Open this range up though and its wrong. Add AQ AJ QQ JJ 10 10 to his range and then......
The shove on the no A K flop may get him to fold, the check he shoves we call were probs ahead etc etc

It almost equates to a max/min problem in calculus.

By adding in AQ AJ QQ JJ and TT into his range, you then have to think that shoving is correct. However, the value you lose in the shove is the fact he must then call with a hand like that. IMO he will not call a shove w one of those hands, only one that beats us. This is the crux of my post. We are giving too much fold equity to worse hands, and allowing better hands to get max value.

As for calling preflop and shoving a non-dangerous flop we are still behind all hands that we were behind to preflop, thereby playing the hand out exactly as a preflop shove would do. And hands such as Ax, get away on a low board and the preflop call merely acts as a way for a worse hand to catch up.

folding > shoving > calling

I play quite a bit of full ring on Stars and this is a fold.

Few reasons:

1) You are out of position. If you call the flop and shove any non-A or non-K flop, you are allowing AA and KK to get max value, and losing value to AK. If you check, villain can then shove ANY hand forcing you to then make a decision for 66bb's rather than the 22bb (call 4bet) or 89bb (shove) with no new info.
                                      If you shove over the 5bet, he again plays perfect poker. His 3bet size indicates strength. A 3bet of 33bb is strong as it sets up a flop with 66bb in the pot, with 66BB behind. Strong indication to a flop shove. In my experience, this is never done w a hand that QQ beats most of the time (ie 99-JJ). Yes he could have AK, but I dont like to be the guy who is shoving the 5bet, I like to be the 4bettor, leaving the other player in doubt. Of course we lose value in the long run by not shoving QQ into AK, but the value we lose in that spot, is in turn given back the times we shove into KK and AA.

2) Advertising. In the grand scheme of things, 11bb's is not much, especially when you are analyzing strength in a 200bb pot. Therefore, by folding, you show villain and all others at the table you are capable of 3betting light and folding to the 4bet. I always make a note of someone who 4bet me and I folded and also, folded to a 5bet. If this same hand came up again 2 orbits later, I would shove the QQ. Could he have AA or KK, obviously, but the fact we now have history in a similar spot, I am comfortable shoving. Plus in that spot, I know players who fold AK to the 5bet because of our prior history, thereby allowing is to recoup the lost value in the previous hand and then some.


A few things on the comments on this hand.

I agree that 6max and full ring play differently, but to assume, full ring is a nitfest is wrong imo. Sit down at a 2-4 table with some solid regs, Kiwikaki, plyboy_binny, Gomukyaself, Aurora466, to name a few, they will own you if you think you can just start betting them out of pots.

To those who say full ring is the devil or a waste of time etc etc, thats cool, I respect your opinion. But I know that I can play more tables (usually 12, sometimes 16-20) at 200NL and 400NL and have a much higher winrate than I would playing 4-6 tables of 6max. I also enjoy it more as the variance is not as severe. Just as the variance in 6max is not as severe as Heads up.

-Canuck

If this is posted somewhere else, I apologise, but I saw this on Saturday and thought it was pretty funny.

http://www.istadia.com/blog/robrobson/299

In 1998 for the first time pro hockey players could compete in the Olympics.

We lost to the Czechs in a shootout in the semis. Hasek was unreal and they ended up beating the Russians for the gold. I felt totally deflated as did the country.

In 2002, the Olympics were in Salt Lake City.

On the Thursday night before the games ended, our women beat the USA in the womens hockey final 3-2 avenging the Nagano 1998 defeat. It was sweet. But on the last day of the games, Sunday February 15th, we played the USA in the mens final.

It remains the greatest day of my life.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1GBuVy7Jf4&feature=related

if anyone who does not watch hockey gets a chance to watch a game this playoffs, make it the Pittsburgh Penguins. Fantastic to watch.

Crosby Malkin Hossa Fleury Staal etc etc

FWIW My little bro played Crosby like 10 years ago in a minor hockey tourney. He was 8 playing against 12 year olds. He scored the OT winner lol.

no goals allowed v Fiorentina

no goals allowed  v Sporting

1 goal allowed v Bremen

1 goal v That weird Greek name (Im Canadian remember)


Impressive. Cueller is just sick good and I dont even know football.

