blonde poker forum

Like the housemates so far :D

Although if they talk too much it would do my head in

psycho's

 >:?

my ears hurt

*repeat to self*

I will not watch big brother this year
I will not watch big brother this year

Managed two whole weeks last summer!

I WOULD lose my mind if i had 2 spend time with them, not bad to watch though

I don't watch much of it, but I like to see the wierdo's go in.

Don't like the cooker in the bedroom, just seems pointless to me.  The big beds are 'wacky' the cooker in the bedroom isn't

ooooo boos already for this one (can't remember her name!)  Oh Charlie?

i would

yeah was a bit harsh I thought.  Nice legs.

one too many pills this one.

i am getting worried about my bet on a male winner

though i think there isnt a real winner amongst the girls so far

the problem is are there going to be any men?

Radio 1 said it would all be women for the first week ... then they will introduce a bloke

bugger looks like i am going to have to wait for it to real 1.5 then

cool :D

What's this dizzy one "there's this new music taking over the country - it's called indie"

LOL  It's been around for years love :D

I LOVE HER

i would

She is the best of the bunch so far ... almost normal... and i would

be rude not to.

Kev ... did I miss your 10,000 post ... was it something special, a review of pie value in local outlets?

theres the first bloke ... is it Sofa in drag ??

lol :D

I like the Posh Spice lookeelikeee

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=24073.0

there ya go Jon ;)

oi   thats a bit unfair to say that about Miss Wales

LMAO now we have Tighty in drag !!!

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

 rotflmfao rotflmfao

I watched a bit earlier purely so I know who people are talking about in the weeks to come.  The bird that is the cousin of the footballer absolutely loves herself.  There are some nice looking ones of the bunch, but they would drive me nuts after a few hours.  I feel scared that I would probably end of talking to the oldest one of the lot as she is calm and doesn't talk a whole lot .

peaches geldof lookalikey and posh spice lookalikey in some jelly/bath/naked wrestling type task please big brother. And yes I would with both- very rude not to kev.

what I did like about the first show was the fact that within 5 mins of it starting both twins (although very annoying) were winking at me. you may think they have done it deliberately to make sure they get in tomorrows daily sport but maybe they really are just blonde and forgot their thongs.

Emily has been removed from the Big Bro house for making a racist remark.  Of course they are clamping down on such behaviour due to the farce of Celebrity Big Bro.

Bad night for C4 last night I expect, first the Diana program, then BB having a racist word in it.

Still, C4 deserves it for it's lack of morals.

Why, oh, why did it have to be the pretty one with the cute bum that gets kicked out? :)

Fantastic piece of over-reaction from Endemol. She uses a racist word against another housemate, and they decide to kick her out without even consulting the housemate on the receiving end. 'Don't worry Charley, no need to ask if you're upset or offended - we've already decided that for you.'

Now Channel 4 and Big Brother have their scapegoat which they can wave in front of OFCOM - 'Look, aren't we responsible now?'.

To be fair to Channel4 , the girls were a bit shocked with Emily's 'friendly' name calling.....Try it at work and see how long you will hold on to your job...


  Shame she is gone as she is a total psycho...

The whole BB audience was shocked by the Celeb BB last year but not a lot was done about it.  Over one word, I think it's been blown out of proportion and she's being made a scapegoat for C4's failings in the past.

Emily is just a naive little posh girl who simply thinks that's how the lower classes speak to each other. To hang all your company's problems onto an 18 year-old girl and then push her out into the ravenous, hate-filled mouths of the media, simply so that you can get brownie points with the regulator is very, very low.

I will never ever ever read this thread. Ever.

Don't feel sorry for ignorant stupid people..

You have to feel sorry for them, otherwise they don't stand a chance.

Which one is Emily?    Who is the bird who absolutely loves herself and is a relative of the football player?    I honestly thought that was a lady boy( sorry,  I don't know the politically correct way of saying that ),  I was amazed when I read she is a lap dancer and model.  I watched the first episode when they went into the house, since then I always thought the footballers cousin was a blonde,  I saw a pic of her the other day and realised I had my people mixed up

I did try it at work with the directors of the company - I don't think they took it too well. They've called me in for 'a chat'.

(http://elpasotimes.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/wutangclan.jpg)

 rotflmfao

I'm not feeling sorry for her - I just think the punishment will far outweigh the crime.

And the real villains of the piece (those who collect up idiot kids, stick them in front of live TV and get very rich from the profits as the kids make fools of themselves) benefit greatly from it.

the one on the right

(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43015000/jpg/_43015137_shabnam_emily.jpg)

Cousins? Brothers more like!!!

(http://www.whatsontv.co.uk/images/07531_143706_BB8CHARLEY.jpg)(http://image2.sina.com.cn/ty/g/p/2005-08-06/U1158P6T12D1705675F44DT20050806041942.jpg)

ok,  ty  scott and graham .    Brothers,  lol     

Reminded me of the south park episode this season(us) where stans dad is on wheel of fortune...

Oh just to note I still haven;t watched any big brother and im sticking to that!

Don't know how much longer I will honestly be able to say this, but I've still not watched any big brother this year  ;angel; 

I had a look about t'web to see what happened though after reading this thread.  Difficult position for Channel 4 to be put in - I think they probably made the right decision in making an example of her after the shocking way they handled the issues on the last celebrity series. 

I note that the Commission for Racial Equality have welcomed Channel 4's stance - responsible broadcasting indeed.

Ridicolous over-reaction by C4.

