blonde poker forum

It's all been going swimmingly until this hand comes up.

I have parlayed my stating 20k upto about 30k, but Sam has just trebled up his short stack to over 35k when this hand came up:

Level 4 100-200

UTG I make it 500 to play with KK.

4 callers (!)

Sam in the bb makes it 2900.

I reraise to 6400.

Everyone folds back to Sam who makes it 10100.

I call.

Flop comes AT3 rainbow

He checks, I check.

Turn 5

He checks, I check.

River J.

He bets 10500, I fold.


Thoughts appreciated on size of my 4 bet, me not 6 betting preflop (size ofbet if you think I should 6 bet).

Also, what about my checks on flop and turn? (I think I should probably have bet the turn).

What about my fold on the river?

Any comments/questions welcomed.

I think you should either flat the 3bet (2900) or 6bet all-in, 5bet calling makes abso no sense to me because its impossible for you not to have a really good hand once you call the 5bet, you're not just "taking the flop" with 7s 9s are you? Also, as crazy as sammy g is I think it's very very likely he has a really strong hand pre-flop. there is literaly nothing you beat OTR except QQ which I think is unlikely to take this post-flop line.

This all being said who the fuck knows what goes on in sammy's head, lol.

The plan was to 6 bet shove when I 4 bet, but his reraise size really fcked with my head.

I didn't know what to think. I certainly couldn't fold imo, I was getting set mining odds if nothing else.

Still don't know what to think tbh.

Once he makes it 10,100, if you call there is what 21k in there? With aces I guess you can call but with Kings I'm either clicking back or shoving. Probably shoving - worst case he folds and you pick it all up without risk?

If he'd made it 14k or so that was the plan.

But his five bet is so small, it just screamed of aces reopening the betting so I could 6 bet.

But obviously that's what it was designed to make me think.

Think the last line is key - if he has Aces I'm going broke here

Plus re set mining - you're never folding on a low flop I don't think so I don't think you can look at it from that angle

think you've totally leveled yourself here Kieth, made a kinda easy spot needlessly hard.

Flat the 3bet and play with a disguised hand down the streets (this will work ok vs Sammy who'll barrell and bet thin for value more than most imo) or get as much in pre-flop as he'll let you which given Sammy's image can only be good as well. Putting 1/3 of yoru stack in p/f and playing a really strong range passively post-flop without the initiative seems like the worst of the three by a long mile.

why would you ever expect him to size to 15k thats half of his stack and can never be a bluff. 4bet size should be as small as possbile as he won't be 5b bluffing more than 30% of his stack, its hard to size it too much smaller, so think flatting is only option here.

Just 4b/6b Ako/Aks and 4b bluff AQ or KQ.

Why would I expect him to 5bet bigger?

Because i am literally calling/reraising with every hand I'm 4 betting with.

And believe me, in this spot I am 4 betting extremely wide here, in fact I'm 4 betting approx 100% of my raising hands (although he doesn't know this, I haven't 4 bet once so far)

Would you want to play a 20k+ pot OOP v an unknown hand?

what is going on ITT.

4betting 100% sounds ridiculous Keith, Sammy has squeezed after an UTG open and some caller, PRE-ANTES, from the small blind, yes he will be light a decent % but a lot of "good" 3betting hands become really profitable calls after all the action, J9s and so on. I think he just has a really good hand here most of the time. Appriciate that you have opened UTG so will have strong range yourself but your saying you'd 4bet a hand like QTs, defo levelling yourself of sammy's image imo.

4betting, and then flatting the 5bet for 1/3 of your stack looks INSANELY strong like you literally have a big hand always so surely a click/jam would look weaker? If you wanna be deceptive then flat the 3bet imo, flatting the 5bet isn't remotely deceptive, I think sammy will put you on QQ-AA here a high % of the time, you've opened UTG, 4bet a really strong looking 3bet and then peeled an even stronger looking 5bet, realistically you have KQ here preflop about 0.005% of the time.

The way the hand plays out wouldnt be at all surprised if he has kings aswell actually.

confused, wha5 was your initial plan when you slid out the 4b?

Sam is playing fast and loose.

He has pretty much said he is playing to get a stack or use the second bullet.

His squeeze meant zero to me, in this exact spot, where I have 0 four bet's so far, against an opponent who I think is very likely to be squeezing very thin I think 4 betting is mandatory.

The thing is, I don't think my 4 bet does look strong.

All that dead money, his squeeze doesn't look at all strong to me. I think he's going to do this with virtually any two.

His 5 bet, though, looks insanely strong to me.

But getting over 6/1 in position, I'm at least calling with all the hands I'm 4 betting with.

KQ is alot more likely than you imagine. Would have played the same way with KQs in this exact spot.

To 6 bet jam if he made it 13-14k.

I'm not justifying my play at all.

I know I played it like a wanker.

Just explaining why I'm a wanker ITT.

but you know he isn't terrible right? he'd never ever make it 14k it would be truly terrible.

<3

Feel you put yourself on the back foot throughout the hand. Once the idea villain has AA is in your head the hand is already lost imo. Think openly fast/loose villain vs KK is a good coup for us whatever sizing he chucks out.

So in this sort of spot a 5 bet of approx 15% is standard, but a 5 bet of 25% of the pot is "truly terrible"?

Prob is terrible because he only needs to go 10.1k to scream of aces

Sam's 3 bet was approx pot sized.

His five bet was approx 15% of the size of the pot.

Is there no incongruity here?

But does he know I am a wanker when he makes this bet?

If you think your 4 bet doesn't look that strong then surely he is 5 betting wider and he is good enough to use his betsizing to make himself look stronger.  I think you are overthinking it a bit.  Pretty obviously a fold now though.

Personally I wouldn't take my thinking to that level of speculation. Information you know for sure is the guy has made noises about gambling his stack and is playing LAG. Once that dynamic is in the hand what he thinks you think about his image is too complicated. I would try and get it in pre and would bet turn. If villain was an old woman who hadn't raised the whole night I might think only AA.

