blonde poker forum

Going back 7-8 years, but newer members might not realise that DTD effectively started on blondepoker (well the idea started when Nick and Rob got turned away at a venue, a minute late for a comp)

Rob diarised the idea for DTD, starting on November 25th 2005 on here http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0

You'll have seen this interview with UK Poker News

http://uk.pokernews.com/news/2013/09/exclusive-rob-yong-interview-why-i-will-quit-dusk-till-dawn-11659.htm

and Lee Davy's interpretation at Calvin Ayre

http://calvinayre.com/2013/09/17/poker/dusk-till-dawn-owner-rob-yong-to-quit/

So, I thought I would start a seperate thread for people to post their thoughts on these articles and what would you say to Rob as he considers his future in the industry?

Outside 'pub' league games, DTD was my 1st experience of  live poker. I was hooked. Not a regular at the club, granted, but I have enjoyed every visit there since.

Also, on a particular visit, a chap who I didn't know at the time and who didn't know me either brought me a pint of bitter. Not that big a thing I know, but made my day later learning that it was in fact Rob Yong. Top guy/top venue.

I only have 1 problem with Rob's blog...I like many others never play in cash games online or at DTD,I only play in tournements.I will always support DTD and the management,i do this by running 2 poker nights in the DTD Poker League and playing tournements at the club..I consider myself a loyal member of DTD and find Rob's blog interesting but confusing,i may have missed the point here but i dont think so..Whilst i dont play cash i do support DTD.

I don't play cash either....but I fully agree with what Rob is saying and doing, and he's asked for support.

So I'm happy to play a couple of times a week for low stakes fun, whilst playing tournaments.

<3 Dtd

Definitely great to be part of something so local to me, and to have played against some incredible players like thewy. Reading all the hype in the press in recent years as it cemented itself in the scene and thinking 'yep'. It's good to see/hear/speak to the likes of rob who walks around the club during events like the Grand Prix, asking players what they think of certain new ideas. Fantastic team, club and they always make you feel welcome. I have spoken to people from all over the uk who enjoy the fact that they have travelled (often alone) and been made to feel welcome from the moment they get to reception and loved the atmopshere, unlike some other venues.

Nearest poker place to a nandos. Please don't close.

There is no doubt in my mind that anonymous poker will be finished when online poker is properly regulated. Governments are focussing on how to tax it at the moment, then online poker will come under the same rules as the live card rooms that these authorities regulate. You are not allowed to play in a live poker room anonymously so do you think the UK Gambling Commission will accept online players unwittingly gambling against a known fraudster, drug dealer, or more likely, a poker player with a dodgy record of cheating and collusion?

Given the above, I wonder why Rob would put a 6 month deadline on his changes, .....when surely DTD could show and lead the way to any new Gambling Commission regulations, when the time comes?

Always been loyal to Dtd . Rob's idea  is awesome for players like me that don't tracked others players . Nick is my best mate and Nick is part of Dtd . So I am going to 100% support what they are doing . Come Dtd , u get my support .
 ;goodluck; ;goodluck; ;goodluck;

before i went dusk til dawn a couple of years back a played a little online but never committed myself to taking the game seriously. DTD made me want too!
Its by far the best card room ive been in and love it, been gcasino been gentings not the same, not half as good. learnt so much playing comps there and enjoy the banter with other players, the floor staff and most dealers our great!
i agree with janster that i too myself dont really play online cash but will give this a go, it would be a great shame if rob does decide to walk away. its a tough time in this country and players may not have the wonga in there pockets free to spend as maybe they did 5-6years ago. its hard to keep increasing gtd and pushing forward when the customer base may be going backwards. i know some players who just cannot afford to play but really want to. this may have added to the whole build up of this.
i think players as a whole could make more of a effort to play there though, cos when its gone its gone :( .

im at dusk til dawn for this grand prix and hope this too gets numbers through the door. i dont play online much but the blog/post on here and facebook made me wana post something even if its not that much(lunch break).
i consider im a good customer of dtd and commit as much as i can.
i hope rob reads this and all other post from players and re-considers his decision as it would be a shame
yeahman!

i will try my hand at online cash ;)

I will give online cash a go if it helps Rob stay...hope im on Yeahman's table...great friend who i met through DTD.

if ur on my table it'll be fun Allan and agree made some great friends and met some real characters through DTD, even had Eso say 'lmk when ur playing cash' know what hes thinking.... #easymoney ;)

All Rob is asking is that those who have enjoyed the benefit's of the club over the years , of which
there have been many , register for the DTD cash games and play a few hands of poker , whether
it be 5p-10p or £1-£2 it doesn't matter. 1-2 hours a week or 10-15 hours, it doesn't matter. He needs
to know that were not all selfish and take take take all the time.

We can all praise Rob , Simon , Nick for what they do but sometimes words are not enough.

If DTD is to continue WE poker players have to give a little back , get out of our comfort zone and support
Rob by putting bums on seats in his exclusive cash games.

You never know , you might even enjoy it , especially if you outdraw Mitch ( dreaming I know )

Just because I have a screen name doesn't mean I don't have a real identity behind the accounts. This regulation talk is scary, online poker is going to get segregated off and die completely with no liquidity.

DTD was the first place I played in a casino type environment. The first time I played there I played with simon deadman, which was an eye opening experience. Dtd was the fiirst place I played a significant buyin tournament, my first £300, my first £500 and my first £1k event. Dtd was how I got into blonde and for that I owe the place a lot. Its my favourite cardroom and although I've not been as much as I'd of liked due to university and travelling, I'd be mortified for it to go.

Having Rob sit down in my 1/2 game on a deepstack weekend was an exciting experience for me. I still remember being a touch petrified of getting involved. About an hour later I 3bet Qc4c from the big blind and got called in two spots, one being Rob. I had to hit myself for that, it was the one thing I'd been trying to avoid! Playing a pot vs a man that doesn't like folding. I've only ever had one poor experience at DTD and that was at least partly my fault, and aired for the most part on this forum. But I'll be making sure to do my bit to ensure Rob stays at the helm of DTD. We have the £1m Monte Carlo to go yet. 

I admire Rob’s integrity and respect his principles, which both reflect in the culture I experience from the staff at DTD.

I’m the target market here. I’m a recreational player with no aspiration or need to make any sort of income from poker. I play a few hours online in the week and around 3 live sessions a month. All I need is to be able to maintain my modest bankroll at a level where I can enjoy the game without selling a kidney to fund it.

I’m spoiled for choice of where I pay my rake. I can get to around 10 card rooms within an hour of my door. DTD is my venue of choice. There are closer card rooms with softer average player pools, free soft drinks at tourney tables and decent player rewards schemes. But I want the best overall customer experience for my rake shilling which for me is about a friendly atmosphere, reliability, good management of the card room, consistency and integrity.

Rob’s vision for the online club cash games gets my buy in. I signed up Day 1 and I’ve played exclusively on there ever since. I like the development of identifying players and if it is managed as well as the club games, I’ll continue to support them. If they don’t meet Rob’s target, that will be a sad reflection on the player pool.

I’m looking forward to the release of the iPoker app. Playing in the club and multi tabling online club cash at the same time will be good craic.

What's worse?

A guy playing online with a HUD or a guy playing in the club but playing online on his iPad?

a HUD.

[/quote]

What's worse?

A guy playing online with a HUD or a guy playing in the club but playing online on his iPad?
[/quote]

Not exactly sure what point you're making Patrick. Is it that you consider the HUD ban not good feature?
I have no issue with people using a HUD but given choice, I choose to play where they aren't used. I have  no issue with people using iPads at live tables either. I might even join them one day (if it's permitted of course ) :)

i dont play cash these days but if i did i would try and play where HUDs are banned i am old school and dont understand them dont understand the stats people post about them and hope rob can get them banned from MTTs aswell so i am not battling against people that have reems of info on me from months back while i on my once faultless memory that is declining fast

Good luck Rob

I think the HUD stuff is fine/good/wte it's an even playing field. But - year ago all we heard was how bad mannered the young kids are at the table when they are on their iPads not talking etc then the self confessed recreational guys are now looking forward to playing online in the club something the younger guys would be castrated for.

incorrect.

mk casino is approximately 97 yards.

thanks

Using a HUD is basically cheating. You are not playing poker using just your own skill/ judgement/ reads etc. Using a HUD is a skill in itself and is not a level playing field for us recs. Players using a hud correctly make decisions largely based on the stats provided by the hud. Whilst I admire and respect successful players like pleno and others for being able to crush online poker aided by their huds, for me it puts me off playing online cos I know long term I will just not be able to win. IMO Online poker is not real poker as I know it cos I am playing against a player and a database.

I think as strong  as rob feels about this I think he should not take it so personal. I don't think even he or anyone else can eliminate Huds and tracking sites so why fight a losing battle.Rob should concentrate on the things he can influence and can make happen and what he is good at. The live club is his baby and without doubt is the premiere poker venue in Europe. No club has done more for players of all levels than dtd. DTD is an amazing club that gives more value to its customers than any other business in any other industry.  DTD is the nuts but without rob and his dream then I am afraid DTD will jus become like every other poker venue.. Good but not great. Don't give up rob just concentrate on the live club.  DTD needs u. Live poker needs u.