I agree it is an over-reaction but it was always going to happen.  They were always going to pounce on the first remark that is even borderline racism and act accordingly so as to try to show that they are the good guys now.

I blame Rap and hip-hop culture.

has to be zero tollerance on her choice of words.
she may not have meant it maliciously but she had to go.


I work with a bunch of guys who use that sort of language all day. Strange that otherwise decent blokes can use such unpleasant language. Its wierd in this day and age to be the only person in a room that finds words like nigger and paki distasteful. I think its good that C4 / Endemol have been strict on it. they're sending a message that it's not acceptable in any context.

Where's the line though. Ni**** is a commonly used word in many circles, particularly african american, if they use it to each other then it is okay? But someone outside that ethnic origin it is not?.

For me racism is all about context rather than content. I havent seen the clip so I'm not saying that it was/wasn't.

I disagree. content AND context for me

the language used in black music is a different issue and definitely something that needs tackling but those words are in common daily usage and that can't be acceptable anynore surely?

is it the case that it is acceptable for all african americans to use that word with any other african american though?  I very much doubt it.  I presume it's like many derogatory terms people will use among their friends, but not outside their social circle.

One might, for example, refer to a friend in jest as a 'fat c***', but it still doesn't make it an acceptable thing to say to an acquaintance or on a TV show.

To be fair I don't think they'd have slung her out for that but it's not quite the same thing either. a one on one personal insults is one thing but racially abusive language has hundreds of years of weight to it that make it a bigger issue I think. If Charlie had used the same language my guess is it would have resulted in her going too.

i think its all about context and not content

if myself and a friend were playing WC basketball and we called each other cripples it would be ok but if going down the street someone tries to belittle me by calling me a cripple then its not ok

many people use th N word in the context i use the crippled word and no offence is meant or taken but if the N word is used to belittle someone then it becomes offensive

i think emily fell into a slight trap she is 18  from a posh background and watches MTV and was trying to fit in and thought that the use of the word was apropraite IMHO it wasnt and the company she was in told her (which as mature adults people need to do more) rather that kicking her out it should of been used as an example of context v content in how the 2 other girls involved handled the situation

I am not really into this but would it not be a good idea to let Paris H serve the remainder of her time here, surly that must be equal to prison..

Brilliant!

I agree. Was just trying to find an analogy to illustrate why I don't believe the word 'nigger' is generally acceptable among african americans.  Today is not the first time I've heard people saying "it's ok for (a particular group) to use (a particular word) among themselves, so why are they offended when people from outside the group use it?" I don't think it's that black and white, so to speak.

Claw and Ironside are right.

Well said sir!!!

So saying something without malice is punishable by being kicked out?

A touch harsh?

I expect it'll just sound as daft and embarressing as if the silly posh white girl called her "homie"
It is harsh but fair. it has to be zero tollerance on language like that. I actually think the Shilpa poppudom thing was much more blown out of proportion. It was horrible bullying but that wasn't racist abuse. The racist stuff was muttered under the sheets by her fella.

10pm, lets have a look

Is this also racial?

If the 'celebrity' thing hadnt of happened then it probably wouldnt have been shown, but as it did it was probably right to take her out

erm....no!  She probably wouldn't be too happy about being labelled as 'silly' or 'posh', but I doubt she'd mind being referred to as 'white' in the same way that a black person wouldn't mind being referred to as 'black'.

You mean racist? not really. Silly posh white girl is a series of facts. I would only usually say silly posh girl but in this instance white is relevant which is why I Included it. there might be times describing Charlie, it would be relevant to include black but normally gobby nasty piece of work will do. the choice of word Emily dragged up from her subconscious, straight to her mouth is never going to be appropriate.

looked pretty clear cut to me. She may not have said it to hurt Charlie but that's not really the point.

Emily probably lives in a world where she and her white friends call each other that. I think she genuinely believes it's not offensive  >:?
Charlie lives in a world where she probably hears that sort of thing in the background but the norm is to have to shrug it off. She clearly was offended by it but was probably losing an ally if Emily went.

straight red :redcard: no question

Are you sure? I remember when i was growing up it was pc to say coloured rather than black. Now coloured is taken as offensive to a lot of black people.

The statement i quoted separates somebody's background and ethincity and is meant to be derogatory and therefore has a racial element.

There is a different between racial and the traditional view of 'rascism'.

Just caught the start of BBLB and there's split between people from all cultures about whether what she said was offensive.

I think use of the word 'coloured' was presented as the PC term to use (before PC became common parlance!), not by black people but probably by well meaning white people trying not to offend, but inadvertently potentially doing so.  I've certainly never met a black person that took offence to being described as black.

I don't take offence to be called white either.

Claw, you seem to inadvertantly made that quote look like mine. would you mind awfuly adjusting it so the actual author is credited.

you have, thanks :)up

beat you to it!  apologies :)

There are also many black people who aren't offended by the word used, depending of course on context.

A racial (and yes I mean Racial not Racist Adam) term includes all things that separate race and characterics of race. Its irrelevant whether they are offensive.


Anyhow, Will be interesting to see how things develop from here. I pretty tired of there being so many girls in there (never thought i'd say that) but they waste so much time and energy bitching and being over dramatic! Can understand why they wouldnt have done it the other way round, with just blokes in, wouldnt have been great tele!!

