blonde poker forum

Speaking to Mickey (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=283) Wernick (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=283) on the sidelines, he was keen to pick the brains of the blonde poker audience and grab a few opinions on his exit hand.

So...

Blinds = 150/300

Mateyboy = 10k
Barny (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=41) Boatman (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=41) = 12k
Mickey (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=283) Wernick (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=283) = 15k

Mickey finds  Ac 9c in early position and raises to 700. Barny and Mateyboy both call.

Flop =  2c 9s  3c

Barny checks, Mickey makes it 1.2k and Mateyboy re-raises to 2.6k.

Barny re-re-raises to 6k, Mickey moves all-in, Mateyboy and Barny both call.

Barny =  9d 3d

Mateyboy =  2h 2d

The set of Deuces hold up.

"Ask them what they think of my play, Snoops. Should I have got away from it or was I right to push all-in?"

Over to you guys, all opinions appreciated, even Flushy's.

 pokerstove has micky 32%, barney 12% % mateyboy 56% I still push

Ok, tell us it then?

I'd also like to hear from some of the regular MTT players' views and opinions on this spot.

Yep insta push. should of raised more preflop or folded. he's new tho and he will learn.

once there has been a re-re-raise can't he pass? he must be losing and drawing to nine clubs only

Pass and have 13k left?

pass

I was watching a cardrunners video the other day and the player passed a similar spot as he said he had no fold equity.

Fold, Mickey's image is generally pretty solid, and yet there's been a suspiciously small raise from one player and Barny has then repopped it for half his stack you have to assume at least one has a set, Mickey has no fold equity, and is probably just playing for the flush. He still has about 13k though so he doesn't need to stack off imo. [pedantic]I make it 800 to play as well pre[/pedantic]

I was writing the same but you did it better.

I also think Barny should be leading out here, his hand is so beautifully disguised and Mickey isn't too likely to be firing at this dry-ish board without a hand vs two players and Barny can build a big pot here if he wants. Say Barny fires out 1.5k, Mickey makes it 5k which may get hands like TT and JJ to fold, Matey shoves, Barney shoves then Mickey probably has to call for value now. As it is, Barny gets coolered either way, though I think by leading, it's harder for Mickey to fold given that he basically gets priced in.

I raise more pre; and I would play for all the marbles postflop.

Micky probably does his own thing at this stage of his life so far be it for him to give a feck what I think. But maybe he might consider:

- What his preflop raise size would be with AKo or better // JJ or better?
- If he actually had raised preflop with JJ - AA what size his continuation bet would be on this sort of board?

I would wager that there would be variations in both cases and it would seem to me that it would be preferable if there weren't. But hey, what do I know.

------------

So, if I was playing the hand I would have had 900 in pre and c - bet big for like 2400 or something. Meaning it would be incorrect for me to fold at that point.

As played though I still get it in. It's 40BBs and he's only going to need 35% equity when all the loot goes in and he's going to have that against any reasonable ranges you assign to his opponents. I'd personally be delighted to get this sort of spot to play a huge pot and be getting my chips in with a fist pump to be honest.

 rotflmfao

have to agree with tighty here but what do i know?

slightly more than I do

I like Lloyd's post too though

I generally believe Loyd is correct IF Micky had done the right thing and raised more pre-flop. what was he doing raising it to 700? That 's a silly bet and it doesn't make any sense..noone will fold for that and you'll more than likely be out of position for the rest of the hand..and with a hand like A9 you'll definetly more than likely be behind.

That would of course have lead to all the chips going in because he would have had odds to call after he C-bets the flop.


As played I fold here faster than a folding thing from folding town. Only your flush is ever going to be live. You only invested 2k out of your stack here..swallow your pride and kick yourself for making a silly play pre-flop but a very easy fold.

we don't know enough, 700 might have been getting the job done for the rest of the time, the BB might be tight and straight forward. once he's played it that way he can fold easily when the action gets lively, he's behind, he knows he's behind and he gets the chips in.

I'd much rather be pushing here than calling, so I'd fold.  But I'm a nit.

As to the pre-flop bet.  Would a bet of 900 or 800 made any difference rather than his bet of 700?  Just interested to know the reasoning here.

2's still call, maybe Barney will fold... Borderline decision, I wouldnt blame anyone for pushing or folding...

