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if you had an infinite number of  monkeys (that really type at random)  sitting at an infinite number of typewriters for an infinite
number of years typing at random then it could be accepted as a probability that one would eventually type the entire works of Shakespeare.


As the entire work can be too much to calculate,

How long we would expect a monkey to type out 1 of the Shakespeare's sonnets? and how can I calculate this?

U can't. Its because of the reliability on infinity, you cant then create an actual probability.

This is kios theory isn't it? If I attempt to walk through a wall an infinate number of times, at some point I will be able to walk through it! Something like that anyway. Its a load of rubbish but you can't argue against it....

it is all rubbish - please see my post in the thread from around this time last year!

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=4953.0

;)

Interestingly I did this as my doctorate thesis. Sadly the results were immediately classified under the Official secrets act by the then John Major government who actually had infinite monkeys doing this in a basement in Whitehall


the answer is 44.


Glad to be of help

Apparently, if I play AA an infinite amount of times, it will eventually stand up.

I think that's nonsense though.

You can calculate this, I am very sure of that.... ;D

An infinite amount of Shakespeare's Sonnets will be churned out.

I'd also assume, an infinite number of pages of complete gibberish.



Tons of fun to be had there, wrestling with the nature of infinity.

Say you do work it out, and the gibberish is 100,000,000,000 times more likely than the sonnet, we'd expect to find one sonnet for for every 100,000,000,000 pages of gibberish. However, we have infinte sonnets, does this mean me have infinty times 100,000,000,000 pages of gibberish. We can't have that. Infinte is infite, we only multiply it when we are 8 years old and having an argument.

So in the case of infinty, and all things infinte, size would not appear to matter. ::)

If you have an infinite number of monkeys/typewriters/bananas, then your monkeys will produce all combinations of characters, so if your monkeys type one character a second, the number of seconds required would simply be the number of characters in the sonnet you're after.

That's quantum theory and, if you're dealing in infinities, then it's true.

Personally I think we must wait for Poppet's thoughts before closing this debate. Her view is likely to be definitive.

Unfortunately she won't be able to get to her computer.

If she moves from where she is now, to her computer she will pass a halfway point. Travelling from this halway point to the computer again, she will meet another halfway point and so on an infinite number of times. On the idea you can get infinately small pieces of space by continuing to halve and halve, a young girl like that, by definition, cannot move through infinite points.

So, in theory, this debate will never end, ever.

so let's say that the sonnet has 500 characters, does it mean that it will take only 500 seconds for infinitive numbers of monkey to type a sonnet?

If they're typing a one character a second then yes.

Think about it - in the first second, your infinite number of monkeys all type one character. Some of them will type the one you're after - the rest won't. If you then remove the typewriters from all the monkeys who typed the wrong letter, you still have an inifinte number of monkeys left.

Once they type the second letter, you do the same, removing the typewriters from the monkeys who typed the wrong letters. There are still an inifinte number of monkeys left over. There always will be. So you can go on doing this till the sonnet is complete.

Tantrum, can you work out how many copies of the sonnet you'll end up with?

No, it will take one second.  An infinite number of monkeys will be able to type the infinite number of combinations required in the first second.

No

They'll all type at different speeds. Some pausing to scratch their arse, some tapping away as if possessed by a jungle demon.

What is the maximum speed a monkey can type? As there are an infinte number etc etc, we'll assume an infinite number typing at the maximum speed.

I assume it's more than one character a second. I'd estimate you'd have your sonnet in under 30 seconds. Problem is finding it.

Not if they're typing at one character a second, which is admittedly an arbitrary contraint I placed to make the explanation easier. There are infinte monkeys and infinite typewriters, but each monkey can't type infintely quickly.

just a thought - we'd work quicker if you put us at computer keyboards. We still havent got the hang of moving the bar back to the beginning of the next line when the bell pings! ;)

The monkeys are trained by giving them a banana everytime they make the bell ping, but only if they do it at the end of a full line of text.

