Hand v Sam Grafton at GUKPT London

[The Camel]

Lol, what's wrong with you Camel? If you really are plagued by self-doubt and think everybody is better than you then good idea to quit playing. I never heard of a winning player with those characteristics. Better idea to work on your mentality and get the eye of the tiger back you undoubtedly had in your prime. I don't know why you're looking for villain to massage your ego itt.  I will break it down for you, the most important thing you said is being scared he had aces and set-mining with kings. So forget this elaborate trapping notion people are patting you on the back for.

The relaity in this hand is you were very active and clashed with another very active player. So the money shudda gone in pre without a second thought, but you choose to worry flat instead. When jamming is a very simple straightforward alterative. But instead you decide to create a 20k+ pot with less than that behind with a hand you aren't confident about vs a player you think is better. As it goes it was quite a well devised strat and I think you got unlucky to river set. So how does that mean this guy outplayed you? If you take this risky complicated route and it doesn't pay off you just shrug move on. Or you just jam pre and keep it simple. Either way if you're not playing kings with confidence vs gambol lag something is rotten in Denmark.

You have another comp next week so pull yourself together and stop being such a pussy is my advice. 

There isn't a professional poker player alive that hasn't at at least once seriously doubted their ability to beat the games.

PH.

PH?

Ha.

Funnily enough I was going to mention Hellmouth earlier in the thread.

I think one of the strongest parts of my game is exploiting bad players for the maximum value.

Which is often talked about as Phil's most potent weapon.

[cambridgealex]

I bet Phil wouldn't know or understand what Rupert and Sam have written ITT. OK that's maybe a bit harsh, but he certainly wouldn't be thinking like that. Don't be too hard on yourself, I'm sure you are a far better player than most of the players in the GUKPT field, just because there's a handful of sicko's that are better than you doesn't mean you aren't a good value investment in that tournament, or that you can't beat the games.

[skolsuper]

LOL AndrewT, you could not have found a more perfect picture to put there, brilliant! Cannot stop laughing.

[rfgqqabc]

One thing I do know.

The absolute most important skill a poker player can possess is the ability to judge his ability and play in games that he is capable of beating.

Some kids are really good players, but are losing because playing in games that they can't beat.

If they dropped down a rung or two, they'd smash it up, they don't because their ego won't allow them to.

I've always prided myself that I'm pretty ego free and honest with myself as regards to self analysis.

I would never have claimed to be be better a better player than Sam, Rupert, Jake, Toby etc etc

But it seems like I have to accept I'm further behind them than I ever realised, as long as I take this on board and pick my spots better, I could be ok.

I went through this in the last year or so in relation to my ability and my dads ability. People inevitably ask me, and i presume him, who is better. I always say him at the tables, but to personal friends who ask the question I'm a lot more honest. It says a lot about poker players that for a period I thought I was better than him and I wasn't, for a period I thought he was better than me and he probably wasn't but for now I think I have the answer. "He is fantastic in the games he plays in."

[SuuPRlim]

Keith you dont play poker "full time" in the last yr/2 do you? You're not playing every day like you used to be.

When i go away to america to play live for 5/6 weeks I get back i am an absolute fish out of water when i get back online, I swear it never used to be like this 3~years ago (or maybe/veyr possibly i just ran incredibly well) Sam has his finger well on the pulse with tournament poker because he plays tournaments online every day. It's really not as bog a deal as you think, just every so often tons of icky spots will come up that would be tough(ish) for anyone in a short space of time and knocks your confidence back.

Completely natural mate, if you wanted to play every day and get back to a level (or the realistic equivilent of these times) similar that you were playing online a few years back I actually believe pretty much 100% you could do it, because once you have the aptitude for beating gambling and winning you never really "lose it" unless you want to.

Obviously if you carried a delusional attitude based on past success into todays game then you'll fail miserably but pretty clear to see that wouldn't be you.

I know i'm a lot less experienced than others ITT but I do think you're being harsh on yourself.

[AndrewT]

One thing I do know.

The absolute most important skill a poker player can possess is the ability to judge his ability and play in games that he is capable of beating.