BTW Toronto Maple Leafs to win the cup next year. That is all

Thank you all

Mad - the fiancee will love the spa, ty

I got it right away and Im Canadian lol

Going for my honeymoon in Vegas in early July. My fiancee does not play poker and has absolutely no desire to play. I am cool with that though and I dont plan on playing much/at all.

I am looking for good spots to go to, restaurants, shopping, good shows, things we would both probably like.

Any tips and comments are appreciated.

Oh, we have booked the Bellagio so we dont need any hotel info.

cheers
-Canuck

I have to say the ESPN feed of the Celtic game over at Channel Surfing is amazing - great quality and no buffering or dropouts.

agreed

alright $430 and its yours. 30£ saved

im not an irrational person.

I am using Pokerstars fpp's to purchase a £250 amazon gift voucher.

I have no interest in buying anything on there but I worked out the math and my fpp's are getting good value compared to cash rewards.

So, a £250 gift voucher is about $489.

I am selling it for $465. If anyone is interested in buying it, I will purchase it, and 5 minutes later I get a voucher code. I will simply send you the code and you ship the $465 to my Stars account.

I must add though, I want the $$$ online not in cheque or anything. Stars preferably, Full Tilt if need be.

If anyone is interested, post here or pm me.

[Pre-Flop:]

First hand is a $10 tourney on Stars. Started with 2600, down to final 60 or so. I am in about 15th place right now. UTG villain is fairly straight forward. The only people who can hurt me have both yet to act, the SB and BB.


Poker Stars, $10 + $1 NL Hold'em Tournament, 2,500/5,000 Blinds, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN): 138,265
SB: 138,952
BB: 267,168
UTG: 78,596
UTG+1: 60,256
MP1: 50,487
MP2: 123,911
CO: 151,552

Pre-Flop: (11,500) dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG raises to 15,000, 4 folds, Hero what do I do?




2nd hand is 17.5K guaranteed on Full Tilt. Started with 1200 players, down to 30. I am in 15th spot or so.

Full Tilt Poker, NL Hold'em Tournament, 2,500/5,000 Blinds, 600 Ante, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP1: 244,021
MP2: 198,531
CO: 124,438
BTN: 173,619
SB: 42,206
Hero (BB): 84,882
UTG: 41,711
UTG+1: 116,484

Pre-Flop: (12,300) dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG raises to 41,111 and is All-In, 6 folds, `Hero??? what do I do?

I believe the moon is quite old so I will guess this has been seen.

whatever, I think its worth a second look

[EuroRounders]

I saw this on another forum and laughed till I cried.

Dunno if it has been on blonde but if not, enjoy.

***there is a few times bad language is used so if that isnt your thing, dont read on***




EuroRounders

Michel (voiceover): "If you can't find the boorish American hold'em player at the table within half an hour, you are the boorish American hold'em player."

-----

TITLE/CREDITS. This entire movie is in black and white, with subtitles.

-----

Michel (voiceover): "This game is really scummy, and well above what I can afford to play. My entire bankroll is riding on this one session going well. This is Teddy CIA's place, where they only play Pot Limit Omaha, the most sophisticated game in Europe."

- Michel knocks on the window -

Teddy CIA: "You want poker, or whore?"

Michel: "Poker. Give me three stacks of high, elitist society."

-----

Michel: "I raise."

Teddy CIA: "It's a position raise. I call."

- The flop comes 5-7-A, with two diamonds -

Michel: "I bet the pot."

Teddy CIA: "I raise the pot."

Michel: "I reraise the pot."

Teddy CIA: "I reraise the pot."

Michel: "Pot."

Teddy CIA: "Pot."

Michel: "Pot."

Teddy CIA: "Pot."

Michel: "Pot."

Teddy CIA: "Pot."

Michel (voiceover): "I sit back and think. I have three aces - the best possible hand. I want him to think I'm debating a call, but really I'm just thinking about Monte Carlo, and whatever the fuck is in Monte Carlo."

Michel: *shrugs* "Okay, well, I re-pot it, I'm all in, because I don't think you have a pair." *winks at the camera*

Teddy CIA: "Who are you winking at? It doesn't matter, I call."

Michel (voiceover): "I know before he even says it."

Teddy CIA: "I have 8-6-4-3 with two diamonds, for a wrap straight draw and a flush draw, which is a favorite over your top set."

