The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[RickBFA]

The fuck up isn't leaving the EU in itself - its the screwed up negotiations and internal arguments in the Tory party alongside no majority in Parliament to force a position through which is a large part of the problem we face.

Add in the EU's "style" of negotiations and you get to where we are now.

If there was any common sense applied then we would have been a lot more advanced but then this is politics, power and too many dickhead politicians with large ego's.



 

[MANTIS01]

Yes pretty sure nobody who voted Leave and thus EU reform ( a point we all agree was necessary) voted for No Deal. Thought we had the potential to phrase the referendum question in a slicker way, getting support for it & allowing us great leaverage to achieve that objective we all agreed was necessary.

[Pokerpops]

You say nationalistic illusion  of self determination, I say actual democratic independence. Tomato, tomato.

The latter is worth the  short term inconvenience and pain.

And for people who voted for control of borders and a reduction of immigration, leaving  will likely bring about the change they voted for. Again the pain will be worth it.

The scare mongering and accusations of nationalism - near always used in the perjorative voice - didn't win the argument before the vote, and they are unlikely to affect change in  hearts and minds now

I think there's some cognitive dissonance going on here (if not on your part than at least on some people who are stating this viewpoint). I really don't think that most people who voted leave thought they were signing up for years of misery to make the great leap to democratic freedom.  Now the reality of a no deal Brexit is becoming clear to some people, they are telling themselves and others that they were actually self sacrificing freedom fighters, because to admit otherwise would be to admit they were daft enough to be duped in the first place, and their self esteem won't allow them to do that.

I don't feel self sacrificing, i dont feel like a freedom fighter, i dont feel like i was making a great leap to democratic freedom and I don't feel duped and I don't tell people I am any of these things. One area that has come as a surprise and it really shouldn't have is the abysmal level.of leadership and government  competence throughout

Just mocking people really isn't ever going to enlighten is it

The abysmal leadership began when Cameron decided that a referendum was a good idea and that asking a simple binary question was the way to go. Then he left himself with no other option than to accept the result in the belief that it would be to remain.
His cowardice post-referendum, plus Gove’s chicanery in the leadership contest left us with TMay and that leads us to where we now are.

I wanted out of the EU. It is failing, chaotic at best - corrupt at worst. But I wanted our political leaders to step up and deal with the process of an orderly exit. What we are getting is not leadership. What we are getting is what Lord Owen describes in the linked article below.
“Parliamentarians who believe that they are entitled in a strange way to thwart Brexit”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/30/lord-owen-parliament-has-let-country-theresas-mays-bespoke-brexit/

[nirvana]

You say nationalistic illusion  of self determination, I say actual democratic independence. Tomato, tomato.

The latter is worth the  short term inconvenience and pain.

And for people who voted for control of borders and a reduction of immigration, leaving  will likely bring about the change they voted for. Again the pain will be worth it.

The scare mongering and accusations of nationalism - near always used in the perjorative voice - didn't win the argument before the vote, and they are unlikely to affect change in  hearts and minds now

I think there's some cognitive dissonance going on here (if not on your part than at least on some people who are stating this viewpoint). I really don't think that most people who voted leave thought they were signing up for years of misery to make the great leap to democratic freedom.  Now the reality of a no deal Brexit is becoming clear to some people, they are telling themselves and others that they were actually self sacrificing freedom fighters, because to admit otherwise would be to admit they were daft enough to be duped in the first place, and their self esteem won't allow them to do that.

I don't feel self sacrificing, i dont feel like a freedom fighter, i dont feel like i was making a great leap to democratic freedom and I don't feel duped and I don't tell people I am any of these things. One area that has come as a surprise and it really shouldn't have is the abysmal level.of leadership and government  competence throughout

Just mocking people really isn't ever going to enlighten is it

The abysmal leadership began when Cameron decided that a referendum was a good idea and that asking a simple binary question was the way to go. Then he left himself with no other option than to accept the result in the belief that it would be to remain.
His cowardice post-referendum, plus Gove’s chicanery in the leadership contest left us with TMay and that leads us to where we now are.

I wanted out of the EU. It is failing, chaotic at best - corrupt at worst. But I wanted our political leaders to step up and deal with the process of an orderly exit. What we are getting is not leadership. What we are getting is what Lord Owen describes in the linked article below.
“Parliamentarians who believe that they are entitled in a strange way to thwart Brexit”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/30/lord-owen-parliament-has-let-country-theresas-mays-bespoke-brexit/

Pushing on an open door here..my first thought when the result came in was 'ask a silly question...'

