just need opinions

[LeKnave]

I'm afraid James is wrong about this. I think it's something born out of the internet game. How someone reacts to a bet both physically and strategically gives you information, information that you wouldn't have if you didn't bet. But don't take my word for it cos Kin asked yoyo in the well if he bet for info and he said "i guess all bets are information, so yeah". End of really. I understand the concept but it has just melted into don't bet for info.

raising/betting with the intention of folding is so easy to exploit by any1 half decent.

[bolt pp]

Flushy nicks his strategies off of fat Yanks!!! 

[noble1]

LeKnave  - raising/betting with the intention of folding is so easy to exploit by any1 half decent.

yes it is easy to exploit if i did it a lot and played oop all the time   but i was hoping for feedback on the actual situation that happened..thx for insight though ..

[MANTIS01]

I'm afraid James is wrong about this. I think it's something born out of the internet game. How someone reacts to a bet both physically and strategically gives you information, information that you wouldn't have if you didn't bet. But don't take my word for it cos Kin asked yoyo in the well if he bet for info and he said "i guess all bets are information, so yeah". End of really. I understand the concept but it has just melted into don't bet for info.

raising/betting with the intention of folding is so easy to exploit by any1 half decent.

If you were betting with the intention of folding you wouldn't be betting for info, info to help you decide how to play the hand. Cos you would have already decided how your gonna play it, you're gonna fold, and that decision was based on NO information. Namely, I am weak so will bet out to prove that to myself. People who say they bet to find out where they stand are not betting for info. They are jut betting cos they are weak. So in the same way you could bet air here with the intention of folding...and you still wouldn't be betting for info.

[kinboshi]

This thread is gonna get good.

[byronkincaid]

I'm afraid James is wrong about this. I think it's something born out of the internet game. How someone reacts to a bet both physically and strategically gives you information, information that you wouldn't have if you didn't bet. But don't take my word for it cos Kin asked yoyo in the well if he bet for info and he said "i guess all bets are information, so yeah". End of really. I understand the concept but it has just melted into don't bet for info.

raising/betting with the intention of folding is so easy to exploit by any1 half decent.

If you were betting with the intention of folding you wouldn't be betting for info, info to help you decide how to play the hand. Cos you would have already decided how your gonna play it, you're gonna fold, and that decision was based on NO information. Namely, I am weak so will bet out to prove that to myself. People who say they bet to find out where they stand are not betting for info. They are jut betting cos they are weak. So in the same way you could bet air here with the intention of folding...and you still wouldn't be betting for info.

hey mantis, I think your posts have improved tremendously since you first started posting but this is bad imo. it's fine to raise air cos you is bluffing. it's fine to raise your strong hands cos you is betting for value and happy to get all in. The middling inbetween hands by definition have showdown value. The money you burn raise/folding you could spend calling a couple of streets and maybe catch him bluffing or value betting a worse hand. Obv you can also fold if new info makes you think he has a better hand.

now this does mean that we have polarised our raising range here between nuts and bluffs and hopefully someone else (flushy maybe?) can tell us about balancing our range to be more unreadable here.

[AlexMartin]

i honestly struggled with the betting for information concept for about two years. Probably only beginning of last year did i realise the futility. Bet for value or as a bluff and AS A SECONDARY BENEFIT to gain information about your opponents range.

 Betting to find out where you are etcetc is ridiculously exploitable, an example of why it is terrible is when players donk bet 1010 into the preflop raiser on a single overcard board (normally A/K) "to see if he has it", if this is you go spend a hundred hours on 2+2 to see how bad that is. 

tip.
If you dont understand this, try and bet for thinner and thinner value and you will understand why you are very often levelling yourself and playing bad poker if you "bet for information".

[Longy]

Please don't 'raise for info' EVER!!!

Please don't raise with top 2 on such a draw heavy board to then fold to a re-raise!

For those of us that don't understand that, (many in number), can you explain it, please, using little words?