I think you played it well... Sam is gonna be pretty strong here IMO and if he ever is bluffing (which I doubt) then you keep those hands in by just peeling. I think 6 betting instead of jamming is pretty silly, just trying to overrep our hand, lol. Postflop we have a lot of excuses to not put any more chips in now, my only worry is if he would vbet QQ on the river or not but most of the time he's just got something really strong vs you I think.

Also, more preflop

I think the point isn't the size of the pot, it's the % of his stack he's committing. If he raises to say 40% of his stack, or any amount that commits him to the pot (should you shove), then he has a hand that he's going with, whereas if he raises to 20-30% of his stack, he isn't committed and can still fold, thus he can have a bluffing range.

So I'd never expect a good player like Sam to ever reraise to this amount you expected him to. He'll click it to 30/35% of his stack, or he'll jam, or he'll fold.

I like the way you played it actually. I don't think you played it like a wanker :)

I dont like peeling the 3b fwiw as you have 4 or 5 people with position against you that might also flick it in once you call.

For me, if I have KK, vs Sammmmmy G, - because he is such a high level thinker and imo on a different level to 90% of the players in the uk, I would just jam and try and take it down there and then, or hold vs weaker hands etc.

When u peel, I think you put yourself in a coffin too much of the time vs this particular player, and you never really know where u are unless u flop a King.

If he has Aces then gl, u can never pass this hand pre, so I'm looking to get all my chips in pre flop vs such a class player, to take all these later complications away on each street.

Sry about how I worded it, I know what I'm trying to say, but never seems to come across clearly on the Internet.

this with a ATYP

I dont think you're a wanker Keith, I think you're a lovely chap.

I think too many people get massively fancy or second guess themselves when playing vs well known players. Dreenie's post highlights this. He's just a human being with two cards same as you. You happen to have the 2nd best starting hand in holdem. What do you think he can do? What is this coffin he can put you in postflop? Just play it normal.

Funnily enough I had Kings on day 1a vs a Sammy 3b (when I'd raised EP). I had this "dilemma too" as someone very call happy had called my raise in between.

Thankyou David.

Played it perfectly imo

I think you should have ordered a sandwich, and then got it in pre! If he has AA - eat the sandwich, if not then you feed the bats birds with it

Don't underestimate the time it will take you to get your sandwich at the Vic though...

For the tiny amount it is worth, I jam pre because you're more likely to do that with a hand that is less than KK than flatting the 5-bet.

You never ever flat with AK and then check the flop and turn behind so it seems to me Villain is getting a free chance to win the pot on the river against your pretty exposed hand.

So easy from here with hindsight and knowing your hand, tho :)

Make me play it over the table and watch me fold like Superman on laundry day.

But that's the thing.

My hand isn't exposed at all.

I am calling 100% of my 4 betting hands here getting 6/1+

78s JQ KQ 22 T8 everything.

As it happens I had dem kings, but it didn't have to be that way.

How are you going to play those hands though in a 5bet pot vs a good player?

There's 20k in the middle when you flat the 5bet and you have 20k behind. I think the Axx runout froze the action a bit, but generally Sam isn't going to be checking down boards and making it at all easy to play hands like 78s and 22.

No love for the 6b jam?

Reps enough AK for sammy to sigh call it off with JJ/QQ/AK and I don't think we really induce sammy to do much postflop by flatting when we obv just have a big hand. You may well be peeling the 4b with a ton of stuff Keith, but i'm pretty sure that sammy will just be giving you QQ+

If you open UTG, face a squeeze from BB and 4-bet, then the 3-bettor re-pops small, I think calling shows a lot of strength and not 78s.

I'm a mug of a player, bit I'd rather fold than call in this spot. If the flop comes J72, you're putting the rest of your stack (a pot sized bet) in and getting called by hand that beats you more than you want.

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

That's the only advantage I've got in this coup.

I think Sam probably imagines my hand is top premium, but it really isn't.

This was my thought process through the hand.

I raise UTG. I have been very active preflop, that's why my raise got no "respect" and found 4 callers.

Sam knows I've been raising alot/playing lots of hands, and he's aware the other players on the table know this too.

There's nearly 3k in the pot and really with a pot sized raise, he's going to take it way more than 50% of the time usually.

However, because I believe he is likely to make this squeeze with virtually any 2, my 4 bet is mandatory in my mind, whatever I've opened with.

Does Sam know or give me credit to 4 bet with any two? (well, not exactly any two I'm opening wide UTG, but not any two no look)

Whn he 5 bets so small (I still think this bet is small, but Pleno seems to think it is standard), this gives me a dilemma.

Absolutely I'm calling with 90% of my hands here, the hands I have problem with are my premiums AA, KK, QQ, possibly AK.

Has Sam got the hand he's repping or is he playing with my head?

The other 90% I'm prepared to see the flop, if it fits, I'm going allin, if it doesn't I'm happy to fold.

Entire thread is 'I got 4 callers from UTG, check out my laggy self, old pro still got the moves' brag post from Keith IMO.

The problem you are giving yourself by calling Keith is the pot to stack ratio you are left with, with your perceived range of calling hands (ignoring the fact you have KK for now)

I think part of the problem you have given yourself is the dischord between what range you believe you are repping against what Sam believes you are repping. Add this to your perception of his range and you have got yourself in a right muddle.

I agree with Pleno - his 5b is fairly standard (as he has an airball range where he doesn't want to donate any unnecessary chips when you 6b) - it also makes your 6b feel unusually large, so again he is leveraging his stack perfectly to make your decision far more difficult than it could be.

I think when you get in these spots vs competant players - 6 balling the lot is the way to go. If he wakes up with AA chalk it up, if he doesn't then you win a nice pot and at the end of the day havent showndown. By calling you end up in a spot where all you can do is get it in or fold (as you have a psb back), and his perception of your range will be very tight (and having JTs etc here would be pretty bad)

Probably not as clear as some people - but just my 2p worth

boom

Simple question.

What % of the time do you think he has AA here?

Where is the squid?