The number of monkeys currently available for typing school is not infinite.
Neither is the number of any other creature on earth.
Therefore, you will have to type the sonnet yourself.
 ;)

No one's doing any typing - you can print it off the internet.

OK i will repeat how long it will take a monkey - meaning one monkey to type out the sonnet.  So among the whole numbers of monkey in the trial, 1 will get it right.  So the time is finite, we might predict that.

wow, thats a lot of bananas - anyone give me the address of this typing pool?

Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.

Now did anyone time me ???

If you're really really lucky, just under 30 seconds.

yes providing the monkey can type 16 characters per second.

What are the chances of me being lucky are?

See previous post regarding jungle demons and possesion.

Everything is infinite, end of!!!

I've never been able to accept infinity as a number and challenged this concept when I was much younger and a budding maths whizz. How can you have an infintinte number of monkeys when infinity is nothing more than a concept? If you are to accept an infintite number of moneys all on keyboards then they would finish the entire works immediately between them.

LOL
anything on obsessions and compultions?\

1 monkey doing one sonnet.

i'll take that as a no then? :'(

i'm not doing it again - its lunchtime!!

can I go back to bed yet?

I tried to time you, but my watch goes up to infinity, so I didn't notice the hands move.

If it's a clever monkey, it could just copy and paste.

TightEnd is infinitely tired, but has an infinite number of beds in his bedroom. How long does it take him to change the sheets?

To infinity, and beyond!

Doe she has inifinite number of sheets?

Unfortunately you would always type Ctrl Alt Del twice in a row before making a sonnet.

If you can put a number on them they are not infinite

Yeah, "infinite number" is oxymoronic

she?

If it takes a week to walk a fortnight, how long does it take to sandpaper an elephant down to a greyhound?

Brown?

If you sandpaper an elephant to the size of a greyhound, then I suppose it would look like a red dog.

Anyway, back to TightEnd's sex change. Did you go for Dingdell's treatment Tighty and, if so, where exactly did she put the tube?

I went alright, came back feeling all woman.

week     x     elephant size      x      walking speed
fortnight        greyhound size            grade of sandpaper

then multiply this number by pi infinite times.

ah...infinity is nothing more then a concept..then again..so are numbers.

The greyhound ate the pi, and they glued me to a yak.

Edited for accuracy.

Would explain why you hang around outside the ladies loos.

...and you have Kev's shopping list.

You lot have far too much time on your hands ... GET A JOB !!!

Best place to find desperate woman?

But they're different concepts, so the point still stands

Not if you try to stand it on it's point, well maybe, but it won't stand still.

not really. Infinity can not exist without the concept of numbers therefore essentially it is the same thing.

Extending that logic....

Tightend could not have existed without a female so therefore, essentially he is the same thing.

Checks out so far.

No, I said infinite number. that's a difference from putting a number on infinite amount of sheets would be incorrect.  But in theory i can have infinite number of sheets.

Sry Tighty,
did not mean to give you a sex change, just the mention of bed-sheets -changing left me a bit confused.

going back to bed now

that's what the doctor said when Tighty went to get his appendix removed. ;)

Q: Divide 14 sugar cubes into 3 cups of coffee so that each
cup has an odd number of sugar cubes.
A: 1,1,12
Q: 12 isn't odd!
A: It's an odd number of cubes to put in a cup of coffee

Yes it can, they both only need the existence of group theory - see this book for more information - http://www.amazon.co.uk/First-Course-Abstract-Algebra-Groups/dp/1584885157 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/First-Course-Abstract-Algebra-Groups/dp/1584885157) - it's a cracking read, it really is :D

Checked it out, might even buy it or rent it from the library...


The only think i gather that infinite number does not exist in real number system.  Right or wrong?

damn you and your links...now I actually have to read it!

From what I can remember infinity was a very small, but interesting, part of this course. But it does make your head hurt.