Have to agree with boldie, even though he's a legend, A9 in ep is an instant fold for me.  Once its played out however its tough to get away from although its obvious 2pair or a set is out there so if the board pairs nut flush no good anyway.

from Barny on the update thread

"Is case anyone is pondering Micky's story I'll tell it as it was, so it makes sense:

I was on the bb with 13k, (blinds 150/300)  Mickey has min raised to 700 and one or two have called before me. I call the extra 400 with  9d 3d  .

On a flop of   9s 3c 2c I check, mickey bets 1,200  matey bets 4,200 and I pick up up my 1k chips and make it 11k to go.

Now Mickey shoves for 17k and Matey calls 11k all in. I call my last 2k for a  4k side pot with Micky.

To me, every play by all three of us was a no-brainer. I just wish Micky had made a bigger raise pre-flop!"

this makes micky's decison an insta fold for me, he is just gambling on hitting the flush with only 1900 from his 19k stack invested. To quote the man himself "better spot"

I don't mind the pre-flop raise.

Personally I always triple the bet when opening and rarely deviate from that....but making it smaller is ok.

Lloyd says....

Boldie says....

I think those two statements actually go together rather well. Mickey is making his bet a desirable one to call and his oppos will wonder why. Why doesn't Mickey want us to fold? His hand already looks much stronger than it is and a skilled post flop player is going to exploit that later in the hand. More often than not he is going to be able to take this pot against 9-3 & 2-2 or similar post-flop. I Don't think people should be looking too closely at the hand strength e.g. A-9 from EP...but rather the situation strength e.g. 700 from EP. So he's raising to PLAY a pot, not necessarily win one pre-flop, and he can do that now with the psychological advantage.

Post-flop I think his c-bet is a fantastically consistent one. It's smallish and begging for action...just like his pre-flop one was. He could be doing this with  6d  7d and it would look for all the world like he has A-A....and 9-3 & 2-2 just quietly go away. The problem is everyone hits and things get messy as a result. What would you do with A-A now?

The advantage of keeping things small ball is that you DON'T pot-commit yourself....and there is little point in giving yourself an escape hatch if you never use it. So all-in is going to be a pure luck-based gamble. Take it on? Depends on tournament position...maybe...probably...ALL-IN!! Shit I didn't have to do that.

so you fold for 17k more once the 4bet postflop from barney comes?

lol donkaments. But yeah, I think that with the shallow stacks involved - it's a cooler.

19k @ 150/300 aint exactly shallow. I think mickey made the stack sizes smaller in his chat with snoops because he knew he had made a mistake, and tried to make it look a fine play.

60 Bb's mate...plenty deep for me to fold with this action.

The real problem with this hand is the flop. Because it looks heaven-sent. You set out to represent a strong hand and you are surprised to actually flop one. And even though the action tells you you're toast you're already in love with it. It's like those adverts on the TV for "girls in your area" licking their mobile phones just waiting to flirt with you. The reality is probably a fat moose waiting to take your money. Just like this board.

On reading the hand thru last night I couldn't put Barney on 2 pair on that board given him calling a raise three handed but as he has been kind enough to post that there were in fact others in the pot it does make sense/more probable now. I cant see either of them having an over pair, they would re raise pre flop to find out how strong the opening raise was.


Originally I had to have Barney on at least a set here given I couldn't put him on 2 pair. Or.... would he re raise with a non nut club draw tho or maybe 4 5 clubs?

Either way, the info you now have is you are deffo behind,TPTK cannot be winning very often here given the action, the odds might give you a call to hit the flush but should Barney or the other guy have a two club hand you are maybe drawing light and already behind, I think I would pass. and take my still decent stack on to the next hand..

Is anyone passing bottom set last to act here by the way after the action has gone, bet , raise, re raise, re re raise?


All in all its a bloody intriguing hand of poker.

I never pass bottom set here..ever..well maybe if someone turns over top or middle set..but even then it's a toughy

Given that we were told that the guy had 10k I agree but Action Man and Barney have mentioned that the guys were a bit deeper than that.

Maybe I'm the tightest player on the planet but would anyone else consider folding pre flop?

Maybe in late position it's worth a raise or possibly early position if it's a six seater but otherwise I'm folding with the stacks and blinds as they are.