2%

He's capable is some sick work. Believe he's the villain in this hand

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=47726.0

I'd say he's more likely to show up with KQ suited, something like that, for him to chk 2 streets and then fire the river, I'd say he has either KQ or JJ. Maybe AK some of the time, but this spot, I'd say he's 5 betting with weakish hands, that would fold to a jam pre.

#mysticmeg

By what info you have given, and stacks, and the fact he is a G

I don't think my assigned 5b range is too far off vs you (AQo+, AJs+, KK+), so I guess AA combos are less than 10%?, sorry don't have stove on me.

Actually think Sam might flat with aces when u 4 bet more often than he five bets. Could be way off the mark tho

That is a good thread.

you would call 108o?!

this is what i think. maybe it's still 2011 and you've all moved on since :D

Don't wanna say what I had but I will happily comment on the pertinent questions:

a) Keith's absolutely right that he'd been opening a lot from every position and everyone peeled in a pretty nonchalant way. this would definitely serve to heighten the likelihood of a squeeze.
b) I thought there were only 3 callers but if Keith flats there's definitely the possibility of going 3 or way to the flop so it's a mandatory 4 bet for him as far as I can see.
c) I defo expect him to be 4-bet bluffing a lot in this spot. A sort of I know, that you know, that I know your playing relatively loose. So that increases the chances of me playing back at him
d) There's been some discussion of your 4-bet bluff range and how to proceed with it when I 5-bet. You can defo make a case for flicking it in against the 5-bet getting such a good price, but this means that your 4-betting range really shouldn't involve the bottom of your opening range, so that your not faced with getting 6 to 1 with some piece of cheese. Big difference between four-betting 54s A8o, T8o etc and JTs for instance also factoring in blockers.
e) We need to consider how a good player is gonna be affected by the re-entry element. largely I think it's gonna mean a broader range of value hands he or she is willing to go with. Say no re-entry they may not be willing to get in AK or QQ for such a large amount of chips, but re-entry means it's probably less of a mistake for them.
f) In constructing a players bluffing frequency and bluffing range we have to think about what hands they dont wanna just flick in and try and hit a big flop with multi-way. What I mean is, does a good player need to 3-bet T9s here? Is it not just better to take a flop when some of the players are less than stellar. So while their value range is very narrow, so infact is the number of hands their gonna feel compelled to 3 bet. Bluffs will probably be hands that have some reversed implied odds multi-way and largely consist of blockers. Also I think that my bluffing frequency is gonna be a lot less given how good stack was and how soft the table was. I mean Keith was literally the only person I knew at all and the only one with an online background.
g) Keith is definitely beat pre a not insignificant proportion of the time here, but I think that flatting kills his action from QQ and AK more than it serves to pot control vs AA. Don't think there's any need for balance here, because a tourney this soft is only coming round a few times a year and you should just play exploitative poker.
h) Keith tanked a decent while on the river and I think that he rightly concluded that I would know that QQ isn't good here almost ever and can't really be called by worse. Particularly when the Jack comes off.

In conclusion can see why your pulled in two different directions. The fact that I have a decently low bluffing frequency in this spot acts in contradistinction to your relatively laggy image and the dead money in the pot. Overall though think there's no reason to flat the 5-bet. If the 6-bet get's through you have nicely padded your stack and if your beat then you can always re-enter.

rofl Ah

Defo would NEVER play a hand like this ever again. Do remember reading it at the time tho and thinking how astute Marc was. He mentioned my exact timings on every decision and it really made me cringe. He was actually scrutinising everything I was doing and I was just clicking buttons. I snap called flop because I'd already planned out the entire hand in my head. Was just like peel 4-bet, float every flop, bet every turn, my hand or my opponents hand was completely irrelevant to my thinking.

Incred live tekkers tho, calling the clock and getting well arsey saved the day.

Karl must just win every thread.

Great post from Sam

the two are not mutually exclusive..... i know plenty who fall into both camps and quite rightly proud of it too

Great post, thanks for making it.

Point c, I was way wrong with my thought process, I didn't think you would give me any credit for having the ability to 4 bet air there. I mean, I've got grey hair and have trouble reading the cards without my glasses on.

Would I be correct in saying your 3 bet was relatively big and your 5 bet was relatively small to the sizes you would normally make in a similar spot?

If I am correct, what would your normal sizing be? And why did you vary from the norm, your cards or your opponent?

Sam

How do you perceive the peel range?

Great thread, really good to read two sides of one interesting hand.

Thats kinda the point of the small 5b, it gives you room to spew with the bottom of your value range and with your bluff range.  You really dont wanna be peeling 5bets too often with a weak range v good players or you will just get crushed postflop most of the time.

Nice post Sam, id like to claim i was thinking some of the stuff you said, but can never seem to put it across as well as you did.

Keith, i think your missing the point about the 3/5bet sizing.

When he is squeezing the 3 out of position, he obv needs to make it bigger to narrow the field, stop people just flicking it in with the stuff theyve peeled with because its cheap and they are deep etc and define the hands a little.

Once the pot becomes heads up, he needs to be less worried about this, the stack to pot ratio is much closer, the ranges become more polarised and to be able to still bluff, he needs to put as little in the pot so he doesnt become pot commited. He also needs to leave room to give the illusion of fold equity when he has a hand he wants to get in and allow you to bluff shove the rest of your stack, which you may feel wouldnt work if it hes made a large 5bet.

