Big Brother 8

[wader leg]

The Hurt Feelings Brigade have a multi million pound empire to sustain,
The ones with hurt feelings will be writing columns in papers and doing interviews on tv, all for a tidy sum no doubt.
It makes business sense to keep the sins of the past in the public eye and deem certain words to be grossly offensive so that when someone falls short of what they see as acceptable they can start raking it in.

[Moskvich]

This attitude really bothers me.

I am not being critical about Adam's views here and indeed recognise them to be indicitive of mainstream opinion. But, for me, this thought process is in part responsible for the pc-obsessed world we now live in. I was born in 1973. I have absolutely no apologies to make for the historical sins of the British Empire. When I interact with different races I do so on an equal footing.

Let's say you are the boss of a company and are currently interviewing for a position in your business. You decide that a black applicant is the best qualified for the job but you deny him this opportunity because you prefer whites. This is racism and it is quite rightly a crime.

In the BB House Emily has gravitated towards Charley and they have become mates without predjudice and as equals. This is racial integration....Isn't this the ultimate goal of the pc brigade? Emily, I would imagine, has little knowledge of, or indeed interest in, the history of the Empire. She's living in the today....and quite rightly so! Her comment was clearly not because as a "white" she felt she was the superior human being!!! I mean will everyone just stop, take a deep breath, and take a look at what is happening to the world.

We think that if you say a WORD, a certain dreaded word, you should be immediately and severely punished.

How ridiculous.

The person who declares "...you are a stupid fat bitch..." with the malice and motivation to cause hurt is quite clearly guilty of a greater moral crime. Emily is ignorant to historic race issues and treats her new friend as her equal or perhaps even someone she wants to impress. And as such it is wholly irresponsible for the producers to sling accusations of racial abuse at this girl. It is what you think that matters.

This girl is living in modern day Britain. And in today's world she is freely mixing with lots of different races in her, no-doubt, multi-cultural community. Much older, historically-minded dinosaurs shoving hundreds of years of black oppression down an 18 year-olds throat with this gross over-reaction is surely not the best way to tackle genuine racial discrimination in this country.

Great post, in my opinion. She used an extremely emotive word naively, but didn't, from what I understand, use it hatefully. That is (should be) a far lesser crime than the attitude from Celebrity BB, where less obviously "controversial" language was used with far more malicious and nastier intent.

The meanings and nuances of words change constantly. "Nigger" didn't used to be so widely considered such a taboo word (and its equivalents from the same derivation in other languages sometimes still aren't). It became a taboo word because of a change in attitudes, and it's probably now starting (admittedly only just starting, and only in some communities/cultures) to lose its taboo as attitudes change again. The same goes for "Paki", which I sometimes hear Pakistanis say to each other. The fact that both words remain highly sensitive isn't in doubt, but I don't think that they are necessarily always indicative any more of racial prejudice, and it seems to me that there is only the slimmest of cases here for accusing Emily of that.

[dik9]

To be fair I don't think they'd have slung her out for that but it's not quite the same thing either. a one on one personal insults is one thing but racially abusive language has hundreds of years of weight to it that make it a bigger issue I think. If Charlie had used the same language my guess is it would have resulted in her going too.

This attitude really bothers me.

I am not being critical about Adam's views here and indeed recognise them to be indicitive of mainstream opinion. But, for me, this thought process is in part responsible for the pc-obsessed world we now live in. I was born in 1973. I have absolutely no apologies to make for the historical sins of the British Empire. When I interact with different races I do so on an equal footing.

Let's say you are the boss of a company and are currently interviewing for a position in your business. You decide that a black applicant is the best qualified for the job but you deny him this opportunity because you prefer whites. This is racism and it is quite rightly a crime.

In the BB House Emily has gravitated towards Charley and they have become mates without predjudice and as equals. This is racial integration....Isn't this the ultimate goal of the pc brigade? Emily, I would imagine, has little knowledge of, or indeed interest in, the history of the Empire. She's living in the today....and quite rightly so! Her comment was clearly not because as a "white" she felt she was the superior human being!!! I mean will everyone just stop, take a deep breath, and take a look at what is happening to the world.