Not got a Ipad so deffo HUD :) (Milli will get the point!)

As long as guys on Ipads at DTD dont slow game down Im cool with them not observing whats actually going on too closely.

Not only is it the nuts card room, made so many friends there, smoking area even speaking to Rob is so calming, not just as he  helped the poker community in many ways but has got him self involved in other non poker activities in which I personally am truly gratefull, not an online cash player as I would rather travel the 78 mile round trip 3 nights a week to play live cash not to win sacks of money but for the Crack, Ryan, Tom, Dealers are just the best along with Reception Security and obv Valets, never a miserable face.

when I said it would be good craic, i meant it literally. I think it would probably enhance the social element of the live games.

My take on the criticism you mentioned was that it was of some players taking an elitist attitude at live tables and openly disrespecting rec players. I don't know where iPads featured in it but if that was a factor then I see your point but I think its apples and oranges.

In response to the article I want to say, it’s a great idea and needs to be adapted worldwide, 6 months may not be long enough to quantify whether this is a success or failure, I’m not entirely sure what Rob’s parameters are with this, maybe I’ve missed something.

This concept would be great if adapted on other sites too, maybe if they were to license on a major site where they have the normal tables but also have DTD Cash tables or a version of their own, but licensing so they get more coverage.

Change will only come if the players push for it.  At the moment I agree; Pokerstars has an unhealthy monopoly on the online poker industry, which is as bad for the game as it is for Pokerstars development, healthy competition in any industry promotes advancements in technology and also a better customer experience.

All in all I believe Rob deserves to be supported, not ‘should’ be, or ‘ought’ to be as my fellow northerners would say, but ‘Deserves’ to be. The man put his blood and sweat and money into this business, he did so to improve the conditions of the poker industry, which by anyone’s standards he’s been successful at doing, he put up guarantee after guarantee and stuck to his word even if the number of runners was abysmal.  Rob and his team have created an environment that has set the bench mark for other European operators, so it’ll be sad if he leaves the industry under these circumstances.

I don’t have a windows machine at the moment, but will by next week, so I’ll sign up and lend my support..

Good Luck to Rob..

I am sure people like pleno make full use of all twelve hands they have in their database on you. I don't know where this mythical idea that huds tell everyone with them about your game but its a load of tripe. Ok, so after say 50 hands I might be able to say he is tight or he is loose but beyond that they are of little to no use at all. Hardly different to a live game and a hud is hardly needed to make these reads in the first place. For some stats you might need thousands of hands for them to become meaningful. Furthermore, imagine I play gouty one friday night, hes had ten pints and instead of posting on blonde decides to play some cash hands somewhere. He is loose, erratic and just a bit fruity overall. The next time we play is a sunday night when he really fancies just having a quiet game with the tv on before work on monday. My hud would be a disadvantage at this point.

If professionals use huds as a crutch why do they win in live poker? I understand some of the points ie it allows people to play more tables etc but this is never the argument being used against huds.

Pls correct me if am wrong but I was under the impression that playing at the clubs cash games players would show their real names and not user names? Yesterday when I first tried a go players including me sat on the table showing nicknames! Anyway whichever way I support rob 100% and it would be a massive loss for the uk poker if he decide to withdraw from the industry

Yes its coming, real name display web page being worked on this week to launch asap

You are obv not the player I was referiring to. I clearly said professionals who know how to use their hud correctly. If you watch pleno videos he clearly states when referring to his hud that player X has high% fold to 3 bet and "we are gonna keep going after these players and keep 3 betting them. He also says in another post he enjoys raising certain players bb with any 2 because their folding too often so it is profitable to do so. If you genuinely believe they are of little or no use then why even bother having 1. Makes no sense. I don't have 1 so am prob not qualified to go into it too much but I would imagine that many pros do rely on them and would struggle if they didn't have this "load of tripe info".  This is just my opinion

That would be good.I don't play online but will do fire up the Commodore/Atari just to support Rob. I was a little suprised to learn that one reg was playing as IanGas1944. Don't mind but people may think I am older than I am.

Newy in my opinion, pros would not struggle without a HUD, they would just win at a slower rate.

Cheat ! Lol

I'm 58,took up poker as a pastime 3yrs ago..been in pro sports as a player & physio since i was 15 (rugby league).Was in same class at school as Devilfish,came to live in Retford in 1972 moved into a house near Sam Tricketts parents(long befor Sam was born)now im friends with Sam.Advised to play at DTD,so i went along with a friend and never looked back since,what a great place to socialize and enjoy a game of poker.I only play tournements and run 2 venues in the DTD poker league,ive made lots of new friends both at the club and online.Im not very good at poker but i enjoy it,i have no idea about electronic devices to follow players hands and all this 2,3 & 4 betting is beyond me.Sounds like im thick,but i have a degree in human bio mechanics and 3 nursing qualifications so am not that thick....my point is i just want to go to the club play a game and have some fun,DTD provide all that and more...if Rob goes the future of the club becomes uncertain and those comming after me wont have a DTD to go to,so i hope everyone backs Rob and the club.

HUDs are really not as useful as gets made out in the thread

1- a recreational guy 1 tabling will be able to pick up more than a guy 6 tabling with a HUD, not only do they see the styles but they see reactions to bad beats etc wheras a HUD tells you general stats
2- there is v v v few recreational guys who regs will have a v good sample size on. Example DTD Rec plays for 1 night a week, no reg will have more than a few hundred hands on them maximum
3- with low sample sizes its actually detrimental for a reg to have a HUD sometimes. IE rec finds a good hand 3-25 times and 5 bet jams, the regs hud will tell you that you have a low fold to 4bet or something but its not actually relevant due to sample

All it does is show an indication if somebody is aggresive or tight etc and if a REC is playing 1-3 tables they can pick up exactly the same information. Its just been massively overdramtized.

Hi

Read these comments. I have never used tracking software. Pleno - can you answer these 2 questions for me please;

1. What % of online cash game pros do you believe use tracking software?

2. Why do this % of online pros bother buying and using the tracking software if it doesn't make any difference

I'm genuinely interested in the answers as I'm strictly a live player.

Cheers for feedback ,Simon

Gahhhh - just accidentally wiped a looong post :(

Cliffs:

Very high 90s.
Ofc it makes a difference!  High seen flop + low showdown stats?  Pretty good candidate for a few barrels.
I wouldn't stake someone not using tracking software.  (But tying in with the topic, I ofc would if they were banned universally)
There are some negatives, the false positives already mentioned from bad samples, and the harder transition into live for stat-dependent HUD worshippers

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=60262.msg1713580#msg1713580

 ;iagree; ;iagree; ;iagree; ;iagree;

But poker is game of small edges and most "pros" prob already struggle.  Not many of the players who claim to be pro are as good or successful as pads and do not earn anything like he does.  I would imagine many of the rakeback pros and those with small/100 bb  etc who use huds wud be significantly affected if the small edge the hud gives them was removed. That small edge over 1000,s hands makes a big difference.

  I don't blame people using them, like I said earlier I think its a skill in itself getting  the most out of them and congrats to those who are successful with them. My point is for people to say they don't make that much difference IMO is complete nonsense. What the point of spending money and the time and effort on them if they don't do anything?

 For the majority of recs playing they are at a disadvantage playing against people who use hud. If I was playing live but I had a friend running round gathering very in depth notes on every  players tendencies on all tables in the comp then he relayed this info to me whenever I was in hand with someone I would be getting an unfair advantage and the other players would prob think it was not fair.

The whole HUD argument is relatively pointless as majority of people arguing one side don't really understand what they are arguing about

Fwiw I don't use a HUD, probably down to me being lazy for mtts, but for headsup cash particularly plo id say theres loads of stuff a HUD wouldn't spot and might make you make incorrect decisions about re- gameflow, compared to someone decent paying attention.

The value/advantage of HUDs is vastly overrated. The biggest benefit of tracking software is away from the table, reviewing previous hands and your own leaks etc. Tracking software and HUDs should be separate debates.

HUDs do not, as such, give a player an advantage. If you get two equally skilled players both playing one table only, the player not using the HUD will have the edge because they are actually using the supercomputer that is their brain to make decisions. A one tabling player who uses a HUD is doing themselves a disservice and will probably misuse it.

The more tables a player plays, the lower their earn rate will be at each table. A player who makes $4 an hour at one table might only make $1 an hour on each of the six tables they are playing, but overall they earn more. A HUD does not give them an advantage as much as reduces the disadvantage they create for themselves by multi tabling. For that reason, any recreational player at the table of a pro with a HUD actually benefits in that they are playing against the $1 per hour version of them rather than the $4 per hour. Of course without a HUD but across as many tables they might be playing against a $0.50 per hour version or even a losing version, but then they probably wouldn't be multi tabling in that instance.

So in a world with HUDs, as a recreational player you face more but significantly diluted pros, in a world without them you face less pros but lose a lot more in one sitting when you do. Everyone loses slower because of HUDs, which isn't a bad thing for someone who is a losing player either way.
 
Another important point is a HUD is only as good as the person that uses it. A good player will be able to make the most of the information, a bad player will use it as a crutch and not be able to make decisions for themselves (and as such, will be terrible when they play live).