Some kids are really good players, but are losing because playing in games that they can't beat.

If they dropped down a rung or two, they'd smash it up, they don't because their ego won't allow them to.

I've always prided myself that I'm pretty ego free and honest with myself as regards to self analysis.

I would never have claimed to be be better a better player than Sam, Rupert, Jake, Toby etc etc

But it seems like I have to accept I'm further behind them than I ever realised, as long as I take this on board and pick my spots better, I could be ok.

I went through this in the last year or so in relation to my ability and my dads ability. People inevitably ask me, and i presume him, who is better. I always say him at the tables, but to personal friends who ask the question I'm a lot more honest. It says a lot about poker players that for a period I thought I was better than him and I wasn't, for a period I thought he was better than me and he probably wasn't but for now I think I have the answer. "He is fantastic in the games he plays in."

Ed Gascoigne hijacks rfgggabc's account.

[cambridgealex]

One thing I do know.

The absolute most important skill a poker player can possess is the ability to judge his ability and play in games that he is capable of beating.

Some kids are really good players, but are losing because playing in games that they can't beat.

If they dropped down a rung or two, they'd smash it up, they don't because their ego won't allow them to.

I've always prided myself that I'm pretty ego free and honest with myself as regards to self analysis.

I would never have claimed to be be better a better player than Sam, Rupert, Jake, Toby etc etc

But it seems like I have to accept I'm further behind them than I ever realised, as long as I take this on board and pick my spots better, I could be ok.

I went through this in the last year or so in relation to my ability and my dads ability. People inevitably ask me, and i presume him, who is better. I always say him at the tables, but to personal friends who ask the question I'm a lot more honest. It says a lot about poker players that for a period I thought I was better than him and I wasn't, for a period I thought he was better than me and he probably wasn't but for now I think I have the answer. "He is fantastic in the games he plays in."

Ed Gascoigne hijacks rfgggabc's account.

That would be "He is fantastic for the games he plays in"

[redarmi]

, because once you have the aptitude for beating gambling and winning you never really "lose it" unless you want to.

Not sure I agree with this Dave.  Surely >75% of winning poker players from 10 years ago are losers now?  It happens in sports al the time too.  People lose their edges and cant find new ones.

[The Camel]

Keith you dont play poker "full time" in the last yr/2 do you? You're not playing every day like you used to be.

When i go away to america to play live for 5/6 weeks I get back i am an absolute fish out of water when i get back online, I swear it never used to be like this 3~years ago (or maybe/veyr possibly i just ran incredibly well) Sam has his finger well on the pulse with tournament poker because he plays tournaments online every day. It's really not as bog a deal as you think, just every so often tons of icky spots will come up that would be tough(ish) for anyone in a short space of time and knocks your confidence back.

Completely natural mate, if you wanted to play every day and get back to a level (or the realistic equivilent of these times) similar that you were playing online a few years back I actually believe pretty much 100% you could do it, because once you have the aptitude for beating gambling and winning you never really "lose it" unless you want to.

Obviously if you carried a delusional attitude based on past success into todays game then you'll fail miserably but pretty clear to see that wouldn't be you.

I know i'm a lot less experienced than others ITT but I do think you're being harsh on yourself.

Nice post thanks.

Yes, playing a fraction of the volume of even a couple of years ago.

Only played about 10 online mtss in 2013 and enough heads up sngs to keep Supernova status on Stars.

Haven't played a live tournament since October (I think)

Half thought about having a couple of weeks at the WSOP this year, steering clear of the stuff I usually play and concentrating on the 1ks at the Rio and playing a few more Casears and Venetian events.

A couple of months hard study to game my in shape before then!