Edit: And that's even before you get on to the fact that there are 2 infinity's, and one of them is bigger than the other. :D

so does quantum physics but had to read that after reading Brief history of time...won't say I get it all but find myself unable to resist this stuff. :(

flawed in many parts the theory and I argued against "infinity" when I was 14. If nobody can show me it I dont believe in it, bit like God and the existance of a sane/non psychotic woman.

How would you define 'sane/non psychotic?'  ;ifm;

are u a woman?

I could give you an infinite number of examples, if only I had a room full of monkeys and typewriters...

I don't think even with an infinite number of monkeys and infinite nr of typewriters (otherwise some monkeys would sit there doing nothing) in an infinite amount time, would you be able to come up with an answer that wouldn't get tantrum in a huff. It's what women do ;)

if tantrum is a woman it would be pointless trying to explain sane/non psychotic....she wouldn't understand anyway ;)

Not if you'd use logic, no. (my infinite nr of monkeys typed that...that's was the best response after "go back to the kitchen and make me supper, woman!". the rest were just offensive ;)

Just make sure you don't get an infinite number of female monkeys.......

Do you imply that non sane and non psychotic can't understand simple definitons?

Also don't mix non sanity with stupidity ;)

Im not mixing. Just because all women aren't sane doesnt mean they are all stupid.

Well if i am a woman, and therefore non sane and psychotic, and you say that does not mean i am stupid, it would be safe to say that there is a probability of me being able to understand your definition of' non-sane/ psychotic'  So my gender is not an issue.   ;)

my head hurts

is that not what the woman normally says to you?

Tightend is sane.

Big fleas have little fleas
on their backs to bite um
Those fleas have other fleas
and so on, ad infinitum.

Boldie and you have not even started the

'A First Course in Abstract Algebra: Rings, Groups and Fields
by Marlow Anderson'

But I can see that Red Dog has already started the first chapter... ;D

used to be..now the judge says I can't come within a mile of the ladies anymore...that's why i moved to Glasgow..no ladies here :)

if you had an infinite amount of monkeys and an infinite amount of typewriters then you would need an infinite amount of space to accomodate them, would there be enough space left for you to be able to check them for the works of shakespeare?

Or a janitors closet. Things may get infinately messy.

If you would get an infinite space then of course you would have enough of space left for you...

But surely the infinite monkeys etc. would take up all the room?

LOL
How big is the room?

You put a dividing wall down the middle. Half of infinity is still infinity, so you put the monkeys in one infinite bit of the room, then you can have the other bit all to yourself.

but you'd need an infinite amount of monitoring equipment to keep an eye out on them..and since you couldn't do that all by yourself you'd need an infinite amount of supervising monkeys.

if the supervising monkeys get more bananas than the typing monkeys then can i redirect my application form to the relevant department? :)up

 ;izimbra;

there is no need to put the wall in the middle.  I have  a problem with the middle.  Where is the middle of the infinity?
 :dontask:

I suppose if the room is infinite then the wall can be anywhere really but then we can create the space of finite within infinite....

anyone got some neurofen?

I just used mine...I'm sure Matt has some...all good Senior supervising monkeys do.

wow, i've gone from trainee typing applicant to senior supervising monkey in less than one day - i like this company!!

p.s. what's the companies name? ???

p.p.s. we dont do pills in my part of the jungle sorry (though i'm beginning to regret that! :D)

And how does the company make any money to pay for all the monkeys and equipment?

We got Rob Yong to sponsor us :) he thought it was the best idea he'd ever heard of...well since the guy asking him to pay for doing up his house obviously.

by selling whatever doesnt appear to be a Shakespeare sonnet to either Mills and Boon or Jackie Collins

Suggestions for company name:

SimeonSonn'u'ts

'ApetheBard'
'

I think it possible to solve this mathematically and although I'm not a mathematicatian I'm going to give it a go. Someone smarter than me can correct my errors if they are so inclined.