I think the trouble with this programme (and one of the reasons I no longer bother with it) is that every year they've got to come up with some new gimmick to keep it fresh.  As I said, I've not watched it yet - maybe would have been tempted to tune in by now if it wasn't all women!

it's fine to describe people in terms of race where it's relevant. I understand what you're saying about racial / racist. I was going to say Black and white are racial descriptions, but of course they're not. they're skin colour descriptions. White South Africans and Black Englishmen etc. thats another conversation (and a deep one) fact is the word Emily chose IS racist.

I'm sure it's true there are some black people not offended by the term used. I'm sure they're far out weighed by those who are and say so, as well as those who are but don't make a fuss.

I will say though, I'm not looking forward to the tabloids stringing the girl up. She's made a mistake and hopefuly it'll make her rethink what words are acceptable and which aren't

No kidding

This attitude really bothers me.

I am not being critical about Adam's views here and indeed recognise them to be indicitive of mainstream opinion. But, for me, this thought process is in part responsible for the pc-obsessed world we now live in. I was born in 1973. I have absolutely no apologies to make for the historical sins of the British Empire. When I interact with different races I do so on an equal footing.

Let's say you are the boss of a company and are currently interviewing for a position in your business. You decide that a black applicant is the best qualified for the job but you deny him this opportunity because you prefer whites. This is racism and it is quite rightly a crime.

In the BB House Emily has gravitated towards Charley and they have become mates without predjudice and as equals. This is racial integration....Isn't this the ultimate goal of the pc brigade? Emily, I would imagine, has little knowledge of, or indeed interest in, the history of the Empire. She's living in the today....and quite rightly so! Her comment was clearly not because as a "white" she felt she was the superior human being!!! I mean will everyone just stop, take a deep breath, and take a look at what is happening to the world.

We think that if you say a WORD, a certain dreaded word, you should be immediately and severely punished.

How ridiculous.

The person who declares "...you are a stupid fat bitch..." with the malice and motivation to cause hurt is quite clearly guilty of a greater moral crime. Emily is ignorant to historic race issues and treats her new friend as her equal or perhaps even someone she wants to impress. And as such it is wholly irresponsible for the producers to sling accusations of racial abuse at this girl. It is what you think that matters.

This girl is living in modern day Britain. And in today's world she is freely mixing with lots of different races in her, no-doubt, multi-cultural community. Much older, historically-minded dinosaurs shoving hundreds of years of black oppression down an 18 year-olds throat with this gross over-reaction is surely not the best way to tackle genuine racial discrimination in this country.

The Hurt Feelings Brigade have a multi million pound empire to sustain,
The ones with hurt feelings will be writing columns in papers and doing interviews on tv, all for a tidy sum no doubt.
It makes business sense to keep the sins of the past in the public eye and deem certain words to be grossly offensive so that when someone falls short of what they see as acceptable they can start raking it in.

Great post, in my opinion. She used an extremely emotive word naively, but didn't, from what I understand, use it hatefully. That is (should be) a far lesser crime than the attitude from Celebrity BB, where less obviously "controversial" language was used with far more malicious and nastier intent.

The meanings and nuances of words change constantly. "Nigger" didn't used to be so widely considered such a taboo word (and its equivalents from the same derivation in other languages sometimes still aren't). It became a taboo word because of a change in attitudes, and it's probably now starting (admittedly only just starting, and only in some communities/cultures) to lose its taboo as attitudes change again. The same goes for "Paki", which I sometimes hear Pakistanis say to each other. The fact that both words remain highly sensitive isn't in doubt, but I don't think that they are necessarily always indicative any more of racial prejudice, and it seems to me that there is only the slimmest of cases here for accusing Emily of that.

Great Post!!

As a matter of interest do you think Channel 4 would have kicked Charlie out as well if she retorted the comment by calling her a Honky? Me thinks not.

It is a good post and I agree with most of it.
However, I doubt many people have been strung up for being a stupid fat bitch.
to the guys I mentioned in my earlier post, all black people are "niggers" all sub-continent asian people are "pakis" and all east asian people are "chinks" surely it's not pc-obsessed to think this sort of language is unacceptable.

IMO the way Emily used it was offensive and she had to go

Partly what grates with me throughout all of this is the fact that it seems to be mostly white people (the decision makers are overwhelmingly white) who are deciding that they are offended on behalf of black people. Lefty-liberal hand-wringing at its worst.

Discussions on the radio last night involved input from schoolteachers and those involved in community work with white and black teenagers and they said that, in areas of high racial diversity (where black cultural movements such as rap and hip-hop have huge influence) this is exactly how people talk to each other - white and black. For these kids 'nigger' began as a term of kinship between the black kids and was picked up and used in the same spirit by the white kids they hung out with.

They truly are 'colour-blind' and view each other not as separate because of their skin colour, but as the same because of where they grew up - they are one community.

It is laughable to think that, almost inadvertantly, these kids have achieved the true goal of racial integration, yet now they are seeing on the TV the message 'There are words that only people of one colour can say - white and black are different from each other'.

I still think Emily was kicked out purely so that the white people at the heads of Endemol and Channel 4 are able to look people like Trevor Phillips in the eye down at the Groucho club.

'Trevor, did you see us make an example of that white girl who said nigger? Let's forget that whole Shilpa/Jade thing now'.

I think people are forgeting they were told NUMEROUS times to be very careful of the language they used in the house, especially words that could be considered of a racist nature.

She simply had to go as CH4 have to be seen to be whiter than white (excuse the pun)  after the shenanigans of Celebrity Big Brother.

Did she mean it as an offensive term? No

Was she stupid and naive? Yes

Will this be forgetten tomorrow? Hell Yes.