I never like these sort of hands early on in tournaments. They're nothing but trouble as far as my (very limited) experience goes. It doesn't seem to matter what you hit you just never know quite where you stand after the flop and are always going to get put to big decisions. I don't mind this later on but at this stage it's just not worth it.

After the flop I'm folding here with no hesitation at all. This hand is useless unless you've hit the nuts or it's cheap to carry on to see if you do.

Maybe that's why Mr Wernick has earned so much more out of poker than I ever will ;D

Anything less than 100BBs deep = shallow stacks. The blinds go up in these things you know.

Anyway, I'm not really sure the hand merits such deep analysis. Micky could have played it different in terms of betsizing - but everyone should be getting their money in on that flop. It's just a cooler as far as I'm concerned. But you nits can continue to debate on who should have folded what when. Enjoy.

I'd openfold A9o alright. But I think openraising A9s is perfectly acceptable.

 ::) can we? why thank you!

Hello Mr Pie :)up  Good to have you on-board!

I'm a nit too. 

 ::) Don't mention it. I'm sure it will be extremely beneficial for all those who take part.

So 99 big blinds is a shortstack is it? ;tightend;  thats my lesson of the day learnt then.

oh no...I'm not even considering raising OOP with this hand...I fold faster than a folding thing from nit town myself pre-flop.

You post read good.

The funny thing is, that Lloyd is generally nittier than most people posting on this thread. :D

Posted by: LuckyLloyd


A player of Mickey's ability has an edge over the field because he is a good decision maker. Pot-committing yourself to hands so you don't have the freedom to make good decisions is taking away your edge. If the hand was a cooler he wouldn't be asking for opinions.

I'd stick around LLoyd.

I am the rockiest of all the rocks. Tis true.

lol, he still got the money in though even though he had laid a less advantageous price for himself!!

To me the problem has arised with the size of the initial raise. Those size of raises are most often getting called in the blinds at that stage of comp given stack sizes with any sort of connectors.( by me anyway lol)
When the flop comes down ,well imo there isnt a lot going to happen apart from the chips going in as everyone has hit big time
 Like LLoyd said its a cooler.
I personally would find it hard to fold in that spot against the blinds with that given flop and my holding.

For some of those saying its an almost certain fold, what would you do in Mickeys situation post flop with AA? as they are a big dog compared to having A9 clubs on that board. Imo AA are a far easier fold given the action

One more thing......

Barney Boatman calling with 9 3!!! What's that all about? Must've been in the big blind but even so what can you possibly hit? If you hit you're probably not getting paid because no one else hits. If you miss you miss big and lose a few hundred chips. If you hit and someone else hits big enough to play along you're probably losing.......

I'm not knocking these plays because these guys are good players and probably better than I'll ever be but I just don't get what he hopes to achieve with 9 3?

Looks like I've got a lot to learn.

In my experience, most live players - even venerable pros with a string of results to their name - tend to defend from the blinds with far too loose a range.

My default would be to fold 93s here because you are going to be oop with 9 high, no draw most of the time and the stacks aren't deep enough to give you the neccesary implied odds to compensate for that fact. Despite the fact that the raise is to 700 and there has already been a caller.

But hey, I'm sure Barney will play his way. And who am I to argue.

Do you go out of a lot of tournaments pushing all in with 7BB and losing a 60-40?

lol Flushy. In fairness, he's not far off on the two points you quoted. 

Stop it - the Samaritans will never sponsor this forum if you keep this up!

noone else just muck this hand pre flop from early? lol

Oh dear and you were doing so well too. Thanks for giving the ok for people to discuss hand histories on the hand history board, tell me, do you drink in the early afternoon??

Do you ever post your thoughts on the hand anymore or do you just wait to disagree with someone or make barbed comments?

cmon mate, how do you see the hand?

Of course I do. Doesn't everybody??

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=20524.0

Have you read the thread above? It might be aimed at you...........

Nice that someone with 13000 posts is so encouraging to someone with 3. Thanks dude!!

;yellowcard;

PS. I've finished defending myself. No more thread jacking from me. I think this has gone a bit off topic.

stick with it EvilPie,when the moon isn't rising in Virgo we're mostly ok!

welcome to blonde

TBH lloyd has hit it, you are not loving it but you can't pass here. Fist-pump-shove-aments

Folding A9c here pre is good if you can't play flops, but if you can't play flops you should probably stick to scrabble.

