?  The difference I see here is that people sit down at an online table/tournament and are aware at the time of how the software will treat a disconnect.  Some tables have protection, some don't (most sites have removed it from tournaments due to the widespread abuse that used to take place).  The key thing is its known up front and is a 'risk' you take when you sit down, the same as the risk of some idiot taking all your money with 74o!  

Personally I find the opposite problem to be the one which is morally unacceptable.  Deliberately disconnecting to get a free showdown without putting more money in the pot is the lowest level to which an online player can sink.  If I see this anywhere I report it every time without fail (and I hope that others do).

Personally, if I get disconnected in a tournament I'd expect that my opponent(s) would be taking advantage of it until I can get back online.  I wouldn't expect them to do otherwise and, in the same situation I'd most likely do the same.  I don't see this as 'crossing the line'.  Taking advantage of a feature designed to protect players in order to 'bend the normal rules of poker' is an entirely different matter.

Sheriff

[RED-DOG]

I would just like to point oot.....

The main difference between our points of view seems to be that I tend to do what I think is right, while you tend to do what the law allows

...I think that's only true for me in the context of online poker. Makes me sound a bit bad otherwise 

Lol, If you read it another way, it makes me sound worse!

Who's to say that what I think is right, is right?

[RED-DOG]

So many good, well resasoned arguments for stealing the blinds of the disconnected........

Arggghhhh!!!!

[Sheriff Fatman]

Looking back at my last post its suddenly occurred to me how I balance most of these decisions in my mind - would I like it if the situations were reversed and I was the 'victim'?  If the answer is no, then I don't do it.  If I'm indifferent then I'll go ahead.

I would guess that we make many of our moral judgements in this context, not just at the poker table?

Sheriff

[thetank]

Okay, here's some advice for those that have been disconnected. (Coz I'm all heart on this issue  )

There is a diffence between "sitting out" and being "disconnected" as far as the sites software is concerned.

If for some reason you can't click on your screen, say your monitor has exploded or the dog has run away with your mouse, your computer is still connected to the internet. The website will treat you as "sitting out" rather than disconnected. When sitting out, your hands are folded immediately and you'll likely have been practically eliminated from the tournament upon your return.

If, however, the internet connection is severed, the website will give you more time to sort yourself out. If you're on the bubble or beyond, it can give you 120 seconds for the first hand before it folds and 60 seconds for the 2nd one. This should give you plenty time to wrestle the mouse back off the dog (or un-explode your monitor) without harming your stack too badly. It's for this reason that you should consider a contingency plan if you somehow can't click on the betting action buttons. It may be an idea to deliberately sever your connection (by janking out the modem wire thingy at the back) so the site treats you as having disconnected, rather than just sitting out.

I'm speaking in the context of Pokerstars and their software, but similar things are true of other sites.



Post Script - Don't play on Crypto 

[Dingdell]

Okay, here's some advice for those that have been disconnected. (Coz I'm all heart on this issue  )

There is a diffence between "sitting out" and being "disconnected" as far as the sites software is concerned.

If for some reason you can't click on your screen, say your monitor has exploded or the dog has run away with your mouse, your computer is still connected to the internet. The website will treat you as "sitting out" rather than disconnected. When sitting out, your hands are folded immediately and you'll likely have been practically eliminated from the tournament upon your return.

If, however, the internet connection is severed, the website will give you more time to sort yourself out. If you're on the bubble or beyond, it can give you 120 seconds for the first hand before it folds and 60 seconds for the 2nd one. This should give you plenty time to wrestle the mouse back off the dog (or un-explode your monitor) without harming your stack too badly. It's for this reason that you should consider a contingency plan if you somehow can't click on the betting action buttons. It may be an idea to deliberately sever your connection (by janking out the modem wire thingy at the back) so the site treats you as having disconnected, rather than just sitting out.

I'm speaking in the context of Pokerstars and their software, but similar things are true of other sites.

What contingency plans do you have - phoning a friend to play the game is obviously not one of them?

[thetank]

would I like it if the situations were reversed

I would guess that we make many of our moral judgements in this context, not just at the poker table?

With the possible exception of fellatio.