 :goodpost:

I think if it wasn't for the shennanigans on celeb bb she'd have got a telling off and told not to do it again.  Channel 4 would have been in for a hell of a lot of stick if they'd let this pass. 

An interesting debate for sure.


It concerns me when we talk about the "interpretation" of words though. Why should you have the right to impose your associations and interpretations onto someone else? If Emily's intentions are wholesome and she uses a certain word with the aim of cementing ties with her new-found black friend, who has the right to scream racial abuse? Why should Emily have to accept somebody else's views?

Emily is not growing up in 60's Britain. She is in 21st century Britain, mixing with an array of nationalities and enjoying black music. It is just not appropriate, and clearly contradictory, for someone from a different generation and a different mindset to accuse her of racial stigmatism.

I read an article in the newspaper the other day which stated that a white footballer had been severely reprimanded by FIFA for calling a black footballer a "monkey" during a game. This really bothers me. I mean, to issue punishment is to give weight and credence to that comment. Is punishment forthcoming if the same footballer is accused of being a giraffe?....No!....So why then with the monkey comment? By not criticising the giraffe comment but then making a big deal out of the monkey jibe you reveal your own small-minded stereotypecasting in my book. To any sane, normal person the white footballer who made the comment (if he actually believed it) is closer to the ape-world than he may realise. In reality though he was probably trying to put a player he respected off his game. Black people are rightly proud of their heritage and colour and they don't need protection from such trivial nonsense.

Tackling deep-seated racism is no doubt a complex issue and a real challenge for any society. But surely education, debate and integration are the ways forward? If those in power think that knee-jerk over-reactionary punishment for the utterance of a word is the answer to the problem then God help us all.

Firstly, why do you have to be Black to be offended by the word Nigger? Why do you have to be Indian or Bangladeshi to be offended by Paki? I find it offensive and so do many many others. Most of us think no less of someone because of the colour of their skin but those that do have their own broad vocabulary that isn't acceptable to the majority of decent people of all colours and creeds.

I would think it was obvious that calling a black man a monkey is offensive. the suggestion that black people are further down the evolutionary ladder than white people is pretty unpleasant (and clearly untrue to anyone with half a brain). Giraffe? no ones ever been strung up for being tall. throwing apples onto a football pitch would be surreal and random but throwing bananas onto a football pitch is clearly meant to hurt.

I will reitterate I hope Emily isn't thrown to the wolves over this. she's made a careless remark but it's surely pretty obvious why C4 were always going to be zero tollerance on the matter. Lots of stuff was left out of the celeb BB and they got lots of stick for that too. that's why they also HAD to show the comment.

Racism is still a big problem in the UK, in areas that have a broad cultural mix and those that don't. I think tackling the words used has to play a big part in tackling that racism.

Was writing long reply but AdamM beat me to it:)

excellent post


i will just repeat what Adam said, this sums up the whole discussion here:

tackling the words used has to play a big part in tackling that racism

 

In the end Emily didn't say it to a friend, she said it to an aquaintance who didn't know her well enough to be sure there was nothing bad meant by it. The fact that Charlie kept going over it and was obviously confused and upset meant the use was effectively offensive. Just because Charlie tried to play it down and give her the benefit of the doubt says nothing to defend Emily & a lot for Charlie (who I'd have thought would have had a real go as she's a wee bit argumentitive).

Is she a racist? Don't know, although other stories of racist abuse are appearing in the press. BB had no option but to chuck her out though.

The argument that she hangs around with black people/black music as a defence won't fly in my estimation, I grew up in a mainly black country, and I am good friends with black, white, asian & arab people, I'd NEVER use some of their own insult words for themselves back to them, they've got to live with them, and if using them makes the word less powerful to them, good luck, but they've the right to do that, I don't.

As for white footballers calling black players monkeys - they deserve done. The time to allow a bit of leeway for ignorance is gone.

I get called a muppet quite a lot recently...

Funny enough that was a term of endearment to my ex - always made her laugh. I've never heard muppet used with racist conotations though.

No Rod you are right....I think it is Pokercist related..

Here's a simple guide for white folks on the use of the word.

http://www.glumbert.com/media/nword (http://www.glumbert.com/media/nword)

Prolly not really contributing to this thread (which is the norm for me) but I always find that the old sayings always prove to have much value in what they preach.  A stitch in time saves nine, one in the hand etc.......ever heard the one sticks and stones..... I can't help but feel that most people aren't really offended by many of the "politically incorrect" words used, they just jump on the bandwaggon and make a mountain out of a molehill.  Most will prolly disagree with me but......

On a slightly different note, several people have mentioned the word/term Paki which most Asian people take to be racially offensive. Surely there is no difference between calling a person from Pakistan a Paki and someone from Britain a Brit, in my eyes both are just abbreviations of Pakistani and British which I believe are the correct definitions of a person from either country. I certainly don't get offended by being called a Brit when I'm abroad.

As a white, English, able-bodied heterosexual, I have absolutely no experience of what it is like to be called names purely on the basis of my skin colour, nationality, disability or sexual orientation. I do not know where 'the line' is and when it has been crossed. How could I? I rely on people who do suffer that kind of abuse to indicate what is, and isn't, acceptable.

As a result, I'm not going to sit in judgement of what other people find offensive. There's a large element of 'I am offended by this and I think you should be too' running through much of the discussion I've read about this (in lots of places). If that comes from a black person then it has a lot of power behind it and should be heeded. Coming from a white person, not so much.

Nice one Andrew.

Paki is used to describe someone from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Derby, Leicester, Bradford, Nottingham......etc that's the problem with the term.

