Rob Yong and DTD..Your views

[AdamM]

Think this will get me back on DTD online to be honest.
I tried getting HEM2 last year to 'join the game' and it just left me feeling stupid, and missing a trick.

Love the idea of playing against people not using HUDs.

I'm mainly a MTT player, but will probably be more inclined to play named DTD cash tables.

[AlunB]

The value/advantage of HUDs is vastly overrated. The biggest benefit of tracking software is away from the table, reviewing previous hands and your own leaks etc. Tracking software and HUDs should be separate debates.

HUDs do not, as such, give a player an advantage. If you get two equally skilled players both playing one table only, the player not using the HUD will have the edge because they are actually using the supercomputer that is their brain to make decisions. A one tabling player who uses a HUD is doing themselves a disservice and will probably misuse it.

The more tables a player plays, the lower their earn rate will be at each table. A player who makes $4 an hour at one table might only make $1 an hour on each of the six tables they are playing, but overall they earn more. A HUD does not give them an advantage as much as reduces the disadvantage they create for themselves by multi tabling. For that reason, any recreational player at the table of a pro with a HUD actually benefits in that they are playing against the $1 per hour version of them rather than the $4 per hour. Of course without a HUD but across as many tables they might be playing against a $0.50 per hour version or even a losing version, but then they probably wouldn't be multi tabling in that instance.

So in a world with HUDs, as a recreational player you face more but significantly diluted pros, in a world without them you face less pros but lose a lot more in one sitting when you do. Everyone loses slower because of HUDs, which isn't a bad thing for someone who is a losing player either way.
 
Another important point is a HUD is only as good as the person that uses it. A good player will be able to make the most of the information, a bad player will use it as a crutch and not be able to make decisions for themselves (and as such, will be terrible when they play live).

HUDs are great for the poker rooms themselves, but they rarely admit it, because they obviously allow more rake to be generated by multi tabling. I recently heard that the average six max table online has 4.5 players at it, to give you an indication how significant multi-tabling is. I also recently heard that 1 in 6 online players uses a HUD. No idea what % the pros are, but I would guess high 90s.

I should say that the one big negative about HUDs, for me, is that while I dont think they are bad, I dont think there is any way they cant not sound bad to a new player. Its very hard to explain the pros and cons of a HUD to an experienced player, so for a newbie it would sound very much like its out and out cheating and there isnt much of a way around that.

Excellent post.

Training sites far more damaging to the poker economy/ecology than HUDs ever are or were. HUDs and tracking software are more a tool for accelerated learning than anything else.

[DaveShoelace]

The value/advantage of HUDs is vastly overrated. The biggest benefit of tracking software is away from the table, reviewing previous hands and your own leaks etc. Tracking software and HUDs should be separate debates.

HUDs do not, as such, give a player an advantage. If you get two equally skilled players both playing one table only, the player not using the HUD will have the edge because they are actually using the supercomputer that is their brain to make decisions. A one tabling player who uses a HUD is doing themselves a disservice and will probably misuse it.

The more tables a player plays, the lower their earn rate will be at each table. A player who makes $4 an hour at one table might only make $1 an hour on each of the six tables they are playing, but overall they earn more. A HUD does not give them an advantage as much as reduces the disadvantage they create for themselves by multi tabling. For that reason, any recreational player at the table of a pro with a HUD actually benefits in that they are playing against the $1 per hour version of them rather than the $4 per hour. Of course without a HUD but across as many tables they might be playing against a $0.50 per hour version or even a losing version, but then they probably wouldn't be multi tabling in that instance.

So in a world with HUDs, as a recreational player you face more but significantly diluted pros, in a world without them you face less pros but lose a lot more in one sitting when you do. Everyone loses slower because of HUDs, which isn't a bad thing for someone who is a losing player either way.
 
Another important point is a HUD is only as good as the person that uses it. A good player will be able to make the most of the information, a bad player will use it as a crutch and not be able to make decisions for themselves (and as such, will be terrible when they play live).

HUDs are great for the poker rooms themselves, but they rarely admit it, because they obviously allow more rake to be generated by multi tabling. I recently heard that the average six max table online has 4.5 players at it, to give you an indication how significant multi-tabling is. I also recently heard that 1 in 6 online players uses a HUD. No idea what % the pros are, but I would guess high 90s.