HUDs are great for the poker rooms themselves, but they rarely admit it, because they obviously allow more rake to be generated by multi tabling. I recently heard that the average six max table online has 4.5 players at it, to give you an indication how significant multi-tabling is. I also recently heard that 1 in 6 online players uses a HUD. No idea what % the pros are, but I would guess high 90s.

I should say that the one big negative about HUDs, for me, is that while I dont think they are bad, I dont think there is any way they cant not sound bad to a new player. Its very hard to explain the pros and cons of a HUD to an experienced player, so for a newbie it would sound very much like its out and out cheating and there isnt much of a way around that.

+1

Collusion, multi accounting, blocking tables etc are all major issues and Rob obviously would be putting a stop to this which would be good

Think this will get me back on DTD online to be honest.
I tried getting HEM2 last year to 'join the game' and it just left me feeling stupid, and missing a trick.

Love the idea of playing against people not using HUDs.

I'm mainly a MTT player, but will probably be more inclined to play named DTD cash tables.

Excellent post.

Training sites far more damaging to the poker economy/ecology than HUDs ever are or were. HUDs and tracking software are more a tool for accelerated learning than anything else.

Thanks

If we are calling out training sites, I think hand analysis sub boards on poker forums are a bigger culprit. Thousands more people use them and imo its a more accelrated way to learn than training videos for most people. I think 2+2 has contributed more to this than all the training sites put together.

Not against either by the way, just saying.

Quite probably/possibly. But it's hard to argue based on anecdotal evidence there hasn't been a huge improvement in player quality post-Cardrunners et al.

Is there not an argument (for another thread in all likelihood) that HUD, tracking software, 2+2, cardrunners and everything else are a great tool for emerging, hard-working and talented grinders, but that they are each and all much less effective for recreational players?

There are hundreds of thousands of chess books on opening theory: 200 page books, listing a dozen slightly different variations of a particular opening to get a player into the main part of the game. Millions of books sit on the shelves of club players all over the world. These same people have databases on their laptops and 'phones with millions of games at their fingertips. They watch training videos and DVDs on the same openings. They play through grandmaster games. Then, they play the same opening in their next club match, the other guy does something they can't quite remember and they make a hash of it and lose.

If you have the ability, all these resources are a catalyst to your development. If you don't, you learn that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Rob, I really hope this works out for you. You've given live poker a tremendous shot of adrenaline and, twenty years from now, in whatever state poker is in, your name and DTD will be mentioned. Business is business and, as much as we consumers like to keep things we like around us, if you decide it is time to move on, none of us should begrudge you that. I hope such talk is premature, though, and we continue to see you front of house in the best poker club I've had the pleasure to play in.

I think that's a good comparison. All three together have made it very easy to learn to get at least competent at poker very quickly. And training videos evangelising of aggression hasn't helped matters for the recs (like me).

The difference is while both are hard to learn and take effort in poker the rewards are pretty substantial. Few things motivate like money in my experience.

Which leads me neatly on to a question of my own. How much do we think DTD is worth if Rob were to sell it? A fair few quid I would say.

<3 DTD and everything they've done.

But these cash games are highly unlikely to be revolutionary in any way. I think they are a nice idea for DTD, and Rob's modest target seems reasonable for number of table hours. So hopefully they work out in that respect, but I don't see anything else coming of them.

What would you describe displaying Real Names, Photos and Location of all players as?

Can someone answer my question on the % of cash game pros that currently use HUDS, and why this % is going to the trouble of doing so if it it correct that they don't increase their win rate? I don't understand this?

Hi Simon what would be best would be for me to set up a show with rob and Steve mcloughlin - the head of pokertracker. He is a friend and one of the most knowledgable people In the industry. He is THE most knowledgable when it comes to tracking software.


I'm pretty sure that tracking software is built purposely for post game review. I would assume out of everybody who uses a HUD only 5% would do post game analysis. Out of that 5% is suggest only 5% more would really be able to use it properly.

People buy things because they feel its minus ev not to. People do this in any kind of industry. Poker players especially are so easy to sell anything to. It will have a slight advantage I'm sure but definitely not to the scale that is being portrayed here or in the blogs.

You two having dinner together must be hilarious

Regarding training sites, again a one sided view.

Every week I do a live seminar and I infrequently release videos.

This week I released a video. It has now had 5000 isn views. Our of these views maybe MAXIMUM 100 people actually play in the games, probably closer to 30!! For the rest it's about seeing where they can get to and a motivation for them to play.

With card runners people used to aspire to be that 5knl grinder. I know after watching a training video 4 years ago I was motivated to play and deposit!!

The videos are made by successful players who are perhaps creating an illusion abut the simplicity of online poker and generating mass deposits. The positives definitely balance the negatives. Out of those 5000 guys I would assume that some will learn and some will gt Better but the majority of them will not remember any of it come next week.

Especially with pokerstrategy we do thi gs such as "heads up championships" and numerous other fun positive things for entertainment to motivate deposits and to popularize poker.

Would you believe that when I took him out and he said "I'll have whatever you gave" that he said it was the nicest teak restaurant he had been to? Haha

(http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff384/Milligan84/Keegan_zpsf6aa7037.jpg)

:D :D :D

Where did you take him? And I'm sure he's very polite ;)

I don't think your point and my point and really in conflict. I'm not saying training sites turned everyone into a monster overnight, but they did accelerate learning massively for a minority. And you don't actually need that many pros playing 8-12 tables for a few hours every day to make a BIG impact.

(http://i.qkme.me/3om6dg.jpg)

All recreational players and most others who don't grind for a living would support Rob's ideas i'm sure!!

Having seen comments made my Rob on cash tables, I assume he is leaving the industry regardless to travel with his partner.  I just hope that he remains in control of DTD even if its the live club activity as apposed to the online site.  The DTD club is such a unique event that it really is world class, however there are so many online providers that I am sure it is a very difficult business to develop a niche in the market and turn a decent profit.
  
I don't think DTD even if sold to a large chain of casinos, will run DTD in the same spirit that it is being run now....... and that would be a massive shame to this industry.  Like Maggie Thatcher I don't think Rob is for turning!!  But I personally wish him every luck in the future what ever he decides to do!!  I hope that everyone supports this effort and at least if nothing else rob may get a reasonable price for his DTD brand should he wish to sell in the future!

Hi mate

Thanks but am I going mad  here- sorry, I will ask again and try an be clearer, can you guys help me out here, Im perplexed now - I cant get a 1 word answer for these basic questions:

1. Can anyone on here answer me what % of online pro cash game players use poker tracking software? X %

2. Does poker tracking software improve a players win rate? Yes/No

This is 3rd time I've asked this? Its for my personal knowledge and if the answer to Q 2 is 'NO' then who cares whether we ban it? This is like groundhog day

Cheers Simon

.

A couple of us have suggested it is the very high 90%s. I'd say over 95%.

Around 1 in 6 active poker players uses tracking software, which I have heard from a very reliable source, and obviously that includes non pros.

And they also generated a lot of deposits too. Out of my 6 housemates, 3 subscribed to cardrunners paying a big percentage of their weekly allowance. They all deposited 1k and all lost it grinding 25nl whilst listening to the pros advice.

Ofc lol sample size, but due to the HUGE numbers who watch these videos the actual number who profit from it is miniscule.

Let me take this as an example.

http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/27332/

This is a video about starting poker, being the best, being motivated, having a blog and joining in with a coaches dream of crushing.

12000 views
450 comments of people writing "fuck yeah im going to deposit and be a crusher too"


http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/7013/

27000 viewers! This is for a 500 mtt on stars, people watch these as entertainment. Often they wont even take in whats being said. Out of those 27000 Im sure that some improved something about their game, Id even agree and say that even most intended to learn alot but in reality it was a source of entertainment and a further push in the direction of the guys that playing poker is really fun, cool and popular.

This video ahs 150,000 views! 150k for fuck sake!!!

http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/2051/

This is about BASIC poker, where the site is literally teaching peoples mums, brothers and school friends how to play the very basics thus encouraging participation rather than helping being be the best at poker.

Last point is about these superstars

http://www.pokerstrategy.com/video/19725/

Girah, one of the most famous guys in poker at the time, like galfond or whoever else. This is a 1knl video and the strategy is above and beyond what most can comprehend, but still you have literally inconceivable amount of views from people who see it as entertainment.

I really think that sites such as these are a positive for the industry and that people look at it very one sided. OFC it will speed up the progression of a lot of players but that is inevitable for anybody who spends a lot of their spare time reading or learning about something so passionately.

NOTE. I work and am responsible for the content above and probably biased.

How is anyone supposed to know the exact answer? Several people have suggested in the 90%+ region. Id say that is probably reflective of people who are multitabling ring games, plenty of people I know who play headsup don't bother with huds

As Daveshoelace says, HUDs etc just enable people to play more tables whilst reducing their win rates by less than it would by adding each table without a hud. The fish will still lose, regardless of huds, and on each separate table they will lose more money quicker if a good player is now playing 4 tables without a hud rather than 12 with a hud.

Are you going mad? Im not sure mate. I cant answer your question, I dont know. What counts as pro? Probably more non pros use HUDs than Pros though.