Uncalled for.  :'( :'( :'(

Tighty, I think you should ban me from the HA board.

I don't think a ban is really needed, not at the moment anyway.

Thanks, did you speak to Mickey about the hand? Do you know what the correct stack sizes were as there seems to be some confusion over who had what in front of them.

You reckon?  You could always get your butler to play for you instead...

:dontask:

Loving your work Flushy.

oh and...


...ah that's that one sorted then

I couldn't think of anything more depressing than sitting in a room full of poker players for 3 days getting nipped every 5 minutes, so i stayed at home instead of playing the GPT. I feel much better for it!

As such i have not spoken to Mickey.....

lol thanks for the enlightenment, ill remember that the next time i bust from a comp playing a raggy ace from early position

So funny.....

If Mickey (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=283) Wernick (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=283) can get it wrong playing this hand after the flop then I think I'll stick to more more solid openings from early position. At least until I've got a bit more experience anyway  :)

Give us a chance dude, of course I can't play every flop perfectly yet, I've only been playing 6 months. But I'm learning fast so watch out, EvilPie's coming after you all........... (As long as he's dealt monster cards every time ;D)

And as far as I'm aware playing flops with mediocre hands is about convincing the other guys that you're stronger than them. This works out pretty badly when they've both got hands that they can't put down no matter what you do. Even Gus (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=564) Hansen (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=564), Phil (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=709) Ivey (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=709) etc. would have struggled with this one after the flop. I'll stick to the Dan (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=822) Harrington (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=822) theory that this is not a good enough opening hand and fold it. At least until I get to see evidence to the contrary.

749 QJ6 567 K74

These are all flops Mickey makes 1500 chips from......there are so many more.

It's very hard for Mickey to get stacked here.

LOL, this thread has moved from a good postflop discussion to whether A9s is ok to open from in ep.
WHY????!!!!??!!!!

Iv got an idea, lets all play like T.J + McEvoy and have really narrow e.p ranges that wont be at all exploitable and will make us a terror at the tables. A9s is fine this deep for christs sake.

As for the postflop situ, given how bad players are in these comps im pretty sure its a clear fold as you will find much more favourable investment opportunities. On a level playing field, of course we never pass this hand getting nearly the right price and a shot at a large stack.

dunno how it diverted from the post flop discussion, personally id rather open 56 off than a raggy ace frpm early, with that flop ur in a world of pain and all the chips are going in even if you know all you have is the flush draw, lost count of the hands ive seen tonight on the live updates where people went bust playing the same sort of hands ans encountered the same flop. its alright flushy saying theres many flops he can take it down but those are the exact same flops he can get pushed off his hand, obviously im no expert and who am i to question his play but there u go thats my thoughts

Also, it would be really cool if we could stop referring to Ac9c as a "raggy Ace".

I cant see why people are not viewing this as cooler.

Micks raised with A9 c  hes hit a 9 3 2 two club flop. Id guarentee by the time the final action got back to him he knew he was behind
 but its very hard to put both players on their exact hands. He could have thought his A was live as well 9 clubs giving him 12 outs twice. One of the players might have had a 2 pair instead of a set ,the other a draw (flush with 2 overs) reducing his outs
 Its a good spot to get a big stack or fold and keep 13k or 17k whichever it is.
If this flop would have happened online everyone would be screaming " rigged " I mean come on TP/TK nut flush draw vs Top 2 Pair vs Bottom set.
I dont think Micky was just going for the 450 in blinds with his raise and couldnt believe his luck at 1st on that flop.
Like someone said there were some weak players( not including Barny btw) in the field so they didnt have to be as strong on the flop as they were. . I think it was a good spot to get a big stack and Id find it very hard to turn down.
verdict: COOLER :)

I wish this would have been looked at without knowing the other players holdings and seen if opinions changed

this is not a cooler imo. This is a case of gambling with 9 outs max and any good player with 17k left at 150/300 with only 1900 invested should get away from this.

Jeez esp wernick who is championed by many as the best short stacker around.