Ok this is a bit of a mash up of posts but Keith (and most of you) your perceptions/reasoning seem way off/bad to me.


a) If all these punters are flicking it in nonchalantly it means they are more likely to peel your 3 bet with 66 or whatever random crap they have which means your 3 betting range should have less (no) bluffs and be more value geared.
c) Because of A I think this means that 4 betting light here is pretty bad unless Keith expects Sam to fold AK or something heroic but with the dynamic they are both perceiving it seems unlikely that is happening (as it shouldn't be).
d) If I were Keith I'd construct his 4 betting range as something like QQ+ AK+ then throw in KQ or AQ every now and then but only based on a reasonably tight opening range. I don't think stealing UTG 10 handed pre-ante is a good idea.
These assessments just seem wrong. Firstly should probably be folding half those hands pre. Secondly, Sam is not squeezing anywhere near any 2, mostly due to (f), but also because he is far more perceptive than you give him credit for. He likely knows who you are and he obviously knows you have been opening a lot. Put one and one together and the likelihood you are bluffing when you 4 bet is ramped up significantly compared to a more sensible opening range. This makes it even more likely that his squeeze is going to be for value or at least with the intention to either 5b jam or 5b/call with. Whether you should be peeling the 5 bet or not with these hands is a completely mute matter because the problem lies in the fact that your UTG opening range is far too wide and your 4 betting range is far too wide. That's why you are putting in 10k (1/3 stack) with 20% of hands vs a tight range and then fold KK by the river. If his 3 betting range was as wide as you think it is then the river would be a snap call and the turn would probably be a bet. But I think you probably realised mid-way through the hand that he is actually likely very strong here (correctly).

I think Sam absolutely nailed the hand in play, it's just a shame he didn't win the maximum from KK (assuming he had AA here...) but looks like his read on Keith is spot on from his and Keith's post.

May I just say this is probably the most interesting thread I've read in ages.

Fascinating stuff.

Rupert, are you advocating a fold to the 5bet, then? Or am I misunderstanding?


My 2003 style thinking is you should only call if:
1. You think you're ahead and it's to keep the guy keen
2. You think you're behind and you're hoping to catch up
3. You think you're behind and you're going to try to bluff him off if scare cards come (or if something magical happens and you flop the universe).

You shouldn't ever call because you don't know where you are. This whole thing reads to me as:

- the 4 bet was because you thought you were in front
- the 5 bet changed your mind (likely because of the size of the 5bet)
- so now you either raise thinking you're getting called a lot of the time by the nuts or you fold the second nuts and neither of those sounds very good
- ergo call.

In my head, that's the wrong way round.

If you think the villain/squid has a better hand than you, the price is rarely right given how much is already in the pot just to call.

I am still 90% shove 10% fold probably.

Again, but I'm an idiot.



This whole thread (and when I accidentally stroll into PHA) reminds me just how far poker has come in the last 10 years and how it has left me behind.

As I said on page 2 I think Keith played the hand fine. But it seems more by blind luck that he got dealt KK rather than T8s and I think his overall thought process for the hand is heavily flawed and Sam was definitely exploiting his huge gaping leaks even though it was not evident in this hand because this is a cooler.

Amen to that, terrific Posts by Sam, Keith, Rupert, & the 2 Large Blokes (1 x Tall, 1 x rotundular).

I don't recommend folding KK in this spot preflop. The reason I think calling the 5 bet rather than jamming here is because Sam might expect us to peel the 5 bet quite wide but not jam light. For example say we had JJ here, we might not necessarily jam it and Sam realises that so he might be able to hero fold TT-QQ, AQs-AK here if we jam because our get in range is a fair bit tighter than our peeling range (i.e. we are never 6 bet jamming T8s here). Sam probably doesn't expect our peeling range to be as wide as Keith says it is (lol at getting to this point with T8s) but nevertheless expects us to be 4 betting and peeling pretty wide due to the dynamic (we could easily show up with QJo or 66 or something silly). So Sam's range is going to be entirely for value and wideish (like he will probably 5 bet AK and JJ here and it's not unfathomable that he would be happy eeking out some more value with TT and AQs too). By just flatting we keep in these hands (the ones he might hero fold, TT-QQ, AQs-AK) and very likely stack the hand if they hit the board well (e.g. he's going to have a tough time folding TT on 234 or AQ on Q82). Obviously there's a small chance an A hits the flop and we are in a tough spot where we have to decide what to do but that's one of the pitfalls of taking higher EV lines, you are going to face tough decisions.

That said, jamming is obviously fine too, we very likely get it in against QQ+ AK.

You actually managed somehow to answer the question without making me feel like an idiot AND explain it in such a way I think I completely understand.


Sorcery!

Would making the 4b more like 8k make this hand a little easier to define?

Live read I had a sense that it was a value hand that got worried. So JJ/QQ or AK.

In general though it used to be only live pros that would peel and talk about pot odds and online guys frowned on it. That's shifted now so that online sickos do it aswell. Mostly comes from people playing with Bonomo, Dan Smith and those guys who rarely turn down what they perceive to be 'too good a price.'

[/quote]
Great post, thanks for making it.

Point c, I was way wrong with my thought process, I didn't think you would give me any credit for having the ability to 4 bet air there. I mean, I've got grey hair and have trouble reading the cards without my glasses on.

Would I be correct in saying your 3 bet was relatively big and your 5 bet was relatively small to the sizes you would normally make in a similar spot?

If I am correct, what would your normal sizing be? And why did you vary from the norm, your cards or your opponent?
[/quote]

Think the most important thing in making the 5-bet is your stack size. With a bluff I need a sizing that doesn't commit me and obviously with value I either wanna give the illusion of weakness and/or fold equity. I guess I tailor a little either way based on my actual hand strength and what I want to achieve. Also sometimes your trying to set up a favourable SPR. OOP for instance you often just want to leave potsize back so you have a natural all in on the flop.

Rupert's so much of a boss it disgusts me.

It's probably like Brian Cox explaining relativity. I'm convinced I know it inside out after a 5 minute piece on TV, so I run excitedly to the first person I can find, beaming like a child with a bike-shaped Christmas present, only to find I can't explain any of what I just heard a moment before.

Does my nut in that he does that. Lovely hair or not.

Thanks for being so actively involved in this thread, Squid. Must be a bit weird being the only one who knows the ending ;)

Rupert abs nailed it.

Great thread thanks fior posting.

Sad to say I am now retiring from poker.

7 furlong handicaps at Southwell are easier.

I have been lazy, I have done little/no work on my game, well, ever really.

Without trying to sound to egotistical, Sam and Rupert probably have no conception what a huge edge I had over the game 10 years ago.

Even online I was winning big as recently as 2009.

