blonde poker forum

moral viewpoints cool as well. My understanding was that after the hand you have a quiet word and let him know he's showing his cards, but you can bust him out here maybe. If you say something, there is still a person to act, he may have AA.

I'm thinking the right thing to do is fold but that just seems wrong :) I didn't ask him to show his bloody cards, it's his job to protect them, but but but...

If the player had looked at his cards and somehow given away that he had QQ, but without you seeing, then you wouldn't fold your cards - would you?

Would anyone be tempted to push all in and if the BB folds tell the guy in the button you've seen his cards and you are ahead, advise him to fold so he doesn't lose all his chips and tell him you'll show when he folds?

I take you mean from an +ev standpoint and not a moral standpoint.

1. We are 80/20 fave preflop and we can assume he calls your shove pretty close to 100% of the time. Lets say 98%. Our equity is therefore just below 80%. I think this is better than seeing flop and (a) Him flopping a q or (b) getting a board that is bad with an ace or king on (more than 80% chance of this happening)

Would anyones opinion change if they looked down and saw that you had J 5o  ?

moral viewpoints cool as well. My understanding was that after the hand you have a quiet word and let him know he's showing his cards, but you can bust him out here maybe. If you say something, there is still a person to act, he may have AA.

I'm thinking the right thing to do is fold but that just seems wrong :) I didn't ask him to show his bloody cards, it's his job to protect them, but but but...

I'd inform the dealer/tournament director that the player had inadvertently shown their cards and let them make the decision. There have been times where I've take this route and it has been ungratefully received with people somehow accusing me of cheating.

what was the decision that they made?

You're at the FT of the WSOP with 4 BBs in the BB. It's folded round to the SB who accidently shows you KK. He pushes AI for 4 BBs. You have AA. If you call and win you jump $1 million in prize money. It seems totally wrong that there should be any possibility of you having to fold now.

a) Tell him
b) Tell him


If for some reason you didnt want too,

a) Standard re-raise
b) Call, you'll know exactly where you stand

And I think that you should just call both raises assuming you have a 20BB stack.

In many games/sports the number 1 rule is that "The game shall be played in a sporting manner". I believe that if i were to go on and win the pot/tournament without saying something to the dealer or an official at the time of the incident, then the pot/tournament would be greatly devalued ie. the win would be worthless if it left me feeling like i was a cheat. I would let the official/dealer make the final decision, either way win or lose my morals are in tact.

In my opinion this is similar to snooker players calling fouls on them selves when they accidentally touch the cue ball with the tip of there cue before playing a shot. Maybe we should be playing poker with the same level of honesty/integrity?

In many games/sports the number 1 rule is that "The game shall be played in a sporting manner". I believe that if i were to go on and win the pot/tournament without saying something to the dealer or an official at the time of the incident, then the pot/tournament would be greatly devalued ie. the win would be worthless if it left me feeling like i was a cheat. I would let the official/dealer make the final decision, either way win or lose my morals are in tact.

In my opinion this is similar to snooker players calling fouls on them selves when they accidentally touch the cue ball with the tip of there cue before playing a shot. Maybe we should be playing poker with the same level of honesty/integrity?

Really?

In both cases i don't think the stacks are deep enough in either case to gather a big enough advantage by playing perfectly postflop.

I play hard and fair....but this is a dog eat dog game. Poker players excell when they feed on the weaknesses of other players. If you have a problem jumping all over somebody's failings then I really don't think you have the right mentality for the game. "Let's not raise the little old lady because she can't see all that well"...."Let's not hammer the shortstack because we feel sorry for him"

If a player is leaking information by exposing their cards then more fool them. They better learn to sharpen up a bit if they want to do well in the game. There isn't a wellfare system in poker so simply put the weak get crushed. Helping your opponents to play better against you during a tournament is quite ridiculous. In fact the whole table should stand up, join hands and sing Kum Ba Yah My Lord if we are going to go down this road.