Because in most places Brit is not & never has been used as a derogatory term (although go to a pub in the Falls Road of Belfast & you'll soon realise it is used offensively). You can't tell me you've not heard Paki used as an abusive term in the UK surely?

So that makes me a huddi...

Res est magna tacere.

As far as I can tell, the term is only really ever used pejoratively. Even if it isn't (like in an early episode of Only Fools and Horses, where Del gives a kid 50p to 'go down the Paki shop and buy some sweets') someone who usually only ever hears it used pejoratively is going to associate it with a negative connotation.

White people face rasism in this country all the time on several differnet levels, to say that your "not black how could you know what its like" is utter b%^&^%S

You can't really have racism without an imbalance in power. Where is the loss of power for whites in this country?

I have also heard "Brit" used in an offensive way too. any word can be deemed offensive if there is venom and vitriol behind it.

My 15 year old son is into rap music (heaven help me) and regularly plays his music loudly, all i hear is Nigger this, Nigger that etc etc  .... I must admit to being extremely embarrassed when i hear him singing along etc, and have told him so ... His reply is all the kids at school listen to it, black and white alike and they use the word "Nigger" as a sort of friendly greeting.

And it seems that the word "Nigger" has been reclaimed by the Black community much to their credit i think. He also told me how they have regular discussions in class regarding this issue, and to be honest, racism is dying as our children are growing up in a multi cultural environment, there will always be ignorance in the world, but hopefully tolerance and understanding will take over in the next generation.

Who's said the utter b%^&^%S that you are complaining about?

I also very much doubt that the average member of the majority will encounter the same amount of racism as the average member of the minority in any country/community.

I did - the thread of my earlier post was 'how could a white person understand what it feels like to be called a nigger.'

Ah, I forgot that. I'd think anyone who has been racially abused would have some idea.

Thats encouraging i must say...


(http://a609.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/60/l_bc1f7b6d5002410f7708e243d5411a20.jpg)

oh geez where do I start....I do not want to start an argument with anyone so please keep that in mind if I post something stupid.  In the past I have been surrounded by several black (can I say black?) youths that said we are looking for a white (can I say white?) person to smack.  To be honest, if I was green they would be looking for a green person, if I was fat they would be looking for a fat person etc...I just think that too much is made of this racism thing most of the time, a thug is a thug and does what a thug does.  If I was attacked in the street by two black people it would be an assault.  If a black person was attacked in the street by two white people then the whole of Nottinghamshire Police force would be scrambled to assist in the capture of the dangerous racists.  Don't get me wrong, if someone is attacked either verbally or physically and suffers in any way genuinely because of race or whatever (and yes I admit that this does happen alot) then it is completely unacceptable.  I just think that maybe some the abuse/situations we can face daily that are classed as racism aren't really racism at all.  Ok now you can rip me to shreds, disagree with everything I have said, call me whatever, i'm staying away from the forum for 5 mins so get it off ur chests.........

I don't understand the logic of this statement. Any prejudice is based on judging someone purely by one factor (race/gender/sexual orientation etc).

If someone makes an assumption based on the fact that somebody is white, it is just as racist as making an assumption based on the fact that somebody is black. Other factors aren't relevant.

The power enables the prejudiced to act upon their prejudices. A lone white man who is racist against blacks would have zero influence in, say, Jamaica, because he has no power to turn his thoughts into the actual subjugation of blacks. In effect, it doesn't actually matter that he is racist - he can be ignored. Whereas a majority of whites who hold racist views against a minority of blacks are able, whether consciously or not, to subjugate the minority through their actions.

flibbertygibbert

Dishing out punishment because "offence" has been caused is a flaky way to govern people in my eyes.

Telling an over-sensitive colleague that you don't like her new hair-style could have a devastating impact on her confidence. No punishment. But a comment about race, even if no offence is caused, is deemed worthy of reprimand.

This train of thought will always lack consistency because causing offence is subjective....so how can you have objective guidelines?

If you cause offence but did not intend to do so who is to blame? Is it you for lacking tact or the other person for being too sensitive? Who knows?

The black footballer is called a monkey by his opponent....I understand the point that he may be suggesting black people are lower down the evolutionary ladder....BUT ALL PEOPLE ARE EQUAL. So why do we jump to attention to protect someone from laughable comments like this. I really don't accept that some people think other people are monkeys. If these people do exist then they are in need of our help not punishment. To punish the utterance of a word does not eradicate the problem, it just indicates that you shouldn't say those things out loud.

Many times I hear Americans called "fat", "stupid" and "rude". This is somehow deemed acceptable racism to the social pallet. It is more digestable because your target is white....so it's just a bit of fun. But to have a social ethos that allows Americans to be called fat hippos but is outraged when black people are called monkeys is actually a racist ethos through and through. You as a governing body are determining skin colour as a factor in your opinions. To not "see" colour and to not let colour sway your views either way is actually the utopia of racial equality.

Ignorance is sometimes going to cause offence. But to highlight ethic minorities as special cases in the offence stakes is to have an agenda based around skin colour...a very racist notion indeed.

as with being tall and being a stupid cow, no one's ever been strung up for having a bad hair do

Precisely. People are killed because of the colour of their skin.

Skin colour is also something you have no choice over. Being fat, rude or ignorant is a choice.

In the first instance you've stated that the you can't have racism without an imbalance in power but the second statement refers to such an imbalance of power being in place, and being racist.