[Rupert]

I agree that you have other skills with respect to live poker.  You just need a lot of work particularly with your fundamentals 40bb and below game. I imagine stuff like putting pressure on bubbles etc and which spots are good to take will come more naturally to you. Just play some fairly fast tournaments like a big 109 or something and get someone good to go over the HH and they will probably point out a ton of mistakes you are making. These mistakes all translate to live play too but they are less amplified because live poker is softer (and usually deeper for longer at the start). I don't think there's any reason why you couldn't continue to be a decent winner at the game but it's going to take a fair bit of work. Your natural edge in the game as you probably realise suffocated a few years ago. I agree with the others that you are probably still a winner in most of the stuff you play but the way I see it is what is the point in playing a £1k tournament with a 10% ROI with EV £100 for an average of 10 hours or something with ridiculous variance. The learning curve will be pretty fast at first too, like you could easily get to a very decent standard with a couple of weeks hard work (and by hard work I mean like 3 hours a day or something). It's just whether you have the inclination or not.

[TommyD]

I think anyone who wants to or does take this game seriously should read this thread top to bottom and see what's going on here on every level.

Just fantastic.

Huge respect and appreciation for everyone who has made a positive contribution.  It's in my favourites.

[MANTIS01]

Alex said Phil Helmuth wouldn’t know or understand what Rupert and Sam have written itt. And that’s probably true. But without that level of thought how has Helmuth performed in donkathons?

The difference is if Helmuth played this hand the same way as Camel he would prob fist pump fold showing kk ott proclaiming he can dodge bullets baby. Don’t think he would sulk about how far behind the pace he is.

In any one live donkathon a pro will have a negligible edge over Camel. If you are card smart and experienced you can win one comp as readily as the next man. If there is going to be an edge it will come from confidence/attitude and a more lucid approach to moving chips around. This is easily solved for Camel. All he needs to do is remember he is The Camel.

It worries me when older guys talk about how they’ve lost it. It makes me think we lose our balls at some point. We have balls for a while and it feels good and then one day they are gone and our lives are never the same. We suddenly turn into old washer-women who worry about things.

These kids are on top of their game and high in confidence. How do we beat that? Confidence and attitude is a big thing in poker imo and you are already behind if you don’t bring your own swagger to the table. So I think Camel should remember who these guys are dealing with when they sit down at the table next time. You don't need to go back to school for hours to beat the odd donkathon. You just need to get the eye of the tiger back. I would use these rubdowns about how you could make it with a lot of work to bash these pesky kids up in the next comp really. If it doesn't work out let's be ready to go again. Eye of the tiger baby.

[NigDawG]

Don't underestimate the time it will take you to get your sandwich at the Vic though...

Karl must just win every thread.

he won this one a while back ...

Play worse.

Officially my favourite type of contributor to this particular forum. Every post you make is enlightening us with the gospel of how we must play, and for that we are forever grateful. If poker was as simple as you seem to think from looking at your limited posts, we would all be millionaires by now. Presumably you already are.

[Dry em]

Don't underestimate the time it will take you to get your sandwich at the Vic though...

Karl must just win every thread.

Still stand by the overall point of people saying this is awful etc without any explanation isn't particularly helpful or people who think there is a clear cut right and wrong to most problems in poker. The fact that I am a ridiculous anti bok just proved to be a bonus

he won this one a while back ...

Play worse.

Officially my favourite type of contributor to this particular forum. Every post you make is enlightening us with the gospel of how we must play, and for that we are forever grateful. If poker was as simple as you seem to think from looking at your limited posts, we would all be millionaires by now. Presumably you already are.

[SuuPRlim]

, because once you have the aptitude for beating gambling and winning you never really "lose it" unless you want to.

Not sure I agree with this Dave.  Surely >75% of winning poker players from 10 years ago are losers now?  It happens in sports al the time too.  People lose their edges and cant find new ones.

Yeh, the point was if they WANTED to re-find those edges they could, but nearly every single one of the guys you're talking about has a deluded sense of their own ability based on their results from a different time, and refuse to adapt themselves. It's the games adapted nuances and styles which have advanced without them and they refuse to catch up on because it would basically mean going back to basics and they think they're too good for that.

They know HOW to win at gambling though, and irrespective of how the game of poker develops that's an absolutely crucial skill, their ego/mentality/lifestyle just holds them back from putting the final bit of the jigsaw in properly which is the fundamentals of the games.