We think that if you say a WORD, a certain dreaded word, you should be immediately and severely punished.

How ridiculous.

The person who declares "...you are a stupid fat bitch..." with the malice and motivation to cause hurt is quite clearly guilty of a greater moral crime. Emily is ignorant to historic race issues and treats her new friend as her equal or perhaps even someone she wants to impress. And as such it is wholly irresponsible for the producers to sling accusations of racial abuse at this girl. It is what you think that matters.

This girl is living in modern day Britain. And in today's world she is freely mixing with lots of different races in her, no-doubt, multi-cultural community. Much older, historically-minded dinosaurs shoving hundreds of years of black oppression down an 18 year-olds throat with this gross over-reaction is surely not the best way to tackle genuine racial discrimination in this country.

Great Post!!

As a matter of interest do you think Channel 4 would have kicked Charlie out as well if she retorted the comment by calling her a Honky? Me thinks not.

[AdamM]

To be fair I don't think they'd have slung her out for that but it's not quite the same thing either. a one on one personal insults is one thing but racially abusive language has hundreds of years of weight to it that make it a bigger issue I think. If Charlie had used the same language my guess is it would have resulted in her going too.

This attitude really bothers me.

I am not being critical about Adam's views here and indeed recognise them to be indicitive of mainstream opinion. But, for me, this thought process is in part responsible for the pc-obsessed world we now live in. I was born in 1973. I have absolutely no apologies to make for the historical sins of the British Empire. When I interact with different races I do so on an equal footing.

Let's say you are the boss of a company and are currently interviewing for a position in your business. You decide that a black applicant is the best qualified for the job but you deny him this opportunity because you prefer whites. This is racism and it is quite rightly a crime.

In the BB House Emily has gravitated towards Charley and they have become mates without predjudice and as equals. This is racial integration....Isn't this the ultimate goal of the pc brigade? Emily, I would imagine, has little knowledge of, or indeed interest in, the history of the Empire. She's living in the today....and quite rightly so! Her comment was clearly not because as a "white" she felt she was the superior human being!!! I mean will everyone just stop, take a deep breath, and take a look at what is happening to the world.

We think that if you say a WORD, a certain dreaded word, you should be immediately and severely punished.

How ridiculous.

The person who declares "...you are a stupid fat bitch..." with the malice and motivation to cause hurt is quite clearly guilty of a greater moral crime. Emily is ignorant to historic race issues and treats her new friend as her equal or perhaps even someone she wants to impress. And as such it is wholly irresponsible for the producers to sling accusations of racial abuse at this girl. It is what you think that matters.

This girl is living in modern day Britain. And in today's world she is freely mixing with lots of different races in her, no-doubt, multi-cultural community. Much older, historically-minded dinosaurs shoving hundreds of years of black oppression down an 18 year-olds throat with this gross over-reaction is surely not the best way to tackle genuine racial discrimination in this country.

It is a good post and I agree with most of it.
However, I doubt many people have been strung up for being a stupid fat bitch.
to the guys I mentioned in my earlier post, all black people are "niggers" all sub-continent asian people are "pakis" and all east asian people are "chinks" surely it's not pc-obsessed to think this sort of language is unacceptable.

IMO the way Emily used it was offensive and she had to go

[AndrewT]

Partly what grates with me throughout all of this is the fact that it seems to be mostly white people (the decision makers are overwhelmingly white) who are deciding that they are offended on behalf of black people. Lefty-liberal hand-wringing at its worst.

Discussions on the radio last night involved input from schoolteachers and those involved in community work with white and black teenagers and they said that, in areas of high racial diversity (where black cultural movements such as rap and hip-hop have huge influence) this is exactly how people talk to each other - white and black. For these kids 'nigger' began as a term of kinship between the black kids and was picked up and used in the same spirit by the white kids they hung out with.

They truly are 'colour-blind' and view each other not as separate because of their skin colour, but as the same because of where they grew up - they are one community.