In know it's a mantra of yours, adopted by the Upstarts generally now, (and may well be right) but I'm quite keen to hear the rationale.

TIA.

Geez talk about stirring up a wasps nest, when we all getting along so well.

I refer the honourable gentlemen to the threads of Mantis vs Dempsey/Lloyd (2007), we did it to death then and the mods had a nightmare cleaning up the fallout.

[kinboshi]

Please don't 'raise for info' EVER!!!

Please don't raise with top 2 on such a draw heavy board to then fold to a re-raise!

For those of us that don't understand that, (many in number), can you explain it, please, using little words?

In know it's a mantra of yours, adopted by the Upstarts generally now, (and may well be right) but I'm quite keen to hear the rationale.

TIA.

Geez talk about stirring up a wasps nest, when we all getting along so well.

I refer the honourable gentlemen to the threads of Mantis vs Dempsey/Lloyd (2007), we did it to death then and the mods had a nightmare cleaning up the fallout.

We haven't had a good debate on this for a while though.  Mods at the ready...

[TightEnd]

I need this like a hole in the head.

Happy New Year.

[bolt pp]

you've built it up too much now!!

(probs a good way of defusing situations in the future)

[noble1]

A brief ish re-cap

it has gone off track a bit this thread..ok, up to now some disagree with me check raising the flop and not calling the re-raise i received back as they insist it is most likely that villain has a draw , top pair? or an over pair...not many considered that i may be up against a set. [some did but considered it unlikely]

it has been said that because i folded that players could use this to exploit me in future hands, ok to assume that i guess but remember no one at the table saw what i folded anyway..so what can they exploit? if they assume they can adjust there game and re-raise me on the flop a lot etc etc ,do they honestly think i wont adjust back? most thinking players would you know !!

I posted this hand because i wanted to see different opinions on playing 2 pair oop to a pre-flop raiser on a draw type flop but no one really opened up about how they would approach this hand. [well a few all ins ] all i wanted to know was how they/you would play each street as the cards/betting developed. [and the reason for doing that/your way]
When i make a bet i do like to have a plan/idea of what i will do on future streets according to my opponents actions/my reads on him if any/and his possible hand range..

The thread got into the whole betting for info thing and my opinion on that is betting pre and post flop are part of a story and as the story develops on different streets we use the betting and all the other factors like reads and opponent style of play to piece everything together and figure out if we are winning or behind or if an audacious bluff will work etc etc.
Now in my post with 2 pair,i figured that i was behind as the story developed so i folded but what would of happened if i had lead out in the 1st place,could i of got away from 2 pair if i chose this line of play,would i have to check the turn if another club came? do i lead out the turn and fold if re-raised there? which story line is the best? why is poker so dam situational if it wasn't we could just have std lines of play for whatever strength hand we had based on our position and would not have to think at all

now i have got that off my chest i'd like to say a quick thank you for the replies and to wish you a happy new year,may the drink be plentiful

regards
noble

[pokerfan]

stf up we are 9 tabling (max my monitor slight overlap) and dont have time to run the maths we just shove and call it a cooler ok.

[bolt pp]

stf up we are 9 tabling (max my monitor slight overlap) and dont have time to run the maths we just shove and call it a cooler ok.

lol

pls drink always and dont EVER stop posting!

[Royal Flush]

it has been said that because i folded that players could use this to exploit me in future hands, ok to assume that i guess but remember no one at the table saw what i folded anyway..so what can they exploit? if they assume they can adjust there game and re-raise me on the flop a lot etc etc ,do they honestly think i wont adjust back? most thinking players would you know !!

If i am sat at this table and see you play this hand i am insta putting a note on you that reads maniac/clueless and i will delete one of those at a later date because you have either made some crazy spewy CR bluff on the first level or have CR a hand with value and then folded, either way you are a bad player so i don't need to know your hand.

Anyway to Tikay i am not going into it again, every bet we make gets us info but it should never be the primary aim of the bet.

Anyone who really wants to know read the old tread.