[MANTIS01]

I heard through a reliable source that Cameron is now in Nice, with his trotters up.

[Marky147]

I heard through a reliable source that Cameron is now in Nice, with his trotters up.

The twat!

[doubleup]

Did any of you brexitters read Tighty's quoted article at 12.41?

Even if you gobble out "project fear, project fear", you must admit there is a non zero probability of food shortages.  How many sklansky people are you happy to suffer illness, possibly death from a food crises.  Any sklansky relatives up for theoretical death?

[Woodsey]

Did any of you brexitters read Tighty's quoted article at 12.41?

Even if you gobble out "project fear, project fear", you must admit there is a non zero probability of food shortages.  How many sklansky people are you happy to suffer illness, possibly death from a food crises.  Any sklansky relatives up for theoretical death?

Yes I did.

“If this does go wrong, we would see a very speedy erosion of choice.”

I can deal with a lack of choice no problem. There is no suggestion we are going to starve or anything so yes more project fear....

[nirvana]

Did any of you brexitters read Tighty's quoted article at 12.41?

Even if you gobble out "project fear, project fear", you must admit there is a non zero probability of food shortages.  How many sklansky people are you happy to suffer illness, possibly death from a food crises.  Any sklansky relatives up for theoretical death?

Yes I did.

“If this does go wrong, we would see a very speedy erosion of choice.”

I can deal with a lack of choice no problem. There is no suggestion we are going to starve or anything so yes more project fear....

I deliberately go to shops with less choice already. Woodsey in sensible non troll post shocker

[TightEnd]

"We face the biggest peacetime decision in a generation – the public must have the final say on Brexit"

by a popular author

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-peter-mandelson-final-say-second-referendum-peoples-vote-a8469351.html

[StuartHopkin]

"We face the biggest peacetime decision in a generation – the public must have the final say on Brexit"

by a popular author

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-peter-mandelson-final-say-second-referendum-peoples-vote-a8469351.html

Cant deal with this....

Its obviously not that bigger decision or issue....

OR THEY WOULDN'T HAVE GONE ON THERE JOLLIES!

 

[teddybloat]

Did any of you brexitters read Tighty's quoted article at 12.41?

Even if you gobble out "project fear, project fear", you must admit there is a non zero probability of food shortages.  How many sklansky people are you happy to suffer illness, possibly death from a food crises.  Any sklansky relatives up for theoretical death?

Yes I did.

“If this does go wrong, we would see a very speedy erosion of choice.”

I can deal with a lack of choice no problem. There is no suggestion we are going to starve or anything so yes more project fear....

" He points to the recent acute shortage of CO2, a by-product of the fertiliser business. It led to supply problems with everything from beer to crumpets"

ah the great beer and crumpet shortage of 2018

i'm sure we'll cope with such a crisis, even if it is many magnitudes worse. such as affecting crepes.

[MANTIS01]

Think people need to start taking this more seriously. If the full range of products aren't available at all times it will place great strain on the NHS. Folk in Surrey may start having palpitations if Waitrose runs dry of foie gras or peppermint tea. I personally know people in Birmingham who have been known to get very anxious when the local petrol station sells out of Peperami. Our social infrastructure is already under resourced so if we do see unwitting shoppers collapsing aghast in the Italian section because garlic bread is on the wane all of us who voted Leave will have it on our conscience. It's just like a Stephen king horror story. 

[neeko]

.

[Pokerpops]

Did any of you brexitters read Tighty's quoted article at 12.41?

Even if you gobble out "project fear, project fear", you must admit there is a non zero probability of food shortages.  How many sklansky people are you happy to suffer illness, possibly death from a food crises.  Any sklansky relatives up for theoretical death?

Did you read it to the end?

A no-deal Brexit would make that one episode look like child’s play. “It would be disruption on a pretty epic scale, at least for a number of weeks,”

Our currently abundant food supply may well be downgraded to merely “adequate”. It is a dereliction of duty and an abnegation of the basic responsibilities of good government, on a truly staggering scale. Those involved should hang their heads in shame.

So maybe, if we end up with a no-deal Brexit, we might see disruption for some weeks and we might have to cope with adequate food supplies. Maybe that will help with the national obesity problem.