To simplify matters we provide our theoretical monkey with an adapted keyboard with just the letter keys a key for space and a return key (28 characters). We will for give the monkey a lack of punctuation.

A sonnet has 14 lines, if we assume that each line averages 40 characters including the spaces and the need to hit return at the end of each line then the average sonnet consists of 560 characters (14x40).

To successfully complete a sonnet the monkey must randomly complete a 560 character sequence where the chance of hitting each correct character is 1/28. The probabilty of this happening is 560 to the power of 28, you can then divide that number by 154 which is the number of sonnets written by shakespere.

If my maths is correct you get something close to this being the chance that a monkey complete a sonnet.

5,800,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000/1

If the average amount of time for the monkey to complete a 560 character sequence is 10 minutes then you can add another zero to the number above to give you an average number of minutes that it would take to complete a sonnet.

Do I get a gold star or a red cross?

ok divide infinity (the number of monkeys) by that number and you get zero- ie they would complete it instantly. Thats why infinity doesn't exist in my eyes.

90 posts later....

Wardonkey
you are spot on
I think you don't need to divide by 154 as we are calculating only one sonet of the 560 character sequence so 28^560 possibillites only.

By Dividing by 154 wouldn't we  have to assume that each sonnet has 560 characters?




so 560 *10 minutes/6 per hour/144 per day/52560 a year.  so it would take a monkey 28^560/52560 years to type out the sonnet.

Ariston, we are talking about 1 monkey completing the sonnet.

As to infinity   - if you have only a finite number of outcomes and you can take inifinite numbers of trials  you will get what you asked for.

Also the infinity number does not exist as a real number, so you have a point there.

I'm assuming that the average sonnet has 560 characters and that any Shakespere sonnet is acceptable rather than one in particular.

Ok,
now i am confused,

why are we diving this number and not multiplying.

In my head I have 28( number of key combinations) ^560*154

(560*154) this particular sequence that will contain specific character order of 154 sonnets ?

Blimey - i did it over 7 hours ago and your still sat here with calculators trying to figure it out?!?!?!?!?!?!

And the reason they don't do pills in the jungle is........

......wait for it.......









Cuz the parrots eat em all          Boom boom rotflmfao

Get it?

parrots eat em all.......Paracetamol?

I'll get my coat

<a href="http://plugin.smileycentral.com/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.smileycentral.com%252F%253Fpartner%253DZSzeb008%255FZNxmk762YYGB%2526i%253D36%252F36%255F20%255F1%2526feat%253Dprof/page.html" target="_blank">[img width= height= alt=SmileyCentral.com" border="0]http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_20_1.gif[/img]

Ariston, we are talking about 1 monkey completing the sonnet.

no we werent the thread started by saying an infinite number of monkeys. If you had just one monkey in a room on its own it would never complete the sonet because it would be too busy masturbating and digging in its own backside to see if it can find anything interesting.

Read the original question properly, then be funny ;) 

If we assume that the average sonnet length is 560 then the probabilty of producing a particular sonnet is (560^28)/1. As the we would settle for any one of 154 sonnets to get the probability that any one of those 154 would be produced we need to divide 560^28 by 154. If you multiply you get a bigger number, indicating less chance, which cannot be correct.

yeh i did- maybe all women are stupid too ;)
if you had an infinite number of monkeys it says. As I dont accept infinity as a number you would have to be more precise with your parameters. How long we would expect a monkey? well not quite sure what you meant to say but if you meant how long would we expect it to take one monkey to type out a sonnet then I have said it would never happen and explained why above.

several of shakespears sonnets start with the same series of letters (a similar first word etc) so the above equation would be incorrect anyway.

also when you have worked out how many different combinations of characters you would then need to divide this by how how fast the monkey types to work out how long it would take (dont forget to allow picking backside/playing with self breaks).

I'm not claiming that my calculations are spot on. I've made several approximations.

I'm just trying to show that the question can actually be answered, rather than give a definitive answer. It is a theoretical question answered theoretically...

