Fascinating hand from last night...

[The Camel]

What do you think of my play?

What would you do differently?

I will post my thoughts and the results  later...


8 players left in the $215 Sunday night on Stars. First prize $162,000.

I am fifth in chips with just over a million (The average is about 1.5 million) Blinds are 30-60k with a running 3k.

Play is generally tight, but the guy in the sb is by far the loosest player seeing many flops and playing quite passively but he seems hard to get rid of once he's in a pot.

I pick up TT in second position. I raise to 180k. Everyone passes to the sb who has 2.2 million. He calls. Bb passes. There is 444k in the pot.

Flop comes .

He bets 60k.

I call.

Turn comes .

He bets 60k.

I raise to 240k total. (A raise of 180k)

He calls.

River comes .

We both check.


What do you reckon?

[ifm]

Hmmm, first thought is to reraise the flop.
60k into a 444k pot looks like a tester or just trying to stop you betting big, just flat calling would tell me you haven't gotten too much of the flop so the turn reraise doesn't look too daunting.
Though once he called the turn raise i would have given up on the hand too.

So basically a reraise on the flop would have been stronger (looking) than on the turn.

[Dewi_cool]

Looks as if he has AJ here , he's not sure if you have the Q, and has now found out that you dont have it, also a flush draw on board keep it passive

[TightEnd]

Thanks for posting this here Keith...likely to be a range of opinions on this one!

I think the key here is your action on the turn. I think I flat call on the flop too.

Why is your raise so small relative to pot size on the turn, he has to call a raise of 180k into a pot of 804k (correct me if I am wrong) so exactly what hand do you expect him to pass here getting those odds? Are you just pot building for when you hit?

You say he is difficult to get rid of and I would be interested to know if you think you are ahead  on the flop? his range of hands must include flush and straight draws, any Q or J or 9 etc.

once he has checked on the river I would be sorely tempted to bet.

[byronkincaid]

I would be all in on the flop. If you had deep stacks I would prob call flop and turn and fold to a big river bet, but you ain't so I shove it in.

[Bertpup]

I agree with IFM that the reraise the flop with your hand is the correct decision.

With you flat calling on the flop i think you are either saying i have a 10, a flush draw or an AK that hasnt hit. IMO with a board that scary any hand that has hit that flop will be reraising to get rid of straight/flush draws.

I think if i were to play the hand then i would probably reraise the flop to find out where i was maybe to 280-300k then if called check the turn.

I think your reraise on the turn was perhaps on the low side as its only another 180k into a 880k pot( i think if my adding up is ok). If you had been betting into someone with an average stack then this raise could have worked as you are putting their tourney lives at stake. I think the turn raise of that size into Mr CallerMcallerson with a 2.2million stack hes going to be callling with any part of that board.

I think on the river check has to be the right option, unless you have some seriously large bollcoks and pushing it all in.


Congrats on the result!!

[bobby1]

His flop bet looks weak and I suppose the push all in with a view to getting him to fold or having good outs to win the hand if he calls is an option.

I am looking at the turn from his view, if you were really strong I think you raise on the flop as my flop bet looks like I am drawing or info betting. So your raise on the turn doesnt strike me as a protection raise on what is now a quite scary board.(tho it could look like a   K 10 raise) If I was raising there I might have pushed because I think thats what you would do with a strong hand here given the draws that are around as he bets bigger on the flop with top pair good kicker and two pair. Obviously I am hoping for a fold. Im not sure I raise there tho.

I think I  move in on the end thinking I may be behind but he has bet small on two streets and then checked when the diamond drops on the end but by raising on the turn im not sure you have enough chips to put him off his hand if he is prone to making loose calls....sorry I havent done the exact math but I think you have around 500k left.

Calling his bets on two streets would have given you cheap shots at your draw and kept the pot smallish and the hand would have ended as it did with a check check, which is no bad thing. I think there were spots that you could have possibly taken the hand off him.

Keith, I would like to hear what you think on this reply, cause if I am talking bollox I would like to hear it from one of the best.

[tikay]

How the hell can we tell Keith what (if anything) he did wrong, he's THE man! But fascinating hand.