That clearly isn't the case now.

I do possess some intangibles (laughably called "live skills") which players who have played a fraction of the live hands I have cannot yet own.

For example Sam - the guy who bet blind on the river, there's no way I would paid him off in your spot. You've probably never been in that position before. You played super confidently all day, until that hand came up when you seemed totally lost.

I have watched maybe 10 poker videoes in my poker career. Never had a minutes coaching.

I am a pretty good learner though, despite my age.

I pick up new concepts quite quickly. I won a lot of cash when stars first introduced turbo heads up sngs because I adapted my game very fast.

Have I got it in me to improve? We shall see.

Perhaps we need a PHA version of Tips for Tikay... "Coaching for Camel" lol.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           (http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo151/outragous76/samgrafton_zpsefebb4a2.jpg) (http://i371.photobucket.com/albums/oo151/outragous76/rupert2_zpsbea7cdb6.jpg)
                                      "ive heard dat Camel got sick skills"                                           " yeah we need to get to work"

One week at lovely Luton 8 years ago:

3 tournaments played, 2 chops and a ft

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=9967

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=9970

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=9971

What a week that was, I remember Railing that £1k Final Table as if it were yesterday, with Eric "The Screw" Barker getting totally owned by the whippersnapper Thew.

I was writing stuff for Poker Europa at the time, & my headline must have ben copied a hundred times since - Thews The Daddy

I see I cashed in two of thode three Tourneys, too, just min-cashes. Nothing changes.....

Must say, I've rarely enjoyed or learned as much from a PHA thread as I have from this one.

Ha, I've rarely been as depressed by a thread as this one!

Hang on, I make what could be my funniest post on blonde and you are still all melancholy

Seriously Keith, you didn't play this hand badly at all, just a little bit of muddling thinking against a great live uk pro!

Just pretend you had 23o and the pain goes away (and just jam next time)

Also, if the flop comes xxx and you get it in vs AA you chalk it up

I dunno, when you were once one of the best at something, and now you're totally shit at the same activity the moment that realisation hits home is pretty soul destroying.

Sort of like Teddy Sheringham missing an open goal while playing for Canvey Island  10 years after scoring a goal in the Champions Legue final.

Where did it all go wrong?

The games are tougher
You admit you haven't kept up
You arent rubbish but there are lots of good players out there nowadays
There is a tonne of info out there, too many people have access to it!


Poker 2013 is not poker 2003, it's an all together different game.

Do yourself a favour, you tube the first televised series of gukpt (2007) you will laugh at the play, the commentary everything, but some of those players were considered amazing

Oh, and you aren't bad at poker! How much have you even played in the last 12 months! 1 live mtt is no measure of anything

I really think these things are all relative.

Say the very best are above you. They will only be pocketing a percentage point or two at most over you and that equates to not a lot over a small sample size.

If you play live, you will only get a small sample size. You also have the live experience advantage, which probably gets you a chunk of the difference back.

Wish I were as rubbish as you.

Jesus I was having a good day until I clicked on this thread

hmmmmmmmmmm, not what i meant,...................... maybe......................... "at the time" at the end. The point is, nowadays, we can all laugh at plays we used to make

the game is dynamic and moving was the point I was going for

"I have been lazy, I have done little/no work on my game, well, ever really."

Very kind of you to say Guy, but with respect I don't think we've ever played on the same table, so you can't really comment on my overall skills (or lack them.)

Saw Jake Cody last night who had read this thread and he commented

"I think you played it fine. Got to give Sammy every opportunity to spew off the maximum amount of chips. The ace on the flop fucked you"

I nodded sagely.

But the truth of the matter was I had no idea awhat Sam had, I was scared he had aces and I was set mining with KK ffs.

Dreenie said there was a 2% chance he had aces, which is obv a slight exageration, but she has a point. Impossible to give him more than 20% imo.

It wasn't just a mistake, my whole thought process was fucked, I have no business being in the same game as someone who can outplay me so thoroughly.

Keith there's no doubt you are still a winning player. I really cant imagine there are very many who were in a similar situation as you 10 and 15 years ago who are still profitable and making money.

Channing and Paul Jackson obviously and very few others.

I could name several who are now pennyless without the prospect of ever making money at the game because they refused to move down or do anything at all to improve and re-learn as the game improved.

Just look at the TV shows of 6/7/8 years ago compared with those of today. I reckon average age of player has decreased by 20 years.

How many players who are over 40 do you think use any software when playing online? How many have ever watched a training video?

If you accept you need to do this stuff, then you'll be just fine. 99% don't and therein lies their problem, especially given how much more difficult it is to unlearn things that don't work anymore.

good thread. Played fine imo but agree that some of the thought process regarding ranges and sizings may need rethinking - perhaps Sam's image/reputation affected you a little bit?

But don't worry about the one guy that can give you problems at the table though, consider the other 8 players who will eventually try and give you most of their chips. It is still why (generally) playing live tournaments is profitable and certainly should be for someone with your ability/record.

I think the fact that the table is soft except for you 2 means that that Sam is a little less likely to get massively OOL against you and vice versa? Looks like a possible cooler to me.

I would also add, re your last comment, providing you think you are better/as good as the top 15% of the field, you should be in the game. There will always be better players.

One thing I do know.

The absolute most important skill a poker player can possess is the ability to judge his ability and play in games that he is capable of beating.

Some kids are really good players, but are losing because playing in games that they can't beat.

If they dropped down a rung or two, they'd smash it up, they don't because their ego won't allow them to.

I've always prided myself that I'm pretty ego free and honest with myself as regards to self analysis.

I would never have claimed to be be better a better player than Sam, Rupert, Jake, Toby etc etc

But it seems like I have to accept I'm further behind them than I ever realised, as long as I take this on board and pick my spots better, I could be ok.

Just stay out of any games I play, you rampant lagtard.

When is the next Incredible 100 at DTD?

I'm in like Flynn.

In like John West more like. Such transparent fishing ;)

Self doubt isn't always a bad thing.