These are two separate arguments;

to clarify do you think that racism not important if it can easily be ignored? (eg a black man being racist against whites in Britain)

or do you think that in this situation it is just  not possible to be racist (For Example if a Bangladeshi pupil holds racist views against whites in a predominantly white school they are not racist - but if they then get moved to a predominantly Bangladeshi school they suddenly become racist?)

You seem to link being racist or not to whether you can do anything with those views - but isn't it what is in peoples heads that is wrong with being racist, the views themselves - not how they can act upon them which is important?

 ;popcorn;

My point of view is that no one will stop racism...it will always be there on a daily basis... Whites calling Blacks, Blacks calling whites, Asians Calling whites Whites calling Asians, Asians calling Blacks, so on and so on.. Then you can ask Tom how he was treated when he tried to semi settle., if i remember rightly the local shop keeper refused to serve him....It continues in all walks of life. BUT.. it is a minority and if you just carry on and treat everyone as you find them and ignore the remarks, hold your head up when attacked with any form of racist remark and think i will not sink to that level these people will become less, never gone always there but will eventually they become a minority.

Mantism - please do read a defniniton of racism as it is in English language and more importantly the law which makes racist abuse/behaviour illegal.  Then come back and start your debate. 
No point of trying to tell you something if your knowledge on the subject is obviously limited.

My thought process is not governed by the literal definition of a word.

Racial discrimination is connected to race...not colour, and racial abuse is no different than any other kind of abuse/bullying.

People are not strung up because they are black but because the perpetrator of the crime is an ignorant thug. Hitler decided to wage war against the Jews because he was a madman not because the Jews were Jewish.

All around the world different races struggle to co-exist. Just look at the endless problems in Israel as an example. To solve this problem we need to be tolerant of each other and celebrate our differences. This is constantly hampered by cries of "offence" around every corner because it breeds resentment and intolerance.

Britain needs to stop apologising for things that happened hundreds of years ago and move forward as the multi-cultural modern day country that it truely is.

 ;applause;

I had a meeting a few weeks ago with the woman who leads on equalities for the NHS in my area. I said that I didnt want to get into the 'nitty gritty' on a certain subject. she told me that I should not say this as it has racist connotations:( you could have knocked me down with a feather. this has been part of my vocab for as long as I can remeber and i never ever knew there were issues with the term??

I need to try and not use it again incase it offends anyone..............................................Would any of you have thought this was racist?

What? Are you really suggesting that Hitler was no more than a psychopathic serial killer?


170 million people were killed in 20th century wars by nation states.

70% of them were civilians.

Most of them were killed because they belonged to particular ethnic or religious groups.



 

Well picked up. Bear in mind I am, to a certain extent, thinking out loud here (as it's not a subject I actively think about a lot), so there will be inconsistencies. Let me see if I can try and explain what I'm getting at.

People thinking racist thoughts may be wrong, but if they are never in a position to actively negatively affect someone of another race then is there a problem for society? This is where my 'white racist in Jamaica' argument comes from.

In such a position it is not that 'in this situation it is just not possible to be racist', but that such racism is not a problem for society. Where someone is powerless to act upon their thoughts does it really matter what they think?

Essentially I need two different words to describe 'thinking racist thoughts' and 'doing racist things' - using 'racism' for both leads to these inconsistencies.

Bring back the Bin Laden/Scandies analogies :)

zumbaflimflam


dashtanfastic



youre welcome

Hitler wanted to "cleanse" Germany to produce a pure race. He tried to do this by killing millions over a period of time. His notions were psychopathic and he tried to achieve them by murdering people so yes I think that tag fits the bill.

In the BB example Emily is not guilty of racial abuse or racial discrimination. She has been punished for causing racial offence. This is the "new" agenda that we are now dealing with. My point is that to connect "offence" specifically with race and then to suggest that it is particularly a more heinous type of offence is an idea that rests on shaky foundations.

What about the millions of people who helped him?

Or the millions of people who stood and watched?


I've only seen a short clip of the BB incident on C4 news and it seems that the girl was not malicious in her intentions. She did however offend. Did she deserve to be chucked out? I don't know, I don't care.

Your arguments seem to come to the natural conclusion that it is ok for anyone to say anything to anyone however offensive. Do you really believe this?

Like it or not language is extremely important in forming attitudes and perceptions of different people. It's very complicated and everyone has different ideas as to what is and what is not acceptable in different contexts. Many word have become taboo not just words with racist connotations but also words used to describe disabled people, religious groups and many other minority groups. Often it is little more than fashion that decides which words are acceptable which are not, but often there are very good reasons why certain words should not be used.

My point exactly. It is what's in your heart that should drive your behaviour, and render you worthy of punishment, not the current trends and fads of the day. If you don't mean to offend how can you be punished when offence is caused??

Fact: To move forward we need tolerance

Getting offended by each other left right and centre hardly makes this an achievable goal.

all having the same definitions for words makes it much easier to discuss it and understand each other. we're doing very well keeping this civil and discussing it calmly but it's been teetering on the edge a while and one misplaced 'definition' could send it over.


sorry, I think you're wrong on both counts. We're ALL mixed race. Charlie is English / British. what makes hre different to Emily is her skin pigmentation. Who do you think suffers most from racism in this country. A black Englishman or a white Australian? Or how about a 5th generation Indian family compared with a visiting White American family? It's most definitely connected to skin colour.

Bringing Hitler into it really doesn't help the debate but as well as being a lunatic he was also a world class Uber-racist.



again, not a direction I think we ought to be going down here.