It is laughable to think that, almost inadvertantly, these kids have achieved the true goal of racial integration, yet now they are seeing on the TV the message 'There are words that only people of one colour can say - white and black are different from each other'.

I still think Emily was kicked out purely so that the white people at the heads of Endemol and Channel 4 are able to look people like Trevor Phillips in the eye down at the Groucho club.

'Trevor, did you see us make an example of that white girl who said nigger? Let's forget that whole Shilpa/Jade thing now'.

[Acidmouse]

I think people are forgeting they were told NUMEROUS times to be very careful of the language they used in the house, especially words that could be considered of a racist nature.

She simply had to go as CH4 have to be seen to be whiter than white (excuse the pun)  after the shenanigans of Celebrity Big Brother.

Did she mean it as an offensive term? No

Was she stupid and naive? Yes

Will this be forgetten tomorrow? Hell Yes.

[Claw75]

I think people are forgeting they were told NUMEROUS times to be very careful of the language they used in the house, especially words that could be considered of a racist nature.

She simply had to go as CH4 have to be seen to be whiter than white (excuse the pun)  after the shenanigans of Celebrity Big Brother.

Did she mean it as an offensive term? No

Was she stupid and naive? Yes

Will this be forgetten tomorrow? Hell Yes.

 

I think if it wasn't for the shennanigans on celeb bb she'd have got a telling off and told not to do it again.  Channel 4 would have been in for a hell of a lot of stick if they'd let this pass. 

[MANTIS01]

An interesting debate for sure.

Posted by: AdamM:
It is a good post and I agree with most of it.

However, I doubt many people have been strung up for being a stupid fat bitch.
to the guys I mentioned in my earlier post, all black people are "niggers" all sub-continent asian people are "pakis" and all east asian people are "chinks" surely it's not pc-obsessed to think this sort of language is unacceptable.

IMO the way Emily used it was offensive and she had to go

It concerns me when we talk about the "interpretation" of words though. Why should you have the right to impose your associations and interpretations onto someone else? If Emily's intentions are wholesome and she uses a certain word with the aim of cementing ties with her new-found black friend, who has the right to scream racial abuse? Why should Emily have to accept somebody else's views?

Emily is not growing up in 60's Britain. She is in 21st century Britain, mixing with an array of nationalities and enjoying black music. It is just not appropriate, and clearly contradictory, for someone from a different generation and a different mindset to accuse her of racial stigmatism.

I read an article in the newspaper the other day which stated that a white footballer had been severely reprimanded by FIFA for calling a black footballer a "monkey" during a game. This really bothers me. I mean, to issue punishment is to give weight and credence to that comment. Is punishment forthcoming if the same footballer is accused of being a giraffe?....No!....So why then with the monkey comment? By not criticising the giraffe comment but then making a big deal out of the monkey jibe you reveal your own small-minded stereotypecasting in my book. To any sane, normal person the white footballer who made the comment (if he actually believed it) is closer to the ape-world than he may realise. In reality though he was probably trying to put a player he respected off his game. Black people are rightly proud of their heritage and colour and they don't need protection from such trivial nonsense.

Tackling deep-seated racism is no doubt a complex issue and a real challenge for any society. But surely education, debate and integration are the ways forward? If those in power think that knee-jerk over-reactionary punishment for the utterance of a word is the answer to the problem then God help us all.

[AdamM]

Firstly, why do you have to be Black to be offended by the word Nigger? Why do you have to be Indian or Bangladeshi to be offended by Paki? I find it offensive and so do many many others. Most of us think no less of someone because of the colour of their skin but those that do have their own broad vocabulary that isn't acceptable to the majority of decent people of all colours and creeds.

I would think it was obvious that calling a black man a monkey is offensive. the suggestion that black people are further down the evolutionary ladder than white people is pretty unpleasant (and clearly untrue to anyone with half a brain). Giraffe? no ones ever been strung up for being tall. throwing apples onto a football pitch would be surreal and random but throwing bananas onto a football pitch is clearly meant to hurt.