I should say that the one big negative about HUDs, for me, is that while I dont think they are bad, I dont think there is any way they cant not sound bad to a new player. Its very hard to explain the pros and cons of a HUD to an experienced player, so for a newbie it would sound very much like its out and out cheating and there isnt much of a way around that.

Excellent post.

Training sites far more damaging to the poker economy/ecology than HUDs ever are or were. HUDs and tracking software are more a tool for accelerated learning than anything else.

Thanks

If we are calling out training sites, I think hand analysis sub boards on poker forums are a bigger culprit. Thousands more people use them and imo its a more accelrated way to learn than training videos for most people. I think 2+2 has contributed more to this than all the training sites put together.

Not against either by the way, just saying.

[AlunB]

Quite probably/possibly. But it's hard to argue based on anecdotal evidence there hasn't been a huge improvement in player quality post-Cardrunners et al.

[Tal]

Is there not an argument (for another thread in all likelihood) that HUD, tracking software, 2+2, cardrunners and everything else are a great tool for emerging, hard-working and talented grinders, but that they are each and all much less effective for recreational players?

There are hundreds of thousands of chess books on opening theory: 200 page books, listing a dozen slightly different variations of a particular opening to get a player into the main part of the game. Millions of books sit on the shelves of club players all over the world. These same people have databases on their laptops and 'phones with millions of games at their fingertips. They watch training videos and DVDs on the same openings. They play through grandmaster games. Then, they play the same opening in their next club match, the other guy does something they can't quite remember and they make a hash of it and lose.

If you have the ability, all these resources are a catalyst to your development. If you don't, you learn that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Rob, I really hope this works out for you. You've given live poker a tremendous shot of adrenaline and, twenty years from now, in whatever state poker is in, your name and DTD will be mentioned. Business is business and, as much as we consumers like to keep things we like around us, if you decide it is time to move on, none of us should begrudge you that. I hope such talk is premature, though, and we continue to see you front of house in the best poker club I've had the pleasure to play in.

[AlunB]

I think that's a good comparison. All three together have made it very easy to learn to get at least competent at poker very quickly. And training videos evangelising of aggression hasn't helped matters for the recs (like me).

The difference is while both are hard to learn and take effort in poker the rewards are pretty substantial. Few things motivate like money in my experience.

Which leads me neatly on to a question of my own. How much do we think DTD is worth if Rob were to sell it? A fair few quid I would say.

[MC]

<3 DTD and everything they've done.

But these cash games are highly unlikely to be revolutionary in any way. I think they are a nice idea for DTD, and Rob's modest target seems reasonable for number of table hours. So hopefully they work out in that respect, but I don't see anything else coming of them.

[DTD-ACES]

<3 DTD and everything they've done.

But these cash games are highly unlikely to be revolutionary in any way. I think they are a nice idea for DTD, and Rob's modest target seems reasonable for number of table hours. So hopefully they work out in that respect, but I don't see anything else coming of them.

What would you describe displaying Real Names, Photos and Location of all players as?

Can someone answer my question on the % of cash game pros that currently use HUDS, and why this % is going to the trouble of doing so if it it correct that they don't increase their win rate? I don't understand this?

[pleno1]

Hi

Read these comments. I have never used tracking software. Pleno - can you answer these 2 questions for me please;

1. What % of online cash game pros do you believe use tracking software?

2. Why do this % of online pros bother buying and using the tracking software if it doesn't make any difference

I'm genuinely interested in the answers as I'm strictly a live player.

Cheers for feedback ,Simon

Hi Simon what would be best would be for me to set up a show with rob and Steve mcloughlin - the head of pokertracker. He is a friend and one of the most knowledgable people In the industry. He is THE most knowledgable when it comes to tracking software.


I'm pretty sure that tracking software is built purposely for post game review. I would assume out of everybody who uses a HUD only 5% would do post game analysis. Out of that 5% is suggest only 5% more would really be able to use it properly.

People buy things because they feel its minus ev not to. People do this in any kind of industry. Poker players especially are so easy to sell anything to. It will have a slight advantage I'm sure but definitely not to the scale that is being portrayed here or in the blogs.