You are either living in a box or are very lucky not to see active racism around you on a daily basis. Racists aren't the silent minority some people seem to be suggesting. In the absense of people from an ethnic group other than White European, White Brits can still thow some pretty unpleasant words.

I think this debate underlines how vastly complicated and emotive the subject of racism is and also makes it pretty obvious why Emily had to go.

Do you want to address the rest of my post are you just going to use one sentence to try and suggest that I agree with you?

Tolerance includes use of acceptable language towards each other.

If I run someone over in a car by accident, through negligence and inattention, should I be punished? Or should I be tolerated because I didn't mean it?

Agreed.


No, that doesn't follow on from the first part of your sentence at all.

The reason why there is debate as to whether Emily should have been kicked out or not is precisely because the issue is so complicated.

perhaps it doesn't directly follow that Emily should go BECAUSE the subject is complicated and emotive, I still think it's a straight red. You said earlier there was an eliment of "I believe this and I think you should too" that's not quite right in my case but I'll admit to "this is how I feel  and I'm suprised the support for the counter argument is being so strongly aired

Unless my ears were playing tricks on me the conversation went
Charlie, "I hope I'm not pregnant. My stomach is bloated."
Emily, "You're pushing it out you N*****." (everyone else seems to be starring it. should I?)

I'm failing to see the grey area in that. That's not acceptable to alot of people. after being hauled over the coals for not acting against the bullying in Celeb BB and editing out a great deal of Racist language, this time they've acted decisivey and shown the viewer the offending event. Seems they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Personally I'm happy with C4s decision.

lets get to the real issues.

Mrs Ace2m just put it to me, if you had to, would you rather do Ziggy or Carol? obviously a question for the fellas.

Cant see what all the fuss is about. She is a dizzy up her own arse rich bitch type who thought it was fine to use the word. She wasn't being offensive in my eyes and there was no malice in it- she is just too dumb to know any better. I have plenty rap music on my ipod and why is it ok for black people to sing about niggers and whores yet the moment a white person says it (in a non offensive even bantor type way) they are the devil incarnate. Mountain and molehill and C4/Endomol trying to make up for the shipla/jade afair thats all.

 Nothing was said about the women chasing the bloke round trying to rip his shorts off was it? Imagine if 8 blokes had chased a lone female round trying to remove her bikini bottoms- the gallows would already be out.

The problem I have with Emily's eviciton is the manner of it and the reasons behind it. I certainly think she should have received punishment (even eviction)  but dragging her out of bed at 3.30am and throwing her out there and then seemed to be excessive action by Endemol done mostly to cover their own backs. There didn't seem to be a lot of time taken to properly think things through.

You can imagine the phone conversation between the producer on duty and the series producer at home in bed.

*ring ring*

'Hello'

'Hi, it's Nathan at the studio. We have a situation. Emily called Charley a nigger'

'Throw her out, throw her out now. Are you throwing her out, do it now quick. Wash our hands of her immediately. I'll phone the sponsors now and tell them we've kicked her out.'

This is true - but - they're a commercial organisation, they have to act in a commercial manner.

It just highlights Emily's stupidity and naivity, she should have known that even anything borderline racist would be stamped down on hard. If that was too hard, it was in the Big Brother rules that they couldn't say anything that could be construed as offensive by the other housemates or by the viewing public. They might have been a bit melodramatic in their eviction but, hey, thats showbiz.

I remember thinking that excact same thing when i saw it

we don'tall think that's ok but that's a different issue.

This was niggling me so I had to find out.

It has been suggested that Nitty Gritty referred to the unimportant debris left at the bottom of slave ships after voyages - this was extended to include the slaves themselves.

However - their is no real evidence to support this, so I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that you can carry on using the phrase 'nitty gritty' without being racist.

That was a summary - this article gives a more thorough explanation: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/nitty-gritty.html (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/nitty-gritty.html)

Edit: interesting - best not use the term 'denigrate' though - http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/member.html?ed20020609a1.htm (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/member.html?ed20020609a1.htm)

More importantly:

              aren't the twins just unbelievably cute :)

I've had ideas about who I liked or not, but I'm coming around to the conclusion that the twins may well be the least irritating of all of them.

guy at work was/is going out with one of the twins and he got offered 8k but the ex of the other twin did a 20k deal so he's holding out...

Now that is some statement!

i felt tonight that one of the twins was getting peed off with her sister always jumping in when she was trying to say something

cant say which as i still cant work out who is who even when they are called by names

no way the twins can win though they will split each others votes and no one can work out which one to vote for

I've got the twins in a last longerg bet against Carol. close one that.

Are they running one contestant?

They've sent another nutter in.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4080192.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4080192.stm)

I am the only one who hates that new geezer with the long hair.  Where do they get these people?   

lol that new geezer seany is a friend of my sisters.  They all new he was going in the bb house though when he disappeared 6 weeks ago and when his friends phoned his mother she said he was away on holiday.  But didnt seem to tell any of his friends of this holiday.  lol

6 weeks before!!!  OMG  so in theory they're held captured for months and months, poor buggers
Don't know how anybody could live in that house without going mad

Very clever by Channel 4,being a cynic you could say that the celeb show was dying on its feet until the racism stuff kicked off towards the end, so this time they are leaving nothing to chance and are making sure that they get the rascist controversy in early to maximise their veiwing figures........i wonder how many similar incidents happened in previous shows that didnt make the screen until ch 4 discovered how easy it was to get viewers?

Another great thread.
The lady who dropped the 'n' word, I feel for her.