    Let me not to the marriage of true minds
    Admit impediments. Love is not love
    Which alters when it alteration finds,
    Or bends with the remover to rock on down, wibble wibble wibble wooo.

Dammit, so close....

Pah, who needs infinite monkeys, i could get the job done with 1 monkey, 1 typewriter and a box. Drop monkey and typewriter in box, close box and there you go. If you open the box and there's not a sonnet in there it's your own damn fault for not collapsing the waveform correctly.


Schrodinger - Physics's own Chewbacca Defence  :D

..or for not putting airholes in the box.

This thread could go on forever...

now tell me ariston when in the question i
I say infinite monkeys?

To clarify for you again 'how long for a monkey - a meaning one - ' and 1 sonnet.

I am sure your focus on stupidity of women clouds your ability to see the logic behind a simple question.;)


1 sonnet -1  sequence, each different sonnet is a sequence of characters, but if you take the whole 154 sonnets in order and look at it as one long sequence then the correct calculations can be made.  

infinite thread?

This is brilliant!!
The anser could be anything then because the question of whether the monkey had actually written the sonnet or not is unknown for the life expectancy of the monkey, you could assume it had written it at any point before death :D

Love it!!

the first post in this thread wasn't just one sentence was it tantrum? If you wanted to know how long it would take one monkey why didn't you just say that instead of going on about infinite monkeys? (ok your a woman and probably needed to discuss it in detail before asking what you what you actually wanted to know) If you were to take just one monkey I would say it would never happen as the monkey would get bored long before it ever completely a sonnet or would simply die of old age. so my final answer chris would have to be "never".

also you cannot use the chewbacca defence as as precident has already been set- chewbacca did not live with the ewoks after all it was just terrible scripting

If the giraffe could leap, pound for pound, as high as the grasshopper, they would avoid a lot of trouble.

I disagree, the giraffe would either kill itself on landing or find itself in orbit. Either scenario must be more trouble than any situation that it mind find itself. I submit that simply running away is the giraffes best option when it comes to trouble avoidance.

or hiding

It's quite interesting to think that if all the Chinamen in the world linked hands they'd girdle the earth three times.

Three time, eh? That's amazing.

I wouldn't call it amazing. I'm not amazed by it. I just take an intelligent interest in it. Of course, I've not bothered to check up at all. I've just taken it on trust. I've not got time to go round organising Chinamen to link their hands, and the practical difficulties are immense. You'd have to have rafts over the sea. Anyway, I shouldn't think they'd agree to do it. But it's quite interesting as a fact.

They could all fit on the Isle of Wight as well - apparently.  But an infinite number of monkeys couldn't.  Unless you had a big box...

Ariston,
Thank you very much for your  logical arguments. You are a prime example how some men use their brains to their best potentials.
To be honest I am so jealous of you.  Your intellectual abilities are superior to any other man I met in my life.  

I am so priviledged to come across such a fine and sophisticated man, who can debate issues without any prejudices.  You are a role model; if I will ever have a son, I will make sure that he will grow into a man like yourself.

It is a greatest priviledge to be able to communicate with you on this thread.  I know I am just a woman, but perhaps being able to listen to your wisdom I can learn something useful (although I doubt it, as my brain cannot think about anything more complicated then how to operate a washing machine)

Isn't that all the people in the world.

The Chinamen could do it with a bit of space to spare. Do you think that's why they don't like us, and get their Noth Korean buddies to bomb us all up? To prepare for the contingency where The Isle of Wight is the only inhabitable piece of earth left, and they want themselves some elbow room.

Religion...Oil...Border disputes, it's all just a myth.

Interesting facts start wars.

It was kind of evident anyway, but it's nice of you to say so.

what about Chinawomen? what are they going to do when all the men are holding hands?

They will be doing the laundry, what else they can do?