Steven will know though thats for sure.

Im pretty sure that Rob would learn a lot from Steven and Steven would speak about all of the issues in great depth. We can even host the show and thus get a lot of promotion around the whole topic. xpost it on 2p2 etc etc.

Thank you. Forgive my ignorance. Therefore would it be correct to say that new and recreational players (or experienced fish) would lose their bankrolls at a slower rate the 90-95%  of pro players did not use online tracking software? ie it was banned

Sorry, Im an online virgin, these many be obvious questions

I have a question.

What's the under/over on Pleno mentioning or posting a link to pokerstrategy again within the next 10 posts?

Okay. What % of PokerStratgey players use HUD's?

A new player would probably lose his money faster on DTD with no huds and no tracking software than on other sites. Assuming a good player is playing solely on DTD at the same time.

Reason being you are reducing the number of tables the latter could play which increases his winrate. So a "good" player playing a maximum of 4tables without huds/tracking software will win more on each table than he would compared to if he was playing 12 tables+ with huds and software. Therefore the "fish/rec" will lose his money faster because of this than if he was playing on other sites where the "good" player would be playing 12+tables

I really like the idea and concept behind it, and preventing collusion, multi accounting, blocking tables, excessive bumhunting is defo a great idea but its a different argument to the HUD/Pokertracker one. But if "Rec/fish" want to play people without these then maybe there is a market for it, even tho its gonna cost them more money longterm.

I don't entirely buy this argument, and have argued with mr mcloughlin about it before. But assuming all HUDs do is allow people to play more tables. Isn't this also a problem for everyone other than the pros and the poker rooms?

I lolled.

Well it does mean more money is being taken out of the poker community, but conversely it means more tables, more liquidity and therefore more new players being introduced- so its just a case of balancing the two, which stars seem to do pretty well.

I will state again. I don't use a hud and don't even have pokertracker etc installed on this pc

Sorry, why would a pro grinder play 12-24 tables then? Im really confused now

Just an example. Player A wins 4bb/100 when 4 tabling without a hud. Without a hud he can 12 table but only wins 1bb/100. Its better for him to 4table here. But with a hud he might win 2bb/100 when 12 tabling. Now its obviously better for him to 12 table.

In basic $$ terms so you can understand in that sense

Without a hud Player might win $20 per hour per table when 4 tabling, if he increases to 8 tables he might win $12 per hour per table, when he increases to 12 tables he might only win $6 per hour per table.

In this example. 4tabling he makes $80 per hour, 8 tabling $96 per hour, 12 tabling $72 per hour. Player should 8 table

Now with a hud he might make $20 still per hour per table when 4 tabling but $13 per table per hour when 8 tabling and $10 per table per hour when 12 tabling.

so 4tabling he makes $80 per hour still, now he makes $104 8 tabling and $120 12 tabling. So he should 12 table


Now as a "rec/fish" 1tabling v the player above. You obviously will lose less to the player when he is 12 tabling than when he is 4 tabling


Obviously the "good" player above isn't the type you are trying to attract with this venture anyway so that works in the "recs" favour, just theoretically they will lose their money quicker in the above scenario.

Lol at yourselves you obviously have no idea how one of the biggest and influential, if not THE biggest and influential poker sites work.

Pretty sad really!

I was actively trying to discuss but its just the same stuff around here.

If you're a rec player looking for a fun game, playing against a load of grinders playing 11/8 may not be that bad for your winrate as playing against five, one-tabling, super-focused, 'Newcastle just won so I'm content', Plenos, who can soul-read you before you've even seen your cards, but it's surely a lot less fun.

Poker is supposed to be fun. That's why there are more people playing Facebook poker than on Stars.

Yes I agree, and that's the aspect that makes sense and how it should be marketed, particularly with a small and loyal player base. Just saying the whole "Huds are costing me money when I play" argument is a myth

This is great feedback actually. Can someone answer this?

I think the detailed discussion of the relevance of HUDs and training sites, misses the main point of why this initiative is, potentially, going to achieve it's aims.
It is simply this.


Lots of players don't feel comfortable playing in nameless games, against people they don't know at all, who they think may be taking advantage of them by technology, or other means.
It doesn't matter if you think that some of their discomfort is unfounded, or irrational, that is just how some players feel.

It's not rocket science to recognise this, and Rob isn't the first person to try and do somethig about it (anonymous tables, ability to change SN, no regs tables etc...), but I think his ideas are pretty solid, and have a fair to better chance of being relatively successful.

for full transparency and because thread went the other way.

I would just like to say I think Rob is great, he is a breath of fresh air and if only 1% of the industry followed him in the way he trys to at least make a difference it would be a very very good thing. He is brave and stands up for what he believes in, HUGE respect in that regard.

Regarding pokertracker etc, I really dont see stars or the other sites ever changing. Pokertracker are actually the official sponsor for the EPT this year lol.

Simon is someone messing about with your forum account? People keep answering the questions you ask, here is the most recent one:

Couldn't agree more. As I said its a great concept and idea but just pointing out the hud stuff is basically irrelevant to it all, other than peoples misconceptions of how it works etc.

Yes +1 from me btw, I am also keen to encourage the sentiment behind this concept, just also want to point out HUDs are not the villains people think they are.

As someone that stopped playing online for two reasons

a, I knew I was getting left behind because I wouldn't/couldn't put the work in

b, when i did play, I felt(my perception anyway) that whenever I was in a tricky pot and loads of time was being taken by the other player, he was referring to HUD stats.

I don't mind being soul read by better players, but when its some geek just reading numbers and not making his own decisions that was time to call it a day.

As I said perception is the key, and for all the new kids coming in I wonder how many of the old school guys, now as old as 30/40(!) like my group of mates who all used to play 20 hours a week, don't bother any more for the same reason?

Might even sign up myself.

100%!!


he probably looked, then realised he didnt have enough sample then had no idea how you had actually been playing and made a bad decision! heh.

But if this is the perception of HUDs from the recreational guys out there IM DELIGHTED that the topic has arised.

If its putting you off poker then it shouldnt! Seriously. It really isnt the demon you imagine and the guys will not be able to have a significant edge over you. As I said previoulsy if your playing less tables without a HUD you will have an advantage over the mass tabling guys.

Pleno1 is actually a gimmick account I created so I could spam PokerStrategy stuff. He isn't a real person, I got the pictures of him from a One Direction tribute act.

Anything that gets more people logged in and depositing is absolutely marvellous news for the poker pros economy.

Pleno never looks in the rail

what about reddog ever making a meaninful post in a serious thread? 100-1
what about reddog ever making a non meaninful post as a moderator on a serious thread? 1-100

Pleno actually taking time to discuss and providing links and discussion for a forum to help a debate? 1-100

The majority of my posts in this thread have been regarding HUDs and not about pokerstrsategy, the pokerstrategy posts were super relevant at the time.

At the minute it seems like a HUD's are been made into a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with online poker.  As someone who doesn't really play cash games (and don't really know to what extent cash game regs are using HUD's), can somebody explain why if HUD's are such a big offender in terms of reg's winrates etc, then why do live cash regs report much larger returns (bb/100) than online regs?

As I've said in a couple of places discussing this article it feels like what Rob is actually missing is the poker economy from 10 years ago. I agree with tomsom87 - I don't think it's HUDs that are primarily to blame for the way things have changed.

Then they glued me to a yak.

I have never played online cash games for all the reasons Rob and Trumper have said, the thought of HUDs, tracking software etc makes me feel a bit sick as its just a form of 'cheating', ive been playing poker for the last 5 years and have known about these devices for many years and chose not to play, im sure that many new players in this industry who feel the same and therefore chose not to play - hence contributing to the decline in this industry!!!!

I love the idea of the DTD club cash games online with people who aren't anonymous playing against you and the ban of all types of 'cheating' software can only be a good thing!!  I have signed up to this and have played cash games for the past two days and thoroughly enjoyed it!!  Isnt that what this business should be about!!!

I fear this will never catch on with the big operators though because they have a lot of pro's and grinders who clearly make a lot of money from their activities.  I would suggest that these types of players are actually bad for the long term survival of the industry - like leaches they will suck the industry dry eventually!!!

having reread this thread, I think what everyone agrees on is that;

a. some people believe that HUD's are an advantage and dont want to play against players who use them

2. some people believe they are not an advantage, in fact, playing more tables with tracking software could actually be less profitable in some players cases

Therefore, logic dictates that the case for banning tracking software is overwhelming as there is no upside for any parties in allowing racking software or HUD's - as far as I can see, no one actually benefits from tracking software, whether that be the  site, recreational or new players and even professional players.

Everyone wins by banning tracking software/HUD's it looks like to me.

Cheers Simon

For this I thank Rob and Simon so so so so much.

If I were you I would feel very very similar about the issues Im sure, but without knowing how they actually work and how the guys are actually using them and the actual advantage that they have over you by using a HUD you are of course going to think like this.

This thread really calls for Steve Mcloughlin. Let me organise something with Steve and Rob where they can discuss backwards and forwards about pros and cons regarding HUDs and let the experts educate you regarding it.