I don't think she's a racist, but she has been incredibly foolish/naive. To clear her name of the former, she has to admit to the latter.

From what I understand of her personality, she is the type who recently aced her A level English, and thinks this makes her the dog's bollox.
(The type of person who thinks it's big and clever to use the words former and latter perhaps?)

My point is, intellectual vanity seems to be just as important to her as regular vanity. Admitting that she might have acted unitelligently may be almost as damaging to her psyche as having the media brand her a hater.

I'm assuming everyone in her life has told her how clever she is. She goes onto the grand stage of big brother, and expects the nation to think the same. She ends up being remembered only for doing something daft, it must be tough. :(

She clearly liked Charlie, was impressed by her and tried to connect on some kind of street level (marginally stereotyping the chav Charlie).  She was not separating herself from her on the basis of race or colour - how anyone could see her remarks as racist or offensive surprises me, maybe cause I'm white. For a white person to genunely feel offended I think they need to be going through a 'Deathofdianaempathocryalot' moment.

I can completely see how an older black person, who will have genuinely experienced, touched & felt overt racism for a good part of their lives in this country could easily be offended by just the word, irrespective of context.

I was at a wedding last week, in Hendon, got talking to the, maybe 70 year old, father of the bride. Seeking common ground I mentioned I used to live in Burnt Oak in the late 70's.  Burnt Oak is quite a rough part of London, Graham Park estate back in the 70s was a very white, very rough, kinda brutal place - very chavvy in today's terms.

I asked him how he preferred life in Northampton where he now lived. I've never spent any time in Northampton but I expected stock replies along the lines that it was a bit more genteel, less rough, more peaceful than Burnt Oak. Instead he mentioned that he'd been to Burnt Oak earlier in the day and it confirmed that he got out in the nick of time before the place had become completely overrun by - we'll use the term foreigners of colour. It was quite vitriolic. This to me is an example of the true latent racism that is a problem - and it aint just generational - it gets passed down, though I think it is fair to say it is becoming watered down with time.

What do you say in these circumstances ?

I muttered something pathetic along the lines of not quite seeing things that way but didn't challenge, exchanged a pleasantry and moved on.

It was his Daughter's wedding, she is a friend so I think I did the right thing. It made me feel bad though and I guess I'm writing to get it off my chest. Also to see how other people handle situations like this - ie challenge/try to educate without sounding like a big pompous over PC ass ?

tricky isn't it. In any other situation than his daughters wedding I'd have to challenge it in someway.

the fellas at work I mentioned give me a similar problem. In most experiences I've had with overtly racist people in my life, I've found them to be thoroughly unpleasant in general. It's only recently that I've found people who can be otherwise funny, intelligent, generally kind people who then suprisingly show a strong dislike for another racial group.

Challenging people on Racism will inevitably put a barrier up between you and them. Difficult when you work in a confined space with them. Personally I always try and challenge it even if I try and do it in a 'humourous way' If someone says something about another ethnic group I'll say something like "if you say so Adolf" Or I'll say something like "send 'em home" which they know I'm saying ironically.  I think it makes it clear I disagree with what they've said but in a way that doesn't start an argument.

The message I have been trying to get across is....how can you have a society based around equality when you judge certain types of "offence" as more serous than others? This is inbalance not equality. Calling someone a "nigger" and calling someone a "fat bitch" is the same in my eyes. You are bullying someone else by targeting a charcateristic of that person. I don't agree that certain characteristics deserve special consideration in the offence stakes. If you are being nasty to someone you are being nasty...period. It has to be easier to move towards a genuinely equal society if you judge that causing hurt is as relevant and serious no matter who the victim is. Remember...we are not talking about racism here we are talking about "offence".

AdamM. You make some interesting points and are clearly passionate about this subject. In answer to the questions you pose...



Racism is a deeply complex subject. If we all take our definition of this issue from a few lines in the English Dictionary then we are doing a dis-service to it's complexity. Does racism really hold the same definition for all of us? To think that it does will mean that we will never actually understand each other as you suggest.



Who do I think suffers most? Anybody who is subjected to racism suffers equally in my book. I think anybody who starts seeing "colour" as a factor will struggle to find an answer to the ignorance of persecution. People are bullied because they are different. Skin colour just make those differences more immediately obvious. Again, to suggest that there is a difference represents inequality.


Avoiding debate about sensitive issues will always prevent progress towards a solution


I live in Birmingham, a thoroughly multi-cultural city. My work and social circles include a wide range of races. This is the norm for the next generation. This is why I don't think it's appropriate for others to come down hard on an 18 year-old girl who hasn't the faintest idea what you're talking about. She doesn't see the colour in her friend Charley until the pc brigade ram it down her throat. How ironic.

anyone see "Britain's got talent" last night or it could of been the follow up show "Britain's got more talent" had it on in the background and which big brother wannabe superstar was on there saying they wanted to be a "TV presenter" "TV personality" preforming in front of the queen at the royal variety show none other than this years first evictee (tomorrow night) who after 2 days was hoping to get kicked out so she could now reap the rewards of her hard work and get the fame she so desired
little does she know that as a female in the BB house the only fame she will get is getting her kit off for the readers of ZOO or NUTS

I don't see how these can be equated. The first is a judgement made on the basis of skin tone, which has no bearing whatsoever on a person's character, the other is a comment on someones lifestyle/personality which does have some relation to their character. While they are both incredibly unpleasant they indicate very different things about the person uttering them. (and I doubt there will ever be mass genocide or slavery of people based on their weight.)

a collective sigh of relief is heard from the mods room