Tantrum, I was going to ask if you worked in a laundry, but thought better of it  ;)

btw can you fix my washing machine, it keeps clicking of the programme  ;hide;  ;D

I would love to, but the problem is i only know how to put the laundry in and out and press the power button ( it took me years to learn even that).

I am sure I can ask some men to come and help you ;)

Hehehe tantrum. I was wondering where the line was where I could prove my all women are psychotic comment earlier (although obviously not all stupid as those washing machines are quite tricky and were obviously designed to be only operated by females). Do women understand the concept of a wind up or does this fall into the lack of sense of humour in most women category (another thread entirely I think).

Sry Ariston, but sense of humour is to much for a female brain.  Only laundry, kitchen sink and stove can be operated.  You are really asking too much.

theres the other duty women must peform or are you not a pleasure model tantrum?  ;ifm;

I am sorry, but my brain is too small to understand your question.

If there was an infinate amount of monkeys then there would be no room for the typewriters as each piece of space would be taken up by a monkey throughout the universe and beyond. If however there is an infinate amount of monkeys and typewriters the problem maybe paper?

Who made the typewriters? the infinate amount of monkeys?

Wont you need an infinate amount of ink?


Going to bed, my head hurts >:?

Ok, read the thread and just about got the gist of it.

Infinity can best be described by getting a shitload of female, Chinese monkeys to bash the keys of whatever typewriters remain in the Isle Of Wight whilst at the same time holding hands and doing the washing. The purpose of which is to ensure that future generations can read Shakespeare and walk around in clean clothes.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You forgot the giraffes...

F*** INFINITY - WHERE'S MY BANANA??

:(

Shitoad of male chinese monkeys holing the hands, while all women doing laundry to ensure that future generations can read Shakespeare and walk around in clean clothes.

Otherwise your summary is correct.
 ;D

Nearly but not quite, assuming the maths is right than that's the time in which you could EXPECT the monkey to complete the sonnet, it could take the monkey anywhere from 10 minutes to 28^560/52560 years to actually complete it.

;whistle;

Nearly but not quite, assuming the maths is right than that's the time in which you could EXPECT the monkey to complete the sonnet, it could take the monkey anywhere from 10 minutes to never to complete it.

In order to complete the sonnet we could take 28^52500 monkeys and among them one would be able to complete either in 10 mins or xx^AAAAA years.

Of of them would get it.

the chances of that would be...............whatever.

I think in Japan this guy calculated and created every single melody that could be made using western scale.  Now how many melodies can be there? i think he took into account chord progressions/tempos/different keys and so on.  neurofen please.

Whatever you do, do NOT take an infinite number of headache tablets.

but what if you get an infinite number of heachaches?

I used to have an argument with my mates over a pet theory I had on creating an encyclopedia of everything.

A CD holds about (roughly) 650 MB = 650 * 1024 * 1024 * 8 = 5.5 billion individual bits of information which gives you 2^5,500,000,000 possible combinations.
I reckoned that if you were to burn all of these CD's then everything that there is possible to know (including music, tv, shakespear sonnets etc) would then be stored in this CD library. Admittedly there are a couple of flaws but I still reckon it would be worth a bash and only requires 1 monkey to switch the CD's over when they have finished burning.

cool, now we get to set fire to things too!! :)up

damn you monkeys life the good life!

But would you be willing to take the pay cut, I'm pretty sure that this will pay less bananas than a Senior Supervising Monkey gets. :)

True.

If only one monkey is required then the role of senior supervisor is also taken by same said monkey - therefore as the only one i am senior supervisor and chief burner monkey all rolled into one, and will be paid at the higher rate of bananas. :)

infinite bananas seems only fair to me.

No chance, in ten years bananas will be extinct, apparently...

oh crickey...I wonder how Matt will take this.

Owwwwwwwwwww myheads hurting, but not half as much as Russ's will do if I ever see him again!!


Ya  Male chauvinist git bag!    ;bat;

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=17457.0

There may be a change in current figures!!!

I just read this whole thread and have had to resort to alcohol now to retain my sanity !!