Players used to expose their cards on purpose to try and help them make a decision.

If you had a solid tell on someone would you let them know? "Excuse me sir, every time you're strong you scratch your nose"....don't be ridiculous. The "spirit" of poker is not upheld if you help the weak!

You and i obviously view this situation very differently, i have no problem in capitalising on another players mistakes, which is after all an integral part of all successful poker players games. What i do have a problem with is the win at all cost attitude, i play the game for enjoyment, its a nice way to make some money but i dont ever want to win by cheating.

You maybe don't view this as cheating, where as i do and i would get no satisfaction or sence of achievement by winning in this manner.

I mean, really - would you feel that you were cheating if you knew a rock solid physical or betting tell? Because it's the same thing.

Also, I'm not sure that this falls under a technical definition of "cheating". It is obviously unethical for someone to purposely show you their cards; to mark cards; signal etc - i.e. team play or collusion of any sort.

But I do not believe there is a rule against you watching a player for tells and other information - and their inabillity to protect their hand. This particular scenario seems to be no different to a player being a huge tellbox and lacking all semblence of body control.

I mean, really - would you feel that you were cheating if you knew a rock solid physical or betting tell? Because it's the same thing.

a couple of the responses in this thread are truly lol funny. our opponent has made a mistake, not us so why do we now want to disadvantage ourselves. let's try another couple of examples.

-we're sat in the BB with 83o, it passes to the button who throws in a big chip meaning to raise but doesn't announce it so it goes as a call. which of the following actions do we take? a) check our option and take a flop hoping to hit or b) say that as the button obviously made a mistake we'll pass as that's what we would've done if his raise stood

-we see the river 3 handed and have the 2nd nuts. player a makes a bet which we fully intend to call, player b now mucks at which point player a turns his cards face up to reveal the nuts not realising we still have cards. do we a) thank our lucky stars and muck or b) call because that's what we were going to do and it wouldn't be fair to take advantage of our oppos mistake.

I'm assuming we all answer a) to both as we're not stupid. if our opponents make mistakes then we adapt to the new information, we don't make ourselves suffer because of them, it's not our mistake.

No opponent will see my hole cards no matter how hard they try and them trying to catch a glimpse would not offend me in the slightest. He is there to screw me very hard in the arse and I am there to do it harder, better, quicker and first.

Are the ruthless players here just as ruthless when it comes to string betting?

So what do you do if your the snooker player as mentioned in my earlier post and it's the deciding frame of the world championship 100k 1st prize 50k second, do you call the foul on yourself like 99.9% of pro snooker players or do you cheat and take the win at all costs attitude?

Are the ruthless players here just as ruthless when it comes to string betting?

a couple of the responses in this thread are truly lol funny. our opponent has made a mistake, not us so why do we now want to disadvantage ourselves. let's try another couple of examples.

-we're sat in the BB with 83o, it passes to the button who throws in a big chip meaning to raise but doesn't announce it so it goes as a call. which of the following actions do we take? a) check our option and take a flop hoping to hit or b) say that as the button obviously made a mistake we'll pass as that's what we would've done if his raise stood

-we see the river 3 handed and have the 2nd nuts. player a makes a bet which we fully intend to call, player b now mucks at which point player a turns his cards face up to reveal the nuts not realising we still have cards. do we a) thank our lucky stars and muck or b) call because that's what we were going to do and it wouldn't be fair to take advantage of our oppos mistake.

I'm assuming we all answer a) to both as we're not stupid. if our opponents make mistakes then we adapt to the new information, we don't make ourselves suffer because of them, it's not our mistake.

So what do you do if your the snooker player as mentioned in my earlier post and it's the deciding frame of the world championship 100k 1st prize 50k second, do you call the foul on yourself like 99.9% of pro snooker players or do you cheat and take the win at all costs attitude?