[AlunB]

Hi

Read these comments. I have never used tracking software. Pleno - can you answer these 2 questions for me please;

1. What % of online cash game pros do you believe use tracking software?

2. Why do this % of online pros bother buying and using the tracking software if it doesn't make any difference

I'm genuinely interested in the answers as I'm strictly a live player.

Cheers for feedback ,Simon

Hi Simon what would be best would be for me to set up a show with rob and Steve mcloughlin - the head of pokertracker. He is a friend and one of the most knowledgable people In the industry. He is THE most knowledgable when it comes to tracking software.


I'm pretty sure that tracking software is built purposely for post game review. I would assume out of everybody who uses a HUD only 5% would do post game analysis. Out of that 5% is suggest only 5% more would really be able to use it properly.

People buy things because they feel its minus ev not to. People do this in any kind of industry. Poker players especially are so easy to sell anything to. It will have a slight advantage I'm sure but definitely not to the scale that is being portrayed here or in the blogs.

You two having dinner together must be hilarious

[pleno1]

Regarding training sites, again a one sided view.

Every week I do a live seminar and I infrequently release videos.

This week I released a video. It has now had 5000 isn views. Our of these views maybe MAXIMUM 100 people actually play in the games, probably closer to 30!! For the rest it's about seeing where they can get to and a motivation for them to play.

With card runners people used to aspire to be that 5knl grinder. I know after watching a training video 4 years ago I was motivated to play and deposit!!

The videos are made by successful players who are perhaps creating an illusion abut the simplicity of online poker and generating mass deposits. The positives definitely balance the negatives. Out of those 5000 guys I would assume that some will learn and some will gt Better but the majority of them will not remember any of it come next week.

Especially with pokerstrategy we do thi gs such as "heads up championships" and numerous other fun positive things for entertainment to motivate deposits and to popularize poker.

[pleno1]

Hi

Read these comments. I have never used tracking software. Pleno - can you answer these 2 questions for me please;

1. What % of online cash game pros do you believe use tracking software?

2. Why do this % of online pros bother buying and using the tracking software if it doesn't make any difference

I'm genuinely interested in the answers as I'm strictly a live player.

Cheers for feedback ,Simon

Hi Simon what would be best would be for me to set up a show with rob and Steve mcloughlin - the head of pokertracker. He is a friend and one of the most knowledgable people In the industry. He is THE most knowledgable when it comes to tracking software.


I'm pretty sure that tracking software is built purposely for post game review. I would assume out of everybody who uses a HUD only 5% would do post game analysis. Out of that 5% is suggest only 5% more would really be able to use it properly.

People buy things because they feel its minus ev not to. People do this in any kind of industry. Poker players especially are so easy to sell anything to. It will have a slight advantage I'm sure but definitely not to the scale that is being portrayed here or in the blogs.

You two having dinner together must be hilarious

Would you believe that when I took him out and he said "I'll have whatever you gave" that he said it was the nicest teak restaurant he had been to? Haha

[millidonk]

[aaron1867]

[AlunB]

Hi

Read these comments. I have never used tracking software. Pleno - can you answer these 2 questions for me please;

1. What % of online cash game pros do you believe use tracking software?

2. Why do this % of online pros bother buying and using the tracking software if it doesn't make any difference

I'm genuinely interested in the answers as I'm strictly a live player.

Cheers for feedback ,Simon

Hi Simon what would be best would be for me to set up a show with rob and Steve mcloughlin - the head of pokertracker. He is a friend and one of the most knowledgable people In the industry. He is THE most knowledgable when it comes to tracking software.


I'm pretty sure that tracking software is built purposely for post game review. I would assume out of everybody who uses a HUD only 5% would do post game analysis. Out of that 5% is suggest only 5% more would really be able to use it properly.

People buy things because they feel its minus ev not to. People do this in any kind of industry. Poker players especially are so easy to sell anything to. It will have a slight advantage I'm sure but definitely not to the scale that is being portrayed here or in the blogs.

You two having dinner together must be hilarious

Would you believe that when I took him out and he said "I'll have whatever you gave" that he said it was the nicest teak restaurant he had been to? Haha

Where did you take him? And I'm sure he's very polite