I would interested to hear Sam's honest assessment of how he thought I played for the other 8odd hours we played on the same table.

self doubt is a terrible thing

self analysis is something quite positive

Come and play the £100 at G Stockton this Saturday. It's way below your skill level and full of the local Gala regs who limp call J8 off pre.
3bets are rarer than hen's teeth on most tables and people will open fold QQ to a bet on an A high flop for 1/3 pot in level 1.
But
The service in the room is great, the banter can be good and if you listen to the hand analysis you'll get more laughs than are on offer in any three of the year's top-selling Comedy DVDs

You are quite a salesman David!

I can't this week as I'm still down in London for the GUIPT which I'd preregistered for and can't withdraw from unfortunately!

Is it always first weekend of the month?

Always second weekend of the month. Good luck in whatever it is you're playing.

As depressing as it may be to you personally the attitude you show in this post is why you have been a long term winner at gambling Keith.  You have to understand and be willing to accept when you are overmatched and not have the ego to let you lose everything.  You are lucky that you still have the ability to win betting sports and you would still no doubt be able to crush smaller tourneys so why not just do that.  If you feel like you won't earn enough then put the effort in on your game.  When I first started playing poker years ago I was already a winning sports bettor and felt like it was pointless me playing the £1-2 games or £20 tournaments.  It cost me a fortune.  Years later i have realised I can beat the <£25 tournaments online and up to about £300 live so I play them.  At the end of the day it is about earning money when it is your living.  The trophies aren't worth much at cash converters anyway!!!!

Lol, what's wrong with you Camel? If you really are plagued by self-doubt and think everybody is better than you then good idea to quit playing. I never heard of a winning player with those characteristics. Better idea to work on your mentality and get the eye of the tiger back you undoubtedly had in your prime. I don't know why you're looking for villain to massage your ego itt.  I will break it down for you, the most important thing you said is being scared he had aces and set-mining with kings. So forget this elaborate trapping notion people are patting you on the back for.

The relaity in this hand is you were very active and clashed with another very active player. So the money shudda gone in pre without a second thought, but you choose to worry flat instead. When jamming is a very simple straightforward alterative. But instead you decide to create a 20k+ pot with less than that behind with a hand you aren't confident about vs a player you think is better. As it goes it was quite a well devised strat and I think you got unlucky to river set. So how does that mean this guy outplayed you? If you take this risky complicated route and it doesn't pay off you just shrug move on. Or you just jam pre and keep it simple. Either way if you're not playing kings with confidence vs gambol lag something is rotten in Denmark.

You have another comp next week so pull yourself together and stop being such a pussy is my advice. 

Not looking for him to pat me on the back at all.

Hoping he would point out any more glaring leaks actually.

If I was looking for ego massages, I would never have started this thread in the first place, would I?

Apart from that, you make some excellent and valid points.

Far from me to say but here it is, Sam didn't beat you, you beat yourself. Keep your chin up.

There isn't a professional poker player alive that hasn't at at least once seriously doubted their ability to beat the games.

PH.

PH?

(http://www.highstakesdb.com/images/players/20121005122054.gif)

Ha.

Funnily enough I was going to mention Hellmouth earlier in the thread.

I think one of the strongest parts of my game is exploiting bad players for the maximum value.

Which is often talked about as Phil's most potent weapon.

I bet Phil wouldn't know or understand what Rupert and Sam have written ITT. OK that's maybe a bit harsh, but he certainly wouldn't be thinking like that. Don't be too hard on yourself, I'm sure you are a far better player than most of the players in the GUKPT field, just because there's a handful of sicko's that are better than you doesn't mean you aren't a good value investment in that tournament, or that you can't beat the games.

LOL AndrewT, you could not have found a more perfect picture to put there, brilliant! Cannot stop laughing.

I went through this in the last year or so in relation to my ability and my dads ability. People inevitably ask me, and i presume him, who is better. I always say him at the tables, but to personal friends who ask the question I'm a lot more honest. It says a lot about poker players that for a period I thought I was better than him and I wasn't, for a period I thought he was better than me and he probably wasn't but for now I think I have the answer. "He is fantastic in the games he plays in."

Keith you dont play poker "full time" in the last yr/2 do you? You're not playing every day like you used to be.

When i go away to america to play live for 5/6 weeks I get back i am an absolute fish out of water when i get back online, I swear it never used to be like this 3~years ago (or maybe/veyr possibly i just ran incredibly well) Sam has his finger well on the pulse with tournament poker because he plays tournaments online every day. It's really not as bog a deal as you think, just every so often tons of icky spots will come up that would be tough(ish) for anyone in a short space of time and knocks your confidence back.

Completely natural mate, if you wanted to play every day and get back to a level (or the realistic equivilent of these times) similar that you were playing online a few years back I actually believe pretty much 100% you could do it, because once you have the aptitude for beating gambling and winning you never really "lose it" unless you want to.

Obviously if you carried a delusional attitude based on past success into todays game then you'll fail miserably but pretty clear to see that wouldn't be you.

I know i'm a lot less experienced than others ITT but I do think you're being harsh on yourself.

Ed Gascoigne hijacks rfgggabc's account.

That would be "He is fantastic for the games he plays in" :D

Not sure I agree with this Dave.  Surely >75% of winning poker players from 10 years ago are losers now?  It happens in sports al the time too.  People lose their edges and cant find new ones.

Nice post thanks.

Yes, playing a fraction of the volume of even a couple of years ago.

Only played about 10 online mtss in 2013 and enough heads up sngs to keep Supernova status on Stars.

Haven't played a live tournament since October (I think)

Half thought about having a couple of weeks at the WSOP this year, steering clear of the stuff I usually play and concentrating on the 1ks at the Rio and playing a few more Casears and Venetian events.

A couple of months hard study to game my in shape before then!