In snooker if you foul it is the referee's job to call it so by "cheating" in your example you are gaining from the referee's mistake, not your opponent's. The equivalent in poker is when a dealer flashes an opponents card as he is dealing, and I think you'll find that a lot of players who would exploit the QQ guy would point out the dealer's mistake.

cheating is cheating in my books

i play poker for fun

when i stop having fun and start cheating because i have to win is the say i stop playing poker and look for another hobby

I would suggest that the time to find a new hobby is already upon you.

So what do you do if your the snooker player as mentioned in my earlier post and it's the deciding frame of the world championship 100k 1st prize 50k second, do you call the foul on yourself like 99.9% of pro snooker players or do you cheat and take the win at all costs attitude?

this thread is talking about mistakes made by others and in the example we would in no way be breaking the rules.

In snooker if you foul it is the referee's job to call it so by "cheating" in your example you are gaining from the referee's mistake, not your opponent's. The equivalent in poker is when a dealer flashes an opponents card as he is dealing, and I think you'll find that a lot of players who would exploit the QQ guy would point out the dealer's mistake.

I would declare a foul.

What would you do if you put your opponent in a snooker, he made a genuine attempt to get out of it, and the ref called a miss? Would you put your opponent back at the table if it was advantageous to do so?

Yes everytime because that is the referee's decision not mine.

on wednessday at the FT of a live game in the international the first hand the guy on my right in seat 3 picks up his cards too his chest exposing them to me as i am sat so far back from table

as i had already seen my cards in teh BB and had no intention of playing them and his cards were also going in the muck

i waited till after the hand was finished and asked him to be more carefull in future

after that if he had continued to show his cards i wouldnt have known what to do

but the whole table and the cardroom staff all knew i had pointed out the problem

I would and have done so before exactly the same thing, if he continues i would continue to tell him or look away, i wanted to put one of those good post thingy's up, where do i get them from?

It is your decision to put your opponent back to the table though...and YOU believe he made a genuine attempt to get out of the snooker. So do you take advantage of the refs decision or do you ethically go ahead and take your shot?

yeah you never told me you could see my cards in dt (http://www.dtdpoker.com/aff/BlonditesDownload)d (http://www.dtdpoker.com/aff/BlonditesDownload) when you robbed me blind though ;D

yeah great steve if i could sort my game out

will be down dt (http://www.dtdpoker.com/aff/BlonditesDownload)d (http://www.dtdpoker.com/aff/BlonditesDownload) this weekend see if i can play a little better

I still make him go again because in no way am i cheating in my opinion by doing so.

I agree, you are operating within the rules in order to give your opponent the best chance of loosing. While your own opinion may be that the "miss" call was unfair you still put your personal ideals aside at the table in order to play the game as hard as you can. One thing you wouldn't do is interupt your oponent mid-shot and give him advice about how best he can get out of the snooker. No different to seeing your opponents hole cards.

Which rules would those be then?

In many games/sports the number 1 rule is that "The game shall be played in a sporting manner". I believe that if i were to go on and win the pot/tournament without saying something to the dealer or an official at the time of the incident, then the pot/tournament would be greatly devalued ie. the win would be worthless if it left me feeling like i was a cheat. I would let the official/dealer make the final decision, either way win or lose my morals are in tact.

In my opinion this is similar to snooker players calling fouls on them selves when they accidentally touch the cue ball with the tip of there cue before playing a shot. Maybe we should be playing poker with the same level of honesty/integrity?

Comparing poker to snooker is a joke imo. Poker is a game where you are allowed to use EVERY edge you can get, almost regardless.

the rules of poker ldo

How can you cheat if you play within the rules of a game? I think use of the word "cheat" when applied to a personal opinion rather than a matter of fact is far from appropriate.

It is not my intension to suggest or imply that you or anyone else that disagrees with my comments are cheats, however my opinion is that i personally view this as cheating even if it is in the rules somewhere that it is not cheating to view another players hole cards.