Its so sad to see so many people being put off online poker without known the real reasons how the things are working. That to me is extremely scary.

Dubai's contention that fish will lose less against the multi-tabling reg than the super-focused reg is convenient for the argument but not true as it isn't the whole picture. If the 4 tabling reg wins 4bb/100 and the 12 tabling reg wins 1bb/100 then it stands to reason you'd want to play the 12 tabling reg, but that fails to take account of the fact there are 3 times as many of them. If you're on a 6max table with one 4bb/100 proshark, you and 5 of your recfish mates have to pay his wages, so you pay 0.8/100 each. If instead you are on a table with 3x 1bb/100 multiregs you only have to pay 3bb/100 in wages, but you only have 2 recfish mates to share the burden, so you each pay 1bb/100. Not drastic, but if you take account of the rakehole (roughly 40bb/100 at 100nl) then in scenario 1 you each pay 44/5 = 8.8bb/100 while in scenario 2 you each pay 43/3 = 14.33bb/100, a 63% increase.

To get a true picture you have to look at a macro level, not just what happens on 1 table. The whole enterprise is funded by losing players (or more accurately, players losing), they are the numerator. Mass multi-tabling adds more reg-clones and more rakeholes, they are the denominator. HUDs and such like only increase the denominator, therefore fish have to pay more and they're bad for "the poker ecology". They aren't bad for the sites though, not even in the long term, and obviously they aren't bad for any individual pro that uses them or they would just stop using them, so I can't see any impetus for change happening in the future except government regulation. This development by DTD won't change the landscape imo, but it will provide players with a choice, which has to be a good thing.

That doesn't really follow.

If the pro is forced to play less tables then the ratio of recs to pros improve.

By your own maths a pro playing less tables without a HUD makes less cash than one playing more tables with a HUD.  So overall each pro makes less money, so if each pro is making less money then it can't be the case that recs are losing money more quickly.  The recs must lose less money in those circumstances and that will be down to a healthier rec/pro ratio.

I think the reality will be that the pros will still have tables on the side other than the DTD cash tables, so he isn't going to be producing much better win rates than he does with a HUD anyway.  And I think some of the newer players who have done most of their improving with a HUD in place are going to find it harder to adapt than someone like you who doesn't use one, or someone like me who has done a lot of playing without one.

I don't think it is entirely clear whose argument will win, but I don't think anybody can be clearcut on this, and I really hope it succeeds.  Don't know what you can do about the multiaccounters and data miners though.  I mean just because you have a picture of somebody up on your screen it doesn't mean you are playing him.

FWIW My PC broke a couple of months ago, and I haven't reinstalled the HUD yet.  A bit lol sample size, but profits fell [ ]

One of the main reasons people use HUDs is to just track their results. Its hard to know how much you have exactly won or lost or to prove this to somebody.

Lets say somebody in America wants to pay tax on their winnings. What they do is show screenshots of holdem manager and show how much they have won and then declare tax. Without holdem manager this wouldnt be possible.

When people want staked they have to show a sample of hands to somebody, this would be impossible without holdem manager.

When people have lost 1000 dollars at nl50 and they dont know why they can check if they are running bad or playing bad. This wouldnt be possible without holdem manager.

snap

Pretty sure the IRS isn't going to accept screenshots from holdemmanager, they look at the ins and outs from your bank account and nothing else. It's a major reason why so many Americans had so much money online on black Friday.

yep, Yours popped up just as I was posting, welcome back, you almost made an appearance in the whatever happened to.. thread.   Pity you highlighted my typo, I have edited it to "The recs must lose less money in those circumstances.

 ;whistle;

Edit: D'oh, thought you meant the last sentence.

Clearly there is one massive winner in this whole saga and that is the tech companies producing and supplying HUDs and software!! they prob making hundreds of millions of pounds at a guess!!   
Hope this goes viral and every poker operator takes note and bans these types of activities!!!

I've read both of Rob's recent blogs and, to be honest, haven't really figured out what I think of the whole thing as yet.  However, I do have some concerns with some of the things he's suggesting as to how they will work in practice.

There are some elements to the online game that are fundamentally different to the live version, which means that you can't police one in the same way as the other.  In simplest terms, there is absolutely no way of knowing whether you're playing one person, or multiple people crowded around a screen sharing thoughts.  In a live game, turning around to my railers and asking for their thoughts before making a decision is not an option, but there's no way to prevent it happening online (so no point trying to do so).

The whole industry of tracking databases, HUDs, etc developed due to one of these differences - the availability of hand histories from the sites.  These are intended to provide players with some form of security regarding collusion, etc and it'd be fair to say that I wouldn't play on any site that didn't have them.  However, short of restricting the time and nature by which they can be accessed, there's no way to prevent them being utilised for other purposes, such as tracking, etc.

I'm a rec player, and I've been using PT/HEM pretty much from the outset.  The primary purpose of this is simple - it makes keeping records of my play much easier.  This far outweighs any other benefits I derive from them, and is effectively the 'show-stopper' in any argument about banning them from their use, and this is where I'm unclear on where Rob's online games stand.  If you want me to agree not to use a HUD during the session, then fair enough, no problems (although unless you have a way to enforce this, I have no confidence that others won't be saying the same and still using them).  However, if the restriction extends to saying I'm not allowed to download the hand history and import the session into PT as part of the record-keeping exercise, then the chances are I wouldn't sign up to these tables.

The conflict in this is that I 'should' be exactly the type of rec player that Rob is appealing to in these blogs, but I don't necessarily agree with him that all these things are bad things.

As for multi-tabling, one of the main reasons for me doing this is to try and hit the various milestones that the sites have in their VIP schemes (e.g. Supernova, Gold, Silver, Bronze, etc), or to clear deposit bonuses when they arise.  At very low stakes, it's virtually impossible to get anywhere in this respect without multi-tabling and the alternative is to play higher stakes and potentially outside your bankroll if there's a short-term target to be achieved.  Rush/Zoom tables have helped with this, but even for the rec player, volume of hands becomes a relevant factor at times.  There's a cost to doing this, as playing multiple tables naturally worrsens my game on each one, but if the ultimate target is a +EV proposition (e.g a bonus) then it often makes sense to do this.

This is no different, in essence, to chasing promo bonuses on online casinos using autoplay on blackjack (which used to be possible in c2005, but probably isn't nowadays).  The game itself is -EV, but provided the bonus outweighed this, then it was a great way to bankroll build with little effort at the time.

In short, not all tracking and multi-tabling activity is done by the so-called online pros, which is why I find myself 'stuck in the middle of the argument' when reading Rob's thoughts on this.

HUD's and tracking software are two very different things.

Re:HUD's

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that a HUD will show you an opponents mucked cards.

This is a definite edge for me, knowing what a guy has called you down with gives you a massive indication of how good they are and what their style is.

Regarding other stats, VPIP, %3bet, %cbet, etc .... I don't feel this gives me any sort of an edge that a 1 tabling rec can get from simply watching the action at their table.

Re: Tracking Software

Tracking software is an invaluable tool for anyone trying to improve their game, I play 6 max PLO cash and was a losing player for at least the first 9 months.  Reviewing hands, learning %'s in different situations, working out where I was losing money would have been a lot harder without access to the information Holdem manager provides.

Let's not fall into the trap of being binary on this. It's not HUDs are evil or HUDs are fine. It's a hell of a leap of logic to say that HUDs don't help good players play or get better through using them when they are learning. Even if that's just positive reinforcement of the correct decisions. And the fact that most people don't use them properly is irrelevant (same as it is with training sites) because those are the recs we're talking about anyway!

HUDs arguably turn the game into something different (tables full of rakeback grinders) and that's arguably just as big a problem for the image of poker.

I'm not a hater of HUDs or training sites by any means. Simply trying to give some more texture to the argument.

Could you please give a well reasoned explanation of why you think this is the case?  How are regs using HUD's to gain such a massive edge over recreational players?  Do you feel that reg's have less of an edge in an evironment where HUD's are not in play?

Perhaps I used the wrong wording. It is revolutionary in that it has never been done before, but as Keys said it isn't going to change the landscape of poker in any way imo. On the other hand, giving players the choice of playing your new tables can't be a bad thing.


Dubai has already illustrated that they can be good for regs by allowing them to win more $$ per hour, even if their win-rate per table is reduced. The site will benefit from the increased rake of them playing more tables, and regs playing more tables means that more tables/SNGs get started which again = more rake. Although as Keys wrote there are other variables to consider that make this whole picture more complicated.

HUDs are properly used and designed for beating OTHER REGS not recs.

Great post. And agreed there is no real impetus for change. They are definitely good for the sites.

Problem with this argument about HUD's and tracking software is that one side of the argument has never really seen/used them, and don't get me wrong I understand exactly why people are skeptical about them but for the most part people have vastly the wrong end of the stick about it.

Please Note: I'm not defending HUD's and tracking software because I make lots of money from them and want to continue doing so, I'm trying to add balance to the argument - my personal preference would be for them not to exist - as I explained in my post on the other thread


People seem to be under the impression that players using HUD's and TS (tracking software) are gaining a Zen-Like advantage and can almost see the recreational guys hole cards, this just isn't true, all it does is provide you with INFORMATION, and it's up to the player to specifically to be able to process it, and if I'm totally honest i'd say 90% of the people who use TS don't have the knowledge to really use 80-90% of the information they have aqquired, I certainly fall into that category.