I agree that you have other skills with respect to live poker.  You just need a lot of work particularly with your fundamentals 40bb and below game. I imagine stuff like putting pressure on bubbles etc and which spots are good to take will come more naturally to you. Just play some fairly fast tournaments like a big 109 or something and get someone good to go over the HH and they will probably point out a ton of mistakes you are making. These mistakes all translate to live play too but they are less amplified because live poker is softer (and usually deeper for longer at the start). I don't think there's any reason why you couldn't continue to be a decent winner at the game but it's going to take a fair bit of work. Your natural edge in the game as you probably realise suffocated a few years ago. I agree with the others that you are probably still a winner in most of the stuff you play but the way I see it is what is the point in playing a £1k tournament with a 10% ROI with EV £100 for an average of 10 hours or something with ridiculous variance. The learning curve will be pretty fast at first too, like you could easily get to a very decent standard with a couple of weeks hard work (and by hard work I mean like 3 hours a day or something). It's just whether you have the inclination or not.

I think anyone who wants to or does take this game seriously should read this thread top to bottom and see what's going on here on every level.

Just fantastic.

Huge respect and appreciation for everyone who has made a positive contribution.  It's in my favourites.

Alex said Phil Helmuth wouldn’t know or understand what Rupert and Sam have written itt. And that’s probably true. But without that level of thought how has Helmuth performed in donkathons?

The difference is if Helmuth played this hand the same way as Camel he would prob fist pump fold showing kk ott proclaiming he can dodge bullets baby. Don’t think he would sulk about how far behind the pace he is.

In any one live donkathon a pro will have a negligible edge over Camel. If you are card smart and experienced you can win one comp as readily as the next man. If there is going to be an edge it will come from confidence/attitude and a more lucid approach to moving chips around. This is easily solved for Camel. All he needs to do is remember he is The Camel.

It worries me when older guys talk about how they’ve lost it. It makes me think we lose our balls at some point. We have balls for a while and it feels good and then one day they are gone and our lives are never the same. We suddenly turn into old washer-women who worry about things.

These kids are on top of their game and high in confidence. How do we beat that? Confidence and attitude is a big thing in poker imo and you are already behind if you don’t bring your own swagger to the table. So I think Camel should remember who these guys are dealing with when they sit down at the table next time. You don't need to go back to school for hours to beat the odd donkathon. You just need to get the eye of the tiger back. I would use these rubdowns about how you could make it with a lot of work to bash these pesky kids up in the next comp really. If it doesn't work out let's be ready to go again. Eye of the tiger baby.

he won this one a while back ...


:)

Yeh, the point was if they WANTED to re-find those edges they could, but nearly every single one of the guys you're talking about has a deluded sense of their own ability based on their results from a different time, and refuse to adapt themselves. It's the games adapted nuances and styles which have advanced without them and they refuse to catch up on because it would basically mean going back to basics and they think they're too good for that.

They know HOW to win at gambling though, and irrespective of how the game of poker develops that's an absolutely crucial skill, their ego/mentality/lifestyle just holds them back from putting the final bit of the jigsaw in properly which is the fundamentals of the games.

Hellmuth's huge attributes are literal unflappable confidence in himself, with good reason too, as whenever he's said "i'm the best" he's gone out and delivered on it. He reads live poker and plays against weak player pretty much flawlessly and has every gear as well, you all remember how absolutely ABSURD he played on the WSOPE final?? He's also (bar the odd explosion) seems to have excellent mental control as well, and I wouldn't be AT ALLL surprised if he had a much better understanding of all the theory stuff than you think. Obv he seems a bit fishy in cash games (I played with him in L.A in a nlhe game and he seemed a little un-able to accept that deepstacked and against good players he couldn't just run them over and his ego got a little the better of him) he had to prove he was the best the whole time whilst everyone else at the table didn't really care...

nah i know it's just funny bcos it's jake lol

 ;karabiner;

think 6b jam is probably percieved to be wider than a flat, think in this spot thats definitely a good thing.

most important part of the thread.

if we assume villain is 3betting light and expect him to 5bet light and want to construct a 4bet/[peel range we should do it with a strong range, including perhaps KK for range protection as well.

I think this is probably a step too far, shouldn't our 4b range be pretty nutted (AKo/KK/AA (AQo for bluffs?)) as we can flick in a peel with lots of other hands and make good hands at an early stage.

We would have to be very comfortable to back ourselves to play a 5b pot correctly at this stage, mainly due to adrenaline etc, although i guess that comes with the ability to construct 5b peel ranges.

interesting thread & if i were you keith i’d look on the whole piece as a useful nudge

if i had to make a list of the 10 best attributes that make up a winning tournament player i reckon i’d tick six, maybe seven boxes...i’ve recognised for many years now that i’m just not clever enough to be competitive versus a tough line-up anymore, but the reality is that rarely are there 1 or 2 of those spots on any of the tables i frequent these days & i think you’ll find that if you can do some things well you can get by without being the complete package

i've never constructed a range in my life (& i'm still not entirely sure how i would go about it), so maybe i get outplayed a few times without really understanding how i should have combated it, & yes oftentimes i read threads on the PHA board & won’t be confident enough to post, but hey; we both have a lot of experience under our belts & that counts for a lot...if i was in the business of backing players i’d happily have you on my books

you should try one of the training sites, i’ve signed up to runitonce, it’s def worth a spin & hey i gather sam now airs his dirty laundry on there...

ps. whether it were true or not it’s so refreshing to hear someone say they played like a wanker...i played like a wanker for the majority of tuesday & significant parts of saturday #boythatfeltgood

You are far from alone there, Jules. I would say the huge majority are in the same boat. They - we, you, I - would be better players if we did, but it does not seem to have stopped many, you included, from doing rather well.

Thanks for this post Julian, a lot of good points you make.

I plan on doing quite a lot of work on stuff in the weeks after Cheltenham pre going to the WSOP.

It's my quietest time of the year for horse racing, so I should have lots of time to spare.

As for the UKIPT, I took on board a great deal of what Mantis said.

I stopped worrying so much about the opposition, and let them worry about me and played a bit like I used to 8-10 years ago.

Instead of them putting me in awkward spots, I tried to put them in positions where they had the tough decisions to make.