- Turn is a King. River is a 2 which gives Teddy CIA an ace-to-five straight for the win. -

- Michel sits there, shell-shocked. -

Joey Croissant: "Come on, I'll get you a whore."

-----

Michel (voiceover): "Well, that sucked. Since then, I've sworn off of poker and made my living as a roadside prostitute for boorish American tourists. Hopefully, I can pay my way through law school that way. I can always find games, though. I could turn this truck onto the road and be at the Taj in 19 and a half hours."

-----

Michel (voiceover): "I'm here to pick my friend Worm up from prison."

- Worm walks out of prison -

Michel: "Worm! It's wonderful to see you!"

- They kiss each other passionately on the mouth -

Michel: "How was prison?"

Worm: "I was brutally sodomized on a regular basis."

-----

Michel: "Look...Croissant, I never told you this, but about a year ago, I was playing poker at the Casino des Atlantes, and Marcel Luske walks in. He sits down at the 50/100 pot limit game. And, I mean, the whole place stops, right? Just watching this guy play. After a while there isn't a retarded European gambling game going, because everybody's just, you know, watching this guy."

- Joey Croissant nods -

Michel: "So you know what I did? I sat down."

Joey Croissant: "No way, you need at least 300,000 euros to sit down at a game like that. Such bad financial management is typical of a boorish American!"

- Joey Croissant and Michel laugh for twenty-six minutes -

Michel: "Right, okay, but seriously, I played for an hour, doing nothing but folding. Then I won a huge pot."

Joey Croissant: "Aces? Kings? Ace-King doublesuited? Suited aces? High connectors? Middle doublesuited connectors? Two big pair?"

Michel: "Rags."

Joey Croissant: "That's probably fine too, you're only like a 48/52 dog."

Michel: "I raised. And he came over the top of me, like I was a boorish American. I re-popped it. He potted it again. I think for like two seconds and then I re-pot it."

Joey Croissant: "Jesus fucking Christ, how much money did you have?"

Michel: "After I bet I would quietly slide my chips back toward my stack, nobody noticed. Anyway, he thinks for a while, looks at me, checks his cards again, and he mucks. I take it down. And then he looks at me and says, 'I have to know. Did you have it?' And I said, 'I'm sorry Marcel, I can't remember.'"

Joey Croissant: "Face!"

Michel: "I know, totally. Anyway, based on that one hand, I felt confident gambling for all the money I had, at one time."

-----

Law Professor: "I am a Jew."

Michel: "I hate you."

-----

Teddy CIA: "We play, heads up, Pot Limit Omaha, 25 and 50 blinds, until one of us has it all?"

Michel: "Out of sheer curiosity, you realize you're giving up like boat loads of equity by agreeing to gamble for money that's effectively yours anyway, right? That you could just not let me play, and then kill me and take what I have?"

Teddy CIA: "I know, but I am a boorish American!"

- Michel and Teddy CIA laugh for seventy-two minutes -

-----

Michel (voiceover): "I pick up Ace-Ace-Jack-Ten doublesuited."

Michel: "I raise the pot."

Teddy CIA: "Very aggressive. But, I reraise the pot."

Michael (voiceover): "He's representing Ace-Ace-King-King doublesuited, the only hand better than mine. I can't call, and give him a chance to catch. I can only fold...if I believe him."

Michel: "I reraise, I'm all in."

Teddy CIA: "Take it down."

-----

- The flop reads 10-9-5, with two spades -

Michel: "Pot."

Teddy CIA: "Pot."

Michel: "Pot."

Teddy CIA: "Pot."

Michel: "Pot."

Teddy CIA: "Pot."

Michel: "Pot. I'm all in."

Teddy CIA: "Alright, I call. What do you have?"

Michel: "Jack high flush draw and middle set."

Teddy CIA: "Wrap, with a king high flush draw."

Michel: "Boy, I sure hope my 5:4 edge holds up, otherwise I am going to die."

- Turn is an off-suit 5, giving Michel an unbeatable hand. But the river is the ace of spades anyway, because it's always the fucking ace of spades. -

Teddy CIA: "He beat me. Pay that man his money. His silly, silly-looking European money."

-----

Cab Driver: "Where are you off to?"

Michel: "Monte Carlo."

Cab Driver: "Good luck."

Michel: "Shut the fuck up."

-----

The End