Here is a screenshot of my HUD in action.

(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/lildavefish/HUD1_zps885ae69c.png)

I have it set so it's barely visible unless I run my mouse over it (so i'm not even actually looking at it 80%+ of the time) as you can see when I run my mouse over it it displays like this;

Name and number of hands I've played with the player, 8,100 in this instance.
VP 18 PR 14 3b 7
This means he voluntarily plays 18% of hands, he raises pre-flop 14% of the time and he 3bets 7% of the time.

Basically for 6max plo this tells me he is VERY tight, so what do I do with this information, I fold to his opens more pre-flop, and I don't 3bet him with hands I would do against loser players. This information is not spectacular by any means and tbh I don't even need a HUD to tell me that.

54/46/62

These numbers mean he C-bets 54% as the PF raiser, he folds to C-bets vs the pre-flop raiser 46% of the time and in 3bet+ pots he C-bets 62% of the time. This is quite low (I use myself as a benchmark lol) so as result I raise less of his flop c-bets and bet IP when he checks a little less (he is chk-calling more as is isn't betting as often) so I'll take completely random stabs after he's checked less than vs players with a HIGHER C-Bet %.

2/2/1
This is his factor of aggression by streets - basically the ratio of time he takes an aggressive action to a passive one, this basically tells me he is quite tight, as a result when he bets 3 times I show it a lot of respect, as I would do to anyone  who is tight like he is.

So, 8,100 hands of data, $150 investment and a huge amount of tilt setting the software up and what have aI learnt about this regular player?
He is tight Pre-flop.
He Doesn't bet the flop as often as others
He Isn't prone to barreling off or late-street aggression

There is nothing here I wouldn't be able to have learnt in 3 sessions playing 1 or 2 tables with him.

Now this is a regular player I play all the time with, spose it was a recreational player with 250 hands, the stats would be almost useless (the VP/PR/3b stats would be useful for spotting if the were particulally high, for e.g if its like 76 / 44/ 18 then I know he's a bit mental, if its 76/4/1 then I know he's very passive etc but again, NOTHING i wouldn't have learnt from 20mins watching his play on 1 table)

When I say I barely even look at my HUD i'm not lying, and I wouldn't be surprised if 75% of the population who own them use them less than me, true enough though, at least once or twice a session I make a play specifically based on the information of my HUD which is where it pays for itself really. Watching gameflow, reading the dynamic is infinitely better than anything a HUD can give you.

Another example of double-edged sword of the TS... the other day I was out for dinner with a friend of mine who plays the same games and we were chatting about another regular (I know, dullards!) and we both felt like we had drastically different statistics on him (I mean drastically) next day we had a look and realised my stats on him were 34/28/13 and Dave's were 26/18/7 - Intruiged I pulled up all the 15k hands I'd played with him, looked at hands THIS year and compared to last years and realized last year he was playing the crazy 13% 3b and this year he's been very tight, so I must have played mostly with him last year and Dave mostly this year. Either a drastic change in style, someone else playing on his account IDK - had I not realised this during an idle dinner time conversation the info on my HUD might have led me to some drastically bad plays, but the fact that I have the information stored on my computer allowed me to solve the problem pretty conclusively.

before anyone starts worrying that the cut-throat regular online pro's are dissecting your turn betting frequencies over a bottle of Shiraz at dinner, this type of analysis is only possible with a large sample of hands, 700 hands even isn't even close to enough - 200 hands of blind tilt, or 200 hands of watching breaking bad in the background and not paying attention will throw the figures way, way off

So the question, Why do people buy this software if it's not really that much use to them?

1) Once in a while it's VERY useful - and at $150 an 2 hours work it only has to be useful a few times in the first month to be worth the money.

2) Other regular players are using it, some are VERY good with the information and like it or not you do really need it to try pull back some of the edge they are gaining over you.

3) We all convince ourselves we're going to learn how to use it, and become huge sharks with all the figures, hardly anyone does this (certainly not me)

4) THIS IS FAR AND AWAY IT'S PRIMARY USE FOR EVERYONE WHO OWNS IT

(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/lildavefish/HUD2_zpsc3203eb6.png)

(http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad171/lildavefish/HUD3_zps78d61a09.png)

TO TRACK YOUR OWN RESULTS Yes, you could just look at your account balance before and after but its WAY more fun to have graphs, pretty colors, and the AdjEV (adjusted EV, how your winnings would look without the all in pots, if you have 60% equity in a 1k pot you get 600 back) stat which shows how "lucky" or "unlucky" you have been.

Few closing points

1. Tracking software is again more of a reg vs reg battling tool, not a weapon that is used to skin recreational players

2. There is no magic to it, it simply provides info you have to have the knowledge to read and interpret

3. Most of the information would be readily obvious playing 1 table and REALLY concentrating

Like I said I'd love there to be no HUD's (I love making graphs though!!) but the incentives Rob is purposing, if successful, will hopefully put an end to some much, much wider and more pressing issues than the use of HUD's and TS, so it's really frustrating watching the argument get sidetracked onto HUD's at every step, as it would be DISASTROUS if this issue were to hinder the progress these initiatives could make if we work and support the DTD online games.

If you were at the table, with or without a HUD you can see what your opponent call/mucked with by looking at the hand history, it's usually in the top left hand of the table and its very obviously marked so it's defo not a sharky trick that only the regs know.

I've heard this argument a lot. It makes a MASSIVE assumption that people are willing or even capable of doing this. It's bollocks really. How can something that collects information perfectly not be an advantage?


I do agree with this. It's a side issue. But it's interrelated with lots of other issues so it can't just be ignored.

I know this now .... but had no idea before I used a HUD.

Most of my friends play poker and are good rec players. None of them knew that.

It's also very difficult to check after every single hand ....

Targeting pro's and hud users is kinda rough. What next? You wont be allowed to run equity calculations or excel sheets looking for breakeven points? You get out what you put in, some people work harder. Poker especially ring NLH is not a recreational-freindly card-game anymore, luckily most rec's dont realise this yet.  Poker has been dying for years, banning huds wont help recreation players loss-rates, will just mean the pro will put in more effort elsewhere to achieve that edge.

My main concern still is that cheating/colluding/superusing has always been found via hand histories (by the players themselves, i dont trust any site beyond stars anymore). You stop allowing hand histories, you get criminal activity. Banning huds online would also be pretty much impossible, screen-sweeping software is so good nowadays some programmer would have one out within a month of launch.

Yeh. The reason I really don't want to see the debate hung up over HUD's and Tracking software is that it will, IMO be totally impossible/impractical to ban them, the results of trying will be certain regulars will just work harder on getting round the system, and some will come up with a way (some v smart guys out there) and now you're providing a big incentive because if all of a sudden you (a reg) can have TS and no-one else can that is a HUGE edge, whereas as things stand that is largely negated.

Multi-accounting, bumhunting, table-blocking, buttoning and all the nonsense that comes with those things is what we need to stamp out, and what a scheme like Rob's could lead the way to improving, if we can achieve that then with or with HUD#s and TS online poker would be a far, far, FAR more welcoming and enjoyable environment for everyone - not just the recreational players either, I'd love to be able to play and not have to deal with all that bullshit EVERY DAY.

Really disagree here. One of the main problems with 1 tabling is you get paranoid.

FFSSSSSSS this skandi keeps 3betting me. Put stubborn hat on and not fold to him anymore etc.

So often I see people typing in chat box

"you are so fkn crazy"
"mr bluffer"
"bluffing again"
"you never bluff"
"obviously got it you havent played a hand all night"

Whenever I search these guys they are ALWAYS one tabling. Its a really really common thing.

If somebody isnt capable of realizing somebody is overly aggresive when they are 1 tabling then they will never ever win at poker anyway and the advantage that the reg currently holds with the HUD doesnt matter. The main point we are talking about is non drooler recs vs regs and the non droolers definitely notice things when 1 tabling. Its their night of fun, they have their glasses on, their hoody on and they are one tabling the night away.

You disagree with me?

It collects information PERFECTLY yes, but it doesn't collect PERFECT information. As proved in the example I gave of myself and my friend both with 12-15,000 hand samples on the same player and DRASTICALLY different information, obviously a very extreme case, but the point stands. PERFECT information is gethered by you sat there, watching you man play, and is really only available (or close to) in live poker.

yes and rugby is shit!

Ok, a few quick caveats to my post,
First, I'm a professional Poker Journalist, and I've been playing poker for longer than I care to remember. Second, I've used a HuD ever since I took online poker even remotely seriously.