I'm not even close to understanding your point here. How can accidently viewing someone's cards in any way be cheating?

Maybe because you have the responsibility to behave in a sporting way by not accidentally looking at your neighbours cards? I would have to say something because thats the sporting thing to do and although you want the upper hand,  saying nothing is not sporting. I would feel like a cheat too if I sat there knowing their cards and said nothing about it. Maybe it would be  laugh in a home game and one to share with the table but in any other game I would feel the responsibility to own up unless I was folding in which case I'd wait til the end of the hand before saying 'look mate, you fancy not flashing your cards to me in future' :)

Maybe because you have the responsibility to behave in a sporting way by not accidentally looking at your neighbours cards?
 

 ;frustrated;

how can I possibly have a responsibility to not do something accidentally?

pretty sure that if we ever get a standardised rule book that one won't be in it

My second sentance explained it. Say you see the cards by accident, it's not sporting to use that info. It's just not cricket!

I know what Mad is saying. To be clear, I don't WANT to see my oppo's cards. It would spoil the ethos of the game for me, and I certainly wouldn't be performing acrobatics to try and sneek a peek. But when it's his turn to act I will look at what he's doing....and if he exposes his cards I will undoubtedly see them. To be so careless at the table is idiotic and this guy needs to learn his lesson. I wouldn't say anything because his blundering would annoy me. He needs to be thrown into the deep end on this and take his medicine because swimming with sharks isn't recommended if you can't swim at all.

I think it's more sporting to bust his ass then tell him why! It will do him more good than breast-feeding him poker basics.

Next post "but this is poker not cricket"....LOL

but it just aint croquet

LOL, Most likely!! Some folk just can't help themselves:)

but it just aint croquet

Mad u fancy a game of snooker? i don't want to play with cheats......LOL

It is not my intension to suggest or imply that you or anyone else that disagrees with my comments are cheats

Steve - STOP DIGGING! ;)

really?

Told ya, some people just can't help themselves...LOL.
Well i suppose you either get it or you don't so i'm all done trying to explain myself any further.

Please refer to my previous post re explaining myself......again.

Like many things in sports, there are always grey areas that balance on the idea of sportsmanship. If there's nothing in the rules that says you have to announce that you have accidentally seen someone else's cards, then technically there's nothing wrong in you using that information to your advantage. It therefore comes down to the individual's ethics regarding poker and whether or not they are happy, morally, to take this advantage. Personally, I'm not happy to win in this manner and would prefer to declare that I have accidentally gained such an advantage.

I assume everyone on this thread was in favour of the Kanu goal against Sheffield then? I wasn't, but that's just me, and there's nothing in the rules that says you have to give the ball back.

Like many things in sports, there are always grey areas that balance on the idea of sportsmanship. If there's nothing in the rules that says you have to announce that you have accidentally seen someone else's cards, then technically there's nothing wrong in you using that information to your advantage. It therefore comes down to the individual's ethics regarding poker and whether or not they are happy, morally, to take this advantage. Personally, I'm not happy to win in this manner and would prefer to declare that I have accidentally gained such an advantage.

I assume everyone on this thread was in favour of the Kanu goal against Sheffield then? I wasn't, but that's just me, and there's nothing in the rules that says you have to give the ball back.

I assume everyone on this thread was in favour of the Kanu goal against Sheffield then? I wasn't, but that's just me, and there's nothing in the rules that says you have to give the ball back.

Arsenal have comfortable possession of the ball in midfield. The Arsenal midfielder glances up and casually passes the ball to one of his team mates. But wait....he's made the most basic of errors....he wasn't paying attention and has actually passed to the Sheff Utd. striker by mistake thinking it was a team mate. The striker races off towards the Arsenal goal...but en route he stops and picks the ball up and hands it back to Arsenal. "I know you didn't mean to do that, it was a mistake, and I wouldn't want to take advantage of that blunder. So here's the ball back, have another go son....I just don't feel right about it"