Me? I'm into "finding out where I am", so I'd have put a big bet in on the flop, then no more if he called. But I'd have been out way before the Final!

[JP]

I watched this hand and didn't know what you had at the time was gonna pm you to ask.

I either move all in on the flop OR just call on the flop and 4th street.

But the best play is what you did I think I just personally wouldn't at this stage. Raising the turn gives you a chance to take it down and you suspect you might be winning, also you are gonna check the river if a K or 8 doesn't fall.

Good play just the wrong result. (This was picked up from playing limit Keith?)

[Royal Flush]

Good play just the wrong result. (This was picked up from playing limit Keith?)

Just what i was thinking!

[ariston]

Allin on the flop and he is only calling with a hand thats got you beat. I like the reraise on the turn (semi bluff after all) and because you didn't push to many chips in it looks like you are milking him- from your brief analysis of the player this play me be to advanced against him. I cant raise on the flop as I am asking for action I don't really want and by raising small on the turn you made him check the river. Think you played the hand as good as it can be played and you lost the minimum by the sounds. Great result btw.

[ariston]

I posted my response before reading anyone elses but now I have I am amazed how many of you will still fall for a weak lead- this bet is common in big tournaments and you had all better learn to stop reraising flops like this. If a good player flops a monster he regularly leads out begging for a reraise, I'm not saying this was the case in this hand but if you gonna reraise here after a small probe looking bet you going to be left with lots of tricky decisions. What if you reraise the flop and I go allin? Obviously I have the monster and have duped you into reraising ( or do I have rags and am just pretending i ran a weak lead into you?). Calling is not always a weak play and is certainly for me the correct play at this stage of the tournament.

[totalise]

I like just calling down here, once the flop is called

Stewart Reuben talks about a Mortons Fork principle in his omaha script, and it seems to apply here. If he is ahead, the raise by you (potentially) lets him bet you out the pot, and he is laying you a real good price to draw even if you just had a naked 10,  and if he is behind, there arent many improving cards for him on the river, and just calling mite get him to bet into you again on the river.. so you (seemingly) gain either way.

As for the play on the flop, I'm quite torn. I generally dont like raisin in spots like this as I'm not confident enough in my opponents ability to fold weak Q's or J's, so it would feel too much like raising hoping to get best hands folding in a spot where I dont trust their ability to fold (because AK missed and people always put you on AK online) so i'd probably just call down cheaply and see if we can hit or get a real discounted showdown

nice result in the tourney

[bobby1]

I posted my response before reading anyone elses but now I have I am amazed how many of you will still fall for a weak lead- this bet is common in big tournaments and you had all better learn to stop reraising flops like this. If a good player flops a monster he regularly leads out begging for a reraise, I'm not saying this was the case in this hand but if you gonna reraise here after a small probe looking bet you going to be left with lots of tricky decisions. What if you reraise the flop and I go allin? Obviously I have the monster and have duped you into reraising ( or do I have rags and am just pretending i ran a weak lead into you?). Calling is not always a weak play and is certainly for me the correct play at this stage of the tournament.

Nice post Russ, the raise leaves you with the tough decisions but the all in takes that away, what is your view on making these big all in raises with drawing hands like the one above, I dont like it but see it done many times and on this occasion he needs a big hand to call and the fold equity is pretty good.


I know you play a lot of cash, how do you play these drawing hands in cash games and tourneys?

[ariston]

tourneys and cash is like comparing rugby union to rugby league- may be the same shaped ball with plenty men trying to kill each other but its completely different.
In a cash game you would probably make the raise on the flop to define your hand or try to get a free card on the turn presuming he calls then checks. In a tourney an allin raise here is only going to be called by a hand that has you beat and a small raise is only going to make the pot bigger and worth stealing. Sure if he calls with a hand that beats you you may still have outs- I say may because what if he has KTds here- you are drawing very thin for a chop. I do not like the allin semibluff on the flop here at this stage of a comp, earlier I can justify it but now we are getting towards the real money and I dont like putting my tournament life at stake betting to lose (ie he can only call you if you are screwed). By raising the turn he has also taken away the opportunity to bluff the change on the river imo as an astute player would be able to put you on that bluff (very few players have the game or the balls to reraise the turn on a flush draw)