HuDs are a valuable tool for every player, regardless of how seriously they take poker, but they do not impact individual hands, or the outcome of those hands in any significant way. I know that sounds like a contradiction, but I'll try to explain.
All of the information a HuD collects while you play is information that is available to you already. A player at a live cash game will already have a very good idea about who is raising pots, and who is open limping. You get to know the table as you play, and you may play against the same players week in and week out, so you should have a better understanding of their game. That's what the HuD does online, it captures that information. Where a HuD really comes into it's own is to allow a player to sit at more tables, and not be at a serious disadvantage against the player who is sitting at only one. If anyone here has ever tried to multitable without a HuD, you know what I'm talking about, it's close to impossible to do it and stay as a winning player (some people I know can do it with 4 tables, but they are freaks).
People have been talking about sample sizes, and they are right to do so. For the length of most recreational players sessions, they are going to play maybe 1-200 hands at a single table tops. From that, you can only really take into consideration PFR (Pre Flop Raise) VPiP (Voluntary Put in Pot) and maybe 3 bet %. Any half decent player is going to have that information for a table playing the same amount of hands live. Given the size of most online player pools, you may never see most of these players again at your table, especially if you are only playing 1 at a time. HuDs have a very limited impact on any single hand.
Where a HuD really comes into it's own is away from the table. When you review your game (and any good grinder is going to spend a lot of time analysing their game) the statistics from a HuD can show you where you are losing money. Do you 3 bet light too often? Do you call out of position in three bet pots too often? Are you folding too often to aggressive players? This tool can really help analyse a players game, and the only information it uses is freely available Hand Histories.

The only thing a banning of HuDs would really cause is a drop in volume for players, and grinders having to play at a higher level to make rent. Volume is where the money is in this game, for both the player, and the operator. This actually hurts recreational players. It's going to be really hard to find a $0.01/$0.02 game on some sites, because all of the Russian multi table grinders are gone. The backbone of the online market is still the grinder, they hold open the games. the flesh however is the recreational players, who attach to that backbone.

Players who don't understand HuDs are understandably scared of them, but they really aren't the bad part of online poker. Collusion, poor operators, and unsustainable rake are all much more important, but because they aren't discusser out in the open, they get a lot less press.

There are issues with the market, but HuDs are not part of the problem.

I do agree with this. It's a side issue. But it's interrelated with lots of other issues so it can't just be ignored.
[/quote]

I really think it can be, it's honestly so irrelevant the to greater picture, it's just the perception of it that is damaging, so if banning HUD's is the only way around it then I'd be all for it, as I said before, in a perfectly selfish way I believe I'd make more money with no HUD's for anyone than everyone having a HUD.

Problem is for all the online regs (and this is why you'll see a rush to oppose plans to ban it globally) if 4% of the Regular player pool find a way round the software bans, its the other regular players who are getting done, not the Recreational players.

Welcome to the forum, I hope this is Matt!

This is an excellent post.

This is all a lot of arguing over degrees of advantage.

You have an advantage from having a HUD, everyone has accepted that, people are wasting a lot of time arguing about how much.
Pros make more money overall 12 tabling with a HUD than they would 2 tabling without one.
If pros make less money, recs lose less money.  
Recs losing less money, or losing it more slowly, is what Rob is trying to achieve.

This is the absolute crux of it, If there is a flaw in this argument then nobody has pointed it out yet.

+1

Just saw how many typos are in that... *Hangs head in shame*

And Pleno, it's not Matt. Some people may recognise my username, but I'm trying to fly under the radar if I can...

Finally. Very succinct.

A great example of some of the points illustrated by Dave and others is in my video I made the other night.

I recorded myself playing one table of a tournament and gained a huge advantage NOT from my HUD, but from just playing one tabling and really watching everything that was happening, seeing every showdown, and being really aware of how everyone was playing.

It enabled me to take notes and make adjustments that I never would have been able to do whilst multitabling with a HUD.

A great example is a hand where a player made a small raise out of a 13bb stack in middle position. I had ATo in the big blind. According to my hud, he was playing 10/8 or something very tight (meaning he only raises preflop 8% of the time). And based on that, and the fact that generally people don't raise/fold out of this stack, and that when they make a small raise instead of jamming, they often have a VERY strong hand - I would definitely just fold.

But since I'd been watching the table and seen him raise/fold from this stack before in the same spot, I decided to shove instead of folding and he folded and I picked up a pot that I never would have been able to do if multitabling and just relying on my HUD.

This is a perfect example of where a "rec" playing one table and concentrating actually has an advantage over a reg multitabling with a HUD.

Watching and focussing on one table will provide you with all the information a HUD can, and heaps more.

Before anyone retorts with the "well if you don't make money from it why do you use it?", I'll repeat what others have said - it enables me to play more tables and recognise player types instantly without having to focus on just one table. I can be in a close spot with AJ and have half a second to make a decision, I can't remember everyones names, I have a quick look at his HUD, see he's playing 60/45 (mental!) and make my decision to go with my AJ.

They are mainly useful for picking up on other regs tendencies. You don't pick up enough hands on recs to be able to pick apart their game like people have alluded to. You simply can see how tight/loose they are, or how often they raise preflop as opposed to calling - again, nothing you couldn't pick up from playing 2 tables without a HUD.  

Doobs is right though with his summary, and banning HUDs is definitely going to be good for the recreational player, pros will win less, recs will lose less.

Myself, Dave and others are not arguing with that, we are trying to change people's perception about what sort of advantages are actually gained from the HUD, and why we use it.

The discussion about HUD's makes for an interesting read, but this is starting to cloud the main point of the blogs.

Rob has stated that he is falling out of live with the poker industry.  From all the responses, it would appear that no one wants to see that happen.

He has stated that he believes wholeheartedly in the new club cash tables and the benefits that they could bring to providing recreational players with a safe, trustworthy environment for them to play a bit of cash poker once or twice a week without feeling they are sat in a shark infested tank.

Those that use HUD's and are saying they make little difference.  No problem with that view, these tables won't let you use HUD's, but as you say, no real advantage anyway, so play poker and support what Rob is trying to achieve.

Those recreational players that have been put off by playing online cash because of the perceived unfair playing field, up against all those regular players with thier HUD's and hand databases, no problem either.  These tables ban HUD's and you can play as little or as much cash poker you like at all levels knowing you are winning or losing based on the ability of yourself and the others at the table (And soon you will know exactly who they are), and of course the luck of the cards.

I can understand regular players that make a decent living from online poker not perhaps switching their entire bankroll over the DTD and exclusviely playing on there, but for recreational players that are making a choice about where to play their poker, these Club Cash Tables have got to be a really strong USP, and everyone should do their bit to ensure the message heard by as many players as possible.

I can't see a reason why any player would not register and play one night a week, once a fortnight, or arrange with a bunch of mates to play some online cash once a month.  It's a small ask in my opinion, and the UK poker scene would be less favourable without these guys running DTD and pushing the boundaries.

the stakes recs are allowed to play at is the biggest protection they have (hence party being capped at 1knl ring). Pros making more money is not a direct relation to recs losing less. Winrates are small in 2013, bonuses and rakeback are a huge factor.

Not as shit as Newcastle United :)

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here, but let's not sidetrack this debate further.

This is all a lot of arguing over degrees of advantage.

You have an advantage from having a HUD, everyone has accepted that, people are wasting a lot of time arguing about how much.
Pros make more money overall 12 tabling with a HUD than they would 2 tabling without one.
If pros make less money, recs lose less money.  
Recs losing less money, or losing it more slowly, is what Rob is trying to achieve.

This is the absolute crux of it, If there is a flaw in this argument then nobody has pointed it out yet.
[/quote]

Not going to argue against a good player playing 12 tables with at 50NL is more likely to make more money than a player without a HuD playing only 2 tables at the same limits. But a pro isn't going to play those limits with only 2 tables as an option, and is going to  move up as far as they can in order to make the same profit playing less tables.  That's 10 tables less at 50nl, and a lot of sites can't support that.

Also, why is there a serious argument against about pros beating recreational players? You wouldn't be complaining about a premiership team beating on from your local Sunday league. Better players are going to win more money, that's the way the game works. By artificially "protecting" rec players in the way suggested, you are both doing them a disservice, as well as ruining a game where the main advantage is still skill.
Rec players are never going to get better if they aren't challenged, and a game where you are not challenged loses it's appeal really quickly. A good example is some computer games where players get bored really quickly, and never play again. Poker doesn't have that, because there are no artificial barriers, the only barrier to getting better is your own skill and the time you put in.

Please don't turn online poker into easy mode. It's a jungle out there, and I for one think the evolution of the game needs that to stay.

Poker journalist? Story checks out.

HUDs aren't the problem that people make out.  Its an issue that is way blown out of proportion.

Sky don't allow HUDs or tracking software.  Someone actually created a working HUD and within a few days they moved and did a very simple thing (on the face of it, I'm sure it was a bit more complex to get to work behind the scenes) that stopped it from working.

But you log into Sky peak time and you will still see 4 regs each table all playing between 8/12 tables (despite the fact that everyone goes LOL Sky software I can't 3 table on there).  

This is a case on all limits and a lot of them clearly aren't 'professional' as in they have a normal day job but supplement the income with earning a few hundred a month on the side tax free online.

For DTD cash games to be a success the major thing that it will need to achieve is to find a way to massively incentivise recreational players to play short handed.  

The whole reg/rec/pro debate has just focused mainly on the bad side of the pros in the games but the fact is that pros are needed in the game to start and maintain games.