Its a cooler in the sense that everyone has hit the flop so big. Like I said I would guarantee Micky knew he was behind when the final action got back to him but decided to go for a big pot. I cant imagine Micky or anyone else putting his opponents on their exact holdings though.
On the flop he was 32.66% vs 12.84% vs 54.48% so was it mathmaticaly a bad decision?
I know its unlike Micky to put his chips in when he knows hes behind at that stage of a comp but without knowing their exact cards I dont think it was that bad

I don't want to keep beating the dead horse on this one BUT aren't the two holdings of both villains just about the best holdings they could have for Mickey?

Surely we know atleast 1 of them is beating him and the other one in a worse case scenario holds two of Mickey's outs with a K high flush draw? If therefore knowing the other guys holdings it's debatable..not knowing the other two guys' holdings would make it a worse decision?

scenario : A9 c vs 23 o/s vs KQc
               47.39% vs 49.94% vs 2.65%
So if this was the case  the other  isnt the best for Micky  and this could have been probable
If he was up against 2pair and an overpair he would be a slight favourite (according to HMF poker calculator)
So imo it isnt just a straight forward fold

Think they might be the worst

Sorry thought I'd replied to this one.

didn't know the difference was this much...

Can we not raise with ANY two cards if:

a) we are confident in our post flop play
b) stacks are deep enough
c) we don't get married to hands

??

nail, head, end of thread.

nearly

but not quite

almost though

but not quite

Why not?

Cooler

Erm this might be a bit of a silly question but.........................



What's a cooler????

Sorry I'm still fairly new to this and I've not got all the technical terms ;ashamed;

COOLER: This is a hand that you lose (usually a large pot) with that cannot be helped. For example...

You have KK. Your opponent has AA. Flop comes AKK, the turn card a 3, and the River card an Ace.

This example is extreme, but you get the idea. There is no way that either one of you will be folding this hand, and therefore you lose a large pot.

Glad your keeping the thread going ;D

Excellent. A new name for my bad beats.

Do you get a 50p fine for a cooler story??

maybe

A no most are pretty sick with this thread now but have just read all post and thought id stick my 2ps worth in

As for the discussion of playing a9s (which isnt really a raggy ace) i cant see why anyone has a problem with this play and the raise does make his hand look stronger instead of just flat calling

As for the a9c i personally would've folded seen as i still had a big enough stack to play poker with and would want to pick a better spot as bet raise re raise u av 2 put 1 of them on trips ( i fought barny woudlve been the one with trips) However no1 can critisize this play as mathemtically it's the correct play therefore it just depends on if you want to gamble (i spend so much time trying to convince people that poker isn't like other forms of gambling)  but at the end of the day a lot of the times whenthe chips go in its at best a 70-30 gamble

I just wondered tho is there no way that any would've played barney's hand differently i gues with just a bet and raise u would need negreanu style reading skills to fold but is this possible.Also y call in the first place when there prob no flop that would be good to u except 33x or 993of course both very unlikely even 33x x could be fh for someones pp.Would it be to weak a play to just flat call with the 2pair then if micky then goes over the top and other guy also calls u no ur behind or if micky just calls and club comes u can get away from it 2 Sorry to most for trying to keep the thread going lol which is mostly good reading

eh?

Wasn't a really good example of a cooler - it isn't a beat.  It's a hand where both players have to get the lot in either pre-flop eg AA vs KK or on the flop e.g. set vs combi draw.  Depending on how aggresively both players have been playing Top pair vs 2 pair can even be a cooler.  If its heads up, two overcards to bottom pair is usually a cooler for Royal Flush.

this sentance took me a long time to understand lol.

Happened the other day, i was steaming!

I was playing Dubai afterall

??? whats the eh for just saying i wouldve folded my nut flush draw knowing i am behind and still have enough chips to play and not need 2 push str8 after anyway ive red ur comments u wouldn't have thats fair enough neither are bad plays i think.

I thought you meant pre, my bad

just seen this thread - has to be untrue

 9d 3d is the pure nuts............ ;whistle;

Ok when u first put that thought i mustve wrote id fold the trips (which i wouldnt of course lol)

crikey i must've read the wrong book and i folded it like 6 times in my last game as well will have to re-asses my game now  ;D

probably because you wont find it in any book - in fact its top secret info so hush hush ;)

Thanks for the heads up m8 i won't tell a soul lol