I will reitterate I hope Emily isn't thrown to the wolves over this. she's made a careless remark but it's surely pretty obvious why were always going to be zero tollerance on the matter. Lots of stuff was left out of the celeb BB and they got lots of stick for that too. that's why they also HAD to show the comment.

Racism is still a big problem in the UK, in areas that have a broad cultural mix and those that don't. I think tackling the words used has to play a big part in tackling that racism.

[tantrum]

Firstly, why do you have to be Black to be offended by the word Nigger? Why do you have to be Indian or Bangladeshi to be offended by Paki? I find it offensive and so do many many others. Most of us think no less of someone because of the colour of their skin but those that do have their own broad vocabulary that isn't acceptable to the majority of decent people of all colours and creeds.

I would think it was obvious that calling a black man a monkey is offensive. the suggestion that black people are further down the evolutionary ladder than white people is pretty unpleasant (and clearly untrue to anyone with half a brain). Giraffe? no ones ever been strung up for being tall. throwing apples onto a football pitch would be surreal and random but throwing bananas onto a football pitch is clearly meant to hurt.

I will reitterate I hope Emily isn't thrown to the wolves over this. she's made a careless remark but it's surely pretty obvious why were always going to be zero tollerance on the matter. Lots of stuff was left out of the celeb BB and they got lots of stick for that too. that's why they also HAD to show the comment.

Racism is still a big problem in the UK, in areas that have a broad cultural mix and those that don't. I think tackling the words used has to play a big part in tackling that racism.

Was writing long reply but AdamM beat me to it:)

excellent post


i will just repeat what Adam said, this sums up the whole discussion here:

tackling the words used has to play a big part in tackling that racism

 

[Rod Paradise]

In the end Emily didn't say it to a friend, she said it to an aquaintance who didn't know her well enough to be sure there was nothing bad meant by it. The fact that Charlie kept going over it and was obviously confused and upset meant the use was effectively offensive. Just because Charlie tried to play it down and give her the benefit of the doubt says nothing to defend Emily & a lot for Charlie (who I'd have thought would have had a real go as she's a wee bit argumentitive).

Is she a racist? Don't know, although other stories of racist abuse are appearing in the press. BB had no option but to chuck her out though.

The argument that she hangs around with black people/black music as a defence won't fly in my estimation, I grew up in a mainly black country, and I am good friends with black, white, asian & arab people, I'd NEVER use some of their own insult words for themselves back to them, they've got to live with them, and if using them makes the word less powerful to them, good luck, but they've the right to do that, I don't.

As for white footballers calling black players monkeys - they deserve done. The time to allow a bit of leeway for ignorance is gone.

[The_nun]

In the end Emily didn't say it to a friend, she said it to an aquaintance who didn't know her well enough to be sure there was nothing bad meant by it. The fact that Charlie kept going over it and was obviously confused and upset meant the use was effectively offensive. Just because Charlie tried to play it down and give her the benefit of the doubt says nothing to defend Emily & a lot for Charlie (who I'd have thought would have had a real go as she's a wee bit argumentitive).

Is she a racist? Don't know, although other stories of racist abuse are appearing in the press. BB had no option but to chuck her out though.

The argument that she hangs around with black people/black music as a defence won't fly in my estimation, I grew up in a mainly black country, and I am good friends with black, white, asian & arab people, I'd NEVER use some of their own insult words for themselves back to them, they've got to live with them, and if using them makes the word less powerful to them, good luck, but they've the right to do that, I don't.

As for white footballers calling black players monkeys - they deserve done. The time to allow a bit of leeway for ignorance is gone.

I get called a muppet quite a lot recently...

[Rod Paradise]

I get called a muppet quite a lot recently...

Funny enough that was a term of endearment to my ex - always made her laugh. I've never heard muppet used with racist conotations though.

[The_nun]

No Rod you are right....I think it is Pokercist related..

[AndrewT]

Here's a simple guide for white folks on the use of the word.

http://www.glumbert.com/media/nword