At say 500nl a rec sits at a brand new table then the table is snap full within a few minutes.  At 50nl at a new table then that a rec sits at by himself and the pros/regs/grinders don't notice because they are already on loads of tables.  The only time a pro/reg will play shorthanded is when they are the ones who start the tables.

The GP promotion is excellent for that as it gives everyone a goal to keep grinding.  In the future to try and maintain and build on this tho DTD need to come up with a promo that will give some long term benefits for playing an 8 handed table at 3/4 players or less.  Once you have 3/4 players always online then it becomes so easy to have active tables that fill.  

Recreational players just don't like waiting around when they want to have a spin, and especially on iPoker where you have the normal cash tables and casino games on top to tempt them away, this is gonna be your biggest hurdle.  Confident that Rob and the team can find a way of meeting the goals outlined in the blog tho!

Also a lot of the issues that arise from online poker is the anonymity of it all.

The fact that DTD are going to integrate real names onto the cash tables, along with the Skype support and potential real life consequences for people who get out of line with their behaviour at the tables is gonna be a far great factor in getting people grinding on there than banning HUDs ever will.

This isn't what he's trying to achieve IMO. Certainly not directly, creating a friendlier and more welcoming environment for recs by ousting the reg players whose shady antics are ruining the online poker scene for everyone.

Setting out with your objective to just stop weaker players losing as much seems very backward.

Nobody gambles at a casino because they think they can beat the games long term. But they at least want the illusion of being able to win and they want it to be fun.

I've long said that viewing poker as gambling and not as a sport is much better viewpoint for the long term health of the game.

It isn't going to be Rob and the team that find a way of meeting the goals outlined in the blog.

This is about players making a choice to support the tables and play a bit.

It's about players getting together and arranging to play a regular cash game once a week online, so tables fill up, and not just doing this because DTD are awarding £60 seats for every £25 raked.

I just don't see much of a downside for recreational players to choose to play on DTD Online.  Throw in the potential of signing up to the DTD Sponsorship Pounds, and it really is a great offering.

Yeh for sure, gambling is gambling some gamblers are better gamblers than others, but a fair and respectful platform to gamble on  is what we should offer.

The point I'm trying to make in regards to HUDs is that the big victims of the ban is going to be the "good" (in terms of behaviour) regular players, and the regulars who behave shadily will have another opportunity to exploit the good guys. Stamping those guys out and rewarding the good behaviour is what will make the improvement in online poker Rob (and all of us) want.

2014 I want DTD cash tables to have video integration so I can watch the tears role down people's faces when I get there.


Down with anonymity, Down with HUDs, Down with the trumpets.

awesome

Trouble is we've all spent years telling everyone that you can win big money at poker, just put some work in and you can win. Skill game! Trouble is we sort of forgot the zero sum game bit. We can all win!*

Casinos get rich by making losers happy. Poker needs to do the same.



*warning only 5% of you will actually win

Pro poker players are like the hot girls who go to nightclubs and sit by the bar drinking water until they get invited over to one of the VIP tables to share some champagne.

The club don't make any money from them, but they need some of them in there so the place is busy when the guys who are going to drop the money turn up.

If the girls started bringing in little machines to help them quickly work out which of the guys had the biggest wallet, so they could immediately pounce upon his table, and drink his champagne as quickly as they can, and brag loudly to the other girls about how they're totally crushing this guy's wallet, then the men are going to start having less fun and may not come back.


Exactly - it's like these nightclubs advertising 'Come here and everyone can drink free champagne'. Won't actually work. [/tortuousanalogy]

One thing seems to have been forgotten from the view of a recreational player (me).

Live cash poker is great fun. Online cash poker is as dull as dishwater.

Let's get the i-poker app sorted and I will happily play all the satties to club comps. This would seem a much better way of increasing revenue. Also turning the club next door into a hotel would make the club busier.

It seems Rob is trying to improve a product that many recs would not play anyway?

I for one hope Rob does not leave in six months as he is always at the forefront of UK poker for ideas.

how is a satalite more fun than cash games for recreational players?

most recs (not all) would rather play a comp than a cash game

very few recs will travel miles for a cash game but we will for a comp

notice how few cash tables fill up at the likes of a blonde Bash or an apat event or sky poker event

look how many recs will try and get a casino too put on a STT instead of a cash game

dont know why but recs prefer comps too cash

i dont know why but i am one of them

This.

I hate online cash. I used to sit at 1-2 tables on Stars and watch everyone fold. Every hand. Boring as shit. Then I'd do a search and they were either hidden or playing 812767812547284 tables.

I saw a post earlier where someone said that if you ban HUDs then off go the Russian nano-grinders. Good riddance IMO, they ruined the low-limit game. Them and 2p2. What a lot of low-limit pros dont realise is that recs want to play 3 streets. They don't want to stick their stack in preflop. All they want to do is see a flop, turn and river. 2p2 and HUDs turned this game into a preflop game and thats why recs would much rather play live or at home with their mates. You go to a low limit live cash game or a pub game in the UK and you get the same thing every hand - 4 or 5 limpers and everybody is happy.

Omaha is not the answer either, because although you see a lot more flops in PLO, recs dont understand that sometimes it is right to fold the nuts. Recs dont fold the nuts on the flop. They have a couple of hands where they stick their money in on the flop with the nuts and lose and they never come back.

I don't know what the answer is. I hope that these cash games will help, but change is needed much deeper down than this.

Gouty didn't say it was.

But he did indicate that playing satellites is more appealing than online cash, a feeling I can understand since the reward for good play running in a satellite is a chance to play in a decent live comp at the best poker club in Europe.

Online cash with no banter and no idea who you are playing is pretty dull. The innovation of knowing who you are playing is a decent move forward, but on the odd occasion (twice) that I've ventured into these rooms so far the chat box has been conspicuously devoid of chat.
This is in contrast to the few Blonde League games I played, and the APAT games.

I'll keep going back, especially when the lower stakes games are running because I want to support Rob and keep him involved with DTD.

Any mtt is more fun for recs as there is a pot of gold at the end of it. If you are working 40 or 50 hours a week and have a wife and kids you might have a few nights a week for poker. Personally I would rather play the big 109 or 55 if I have a night on the sofa or a Sunday major.

This would change if dtd had an app as I would use that cash to qualify for club events. The only cash game I ever play is pissed up PLO which is strictly trying to spin 100 bucks to 1000 bucks after the quiz on a Thursday.

And whoever thinks there is very little advantage in HUD is off their rocker. I got 18th in the million a couple of years ago and had 5 A4 pages of notes. Then get moved tables and it's start all over again.

If I played cash or mtts for a living, or attempted to make a living from it would be more accurate, I would not hesitate to learn to use it. I think many of you think recs would play more cash if there was no HUD but that is incorrect. We like tourneys or spinning up cash hit n run style.

Going back to the thread title. I had one of my best nights of poker ever with him and he doesn't even know who I am I wouldn't think. Note I said best nights not profitable nights. In fact I dropped a couple of buy ins.

1/2 PLO with my two best poker mates and Rob,Marcel Luske, Karl Marenho...,and his mates. What a laugh watching great hold em players getting it sick and coming out on top. Played a great hand against Marco. Some guy punched someone on the other table and had to go.  Nice ice cold Fosters. It was a great night for me and all because Rob made the effort to play a game we could afford.

A total class act. Come on Rob. See what the app is like before you jump. All my mates only play on I-pads and one of them binked over 80k in the warm up on one right through whilst sat in the casino. I am sure it will make the world of difference.

I would play more online with you for sure.

Agree with what others have said, I'd be more willing to give the cash tables online a go if the iPad/iPhone app was available.

I would say it is due to the stop loss as each player knows the maximum he can lose and therefore feels more comfortable playing the way they want when they have bought-in.  Also, there is the carrot of a larger prize on offer.  Many will have started playing online through STTs and understand the format (a bit).

Cash is not fun , u can loose lots n lots n lots of £££££$$$$$€€€€€€

Sign up anyway please sir! You'd only play online on a tablet?

I know a fair few people who only have tablets. Could be one of those?

of course, just wondered. Wasn't criticising.

An i-poker app/i-pad client would be wonderful news!

It already exists, but only a couple of sites at the minute
http://poker.bet365.com/extra/en/promotions/mobile-poker/

The mobile client is out on bet365 & one other operator at the moment - it only supports cashgames -
once we get a date to go live on DTD you guys will be the first to know however i suspect tournament tables will be later next year.

Interesting. I always assumed that you preferredmcash games mainly because of the time reasons.

The title of this thread does not match 90% of the contents. Should the thread be renamed 'The pro's and cons of HUDs', and perhaps start a new thread regarding Robs recent blogs? I would comment on here but it will be lost in a sea of 'blah hud, blah tracker' stuff. I stopped reading half way.

You must have an opinion though?

Very much this

Agree with blue ace, thread seems to have gone off point, interesting debate though. As a general view, can't help feeling the cost of the shortfall on the ISPT must be a significant factor. The exposure this brought hasn't kick started the online site in the way I'd imagine it was hoped

i found the HUD debate very interesting
for drooling and non droolling recs or any one who doesn't use a HUD
or doesn't normally visit diary section
worth visiting posh boys diary for videos of Huds in action in MTT

Thread certainly seems to have leaped into life since the HUD discussion stopped