It didn't going totally smoothly, I got caught with my pants down a couple of times, but I must say I haven't enjoyed a day of playing as much as I did yesterday for a very very long time.

One stage I raised pre 6 hands in a row. Been a while since that happened!

I'm pretty sure this isn't true Julian. You just don't call it "constructing a range" there's no new poker theory it's just the same old things the rounders did made geekier with slightly more complex maths and with new names.

If you've ever had a conversation abut a poker hand where you have say KQ and afterwards you ask yourself "what would I have done with AJ,,,mmm folded but I'd have defo gone all in with AQ" you've pretty much constructed a range right there. People like to make poker overly complex cos it makes them sounds cleverer.

Now, if you'll excuse me I've got some triple turn-range merging to do.

Ha, so true.

The modern generation say "I put him on....." whereas peeps at my age call it "guessing what he has".

Same thing, some might say.

 Why does nobody just come out and say it...

 Get a fucking job.

point taken dave, but folding KQ/AJ, ru off your fkn rocker son?

& glgl keith if u got thru

Who the fuck would employ me?

With that potty mouth, story checks out.

wtf is "range protection" when it's at home?

Keeping KK in strengthens your hand range so "protects" it. Not sure how this works in a 5bet pot in a live tournament here however.

Surely this is irrelevant against a opponent you've never played before?

In this hand what is Sam basing his perception my range? Just what he thinks of my playing style? Or is there a generic formula?

Perceptions and style. There is almost a generic formula as in virtually everyone will play a good chunk of hands the same way, especially in online cash for example. It is a little more difficult live where someone is liable to show 8s5s because they beat Great Aunt Betty with it in 1978. I'm pretty sure Sam puts you on a big hand as soon as you 4bet. Start with the base range and narrow down for every action ie. You open X% here, you call/4bet/fold with A/B/C% then look at what makes up hands in these spots. I.e prob folding KQo but calling with KQs, 4 betting AA and AKo but calling AKs. Then on your next action you flat the 5b. So now we know you have B% of hands that you have opened/4b/peeled. What hands would I give here that make sense for following action. AA(discount)/KK(discount)/QQ(1/3rd) Normally add a spew factor for random junk/illogical stuff (the 8s5s)

Normally in live poker its more like. Sweet, JcKc, il put in some chips. Oh seat 2 and 3 called, they're pretty loose. Oh I flop a Jack. Lets bet. Turn. He didnt raise and i have the toppest of pairs, I bet. River: Look at board, did any draws get there, maybe check/call maybe bet depending on opponent again. You'd lose your mind doing range analysis in low stakes live games, just not really worth it and it is instinctual like you have. The range protection side of things is something I don't really do but can exploit. For example in NLO8, it is often correct to open jam AA for lots of bigs as it is hard to play post and people call with worse. On a ft (thin) the other day,  a good reg jams utg+1 for 35bb. Next hand he opens for the minimum. As I know he doesn't have AA unless it is extremely premium, I can jam fairly wide especially if someone is short. Again, not sure how it applies in this live hand apart from discussing game theory.

I hope this makes sense and isn't absolutely horrible. I'm not 100% sure i wrote anything that worthwhile but I think this answers some of the questions.

Haven't you just made a good case for not open jamming 35bbs with AA at NLO8?

Well the $1.5mil winners jam and I don't v.often but who am I to tell them how to play, still a fish on a heater after all

yeah i agree, it should be extremely low down on the list of considerations (well it should be- its not like you are playing this even 5 times a day against the same players).

Protecting his range in this spot is moot, it doesnt come up anywhere near often enough to require balance and as dan morgan said, a 6b jamming range is probably MORE balanced.

you both just have very good hands in this spot, kinda nonsense suggesting otherwise tbh.

Yeah Sam's 5bet is pretty bad imo.

edit: unless he's bluffing

If he's got aces he's won the minimum, that's for sure.

Totally mind fucked me though, whatever he had, so that must have a tiny bit of equity.

still dunno why it mind-fucked you to be brutlly honest, you know Sam's reputation, he 3bet you, you 4bet him, I can't believe you never thought you might get 5bet here lol

Will somebody give me a price for Camel to win Ukipt?

I think with his new fearless attitude he's a red hot favorite.

6/1 here at the mutual of lil dave, 13/2 for regular donaters customers like yourself though Karl, Cos can have 9/1 :D

fml

You do realise this an old guy who the game has passed by? If he doesn't get blinded out he might fall asleep...

I'll take 10/1

I was going to ask this myself, would be an epic moaned it in! Didn't want to bok Hero though. glgl today Keith!

what? did you read the thread Dave? lol

yes.

I think Sam has a very strong hand and is prolly calling off pre-flop, and I think Keith, despite what he says has an equally strong hand when he flats the 5bet.

       What a brilliant thread. I am with Keith on the 'age' and confidence issue. However I do know that I would have got it all in pre. If you bust you can do the 'yeah,ran in to aces' whilst waiting for the sandwich to arrive. But then what do I know. No need to answer that.

The whole hand would play out differently against you though Ian.

If Keith's been aggro which I'm assuming is the case then Sam's actions are very different compared to when he's up against yourself who probably wouldn't be opening quite so often.

Your UTG opening range is vastly different to Keith's which in turn affects Sam's BB 3/5 bet range. The only way it ends up in the middle against you is if he's got the same hand or AA. Vs Keith he can get it in with worse and also have a bluffing range thrown in to boot.

This isn't intended as a knock to how you play btw. It'd be exactly the same against me as my UTG 4 bet range is about as narrow as it gets.

Stay away!

He was calling 108s no?

Obviously not. I know you said you would Keith but you'd call or fold most of the time and not 4bet with T8s im SURE of it.

I think if Sammy is light then it's bad, if Keith is splashing around with J9s then that's equally as bad

The only reason I would 4bet light here is because I was least likely to have opened super light on Sam's bb UTG.

But if whatever reason I had, I guarantee I would have 4bet, I was super confident his 3bet at that moment was weak.

LOL

How have I just found this thread? Absolutely hilarious antics going off.

Because you asked a wise and learned chap?

:)