Fascinating hand from last night...

[ifm]

I understand what you say and it makes sense but surely if jamming the flop is inherent of risk then so would a move by the oppo too?
With that flop you would jam the flop to a reraise??
I can't see the justification for it, as you say you are only getting called by a winning hand.

Gotta say i love this stuff!!

[Bertpup]

In reply to Arison, I think that min bet move either does show major weakness or major strength but with a board like that would you be min betting a made straight or a set.

If he has nothing what would be the point in reraising all in. At this moment in time he has 2million chips and is still in a very strong position to go on and win the tourney. If he loses hes down to 1.2million in chips which would put him below the average and 8 people still to go. To reraise someone all in that has already shown pre-flop strength at a tight table, he would then be reraising the flop bet of someone who has said i have a big hand im willing to play for chips and take it down.


that probably doesnt make any sense little tired!

[bobby1]

Jam the river imo.

Its unlikely he has donk led twice with a fl draw.
Its v unlikely he has a st draw as you have TT.

So therefore he has you beat but I watched the hand and was convinced he had no clue as to where he was and would 100% have passed to a river jam.

He passes plenty of big hands to a river jam on that board and passes AJ in a heartbeat. You had an extremely tight solid image and he would have respected that.

Thats how I saw it on the river, I think I am behind but he is weak so its a case of check check or move in.

[Raindogs]

I think this is a fold on the flop.

I don't fancy T's on that flop regardless of the fact that the guy is playing loose.  A 60k lead out on that flop is either an idiot who doesn't know what he is doing (60k into a 444k pot ) or a bet inviting a reraise as Ariston pointed out.  He could have flopped a straight with a K9, 2 pair with JQ, etc..  Either way I don't think I would continue after the flop given that after my preflop raise I am down to 800k and any attempt to take the pot with a significant bet would put me in a bad way. 

However given he only bet 60k I would probably call the flop bet assuming I am behind and drawing to 6 outs for the straight.  I don't like a raise here because if he is unlikely to fold what is the point ?  If he checks the turn do you fire again, or check and then face a river bet into you.  His turn bet is very strange but there are still 2 overcards and a flush draw on the board.  I would call the 60k turn bet rather than raise because a) I don't believe I am ahead at this point b) mateyboy has already shown he is difficult to get off a hand c) if he re-raises what do you do ?  d) I have pot odds for my straight draw  If I miss the straight I fold to any river bet (unless he bets 60k again).

All things considered I would like to think I would fold to the flop bet, weak play as it is.  There are 2 overcards and a flush draw on the board and any defence of this hand is going to cost a significant amount of chips.  If you call the flop and turn bets, the pot will be nearly 700k by the river and it would be difficult to fold to any modest sized river bet given the size of the pot.  It is a passive play and is probably a weakness in my game but I would still play safe in this position given my stack size.

[Royal Flush]

I think this is a fold on the flop.

I don't fancy T's on that flop regardless of the fact that the guy is playing loose.  A 60k lead out on that flop is either an idiot who doesn't know what he is doing (60k into a 444k pot ) or a bet inviting a reraise as Ariston pointed out.  He could have flopped a straight with a K9, 2 pair with JQ, etc..  Either way I don't think I would continue after the flop given that after my preflop raise I am down to 800k and any attempt to take the pot with a significant bet would put me in a bad way. 

However given he only bet 60k I would probably call the flop bet assuming I am behind and drawing to 6 outs for the straight.  I don't like a raise here because if he is unlikely to fold what is the point ?  If he checks the turn do you fire again, or check and then face a river bet into you.  His turn bet is very strange but there are still 2 overcards and a flush draw on the board.  I would call the 60k turn bet rather than raise because a) I don't believe I am ahead at this point b) mateyboy has already shown he is difficult to get off a hand c) if he re-raises what do you do ?  d) I have pot odds for my straight draw  If I miss the straight I fold to any river bet (unless he bets 60k again).

All things considered I would like to think I would fold to the flop bet, weak play as it is.  There are 2 overcards and a flush draw on the board and any defence of this hand is going to cost a significant amount of chips.  If you call the flop and turn bets, the pot will be nearly 700k by the river and it would be difficult to fold to any modest sized river bet given the size of the pot.  It is a passive play and is probably a weakness in my game but I would still play safe in this position given my stack size.

Did you misread the hand??

He has an open str8 draw. TT on a QJ9 board.

[stallyon]

IMO I'd say your opponent has unsuited AK and was betting for value in case the Ace, King or Ten hit. As none hit by the river he now doesnt know where he is and all he has is the nut Ace high. Either that or he has the flush and is trapping you. Either way I'd bet out and see what he has if he calls.

[The Camel]

Great thread.

I think the thread proves it was a pretty difficult hand to play..

Anyways, here is my thought process during the hand:

My raise was a standard 3 time the BB job.

The caller was pretty loose/passive and I didn't mind playing a pot with position against him.

The weak lead bet signifies one of two things usually. Either he has flopped a huge hand and wants me to raise or he is trying to see the turn card cheaply. I didn't raise on the flop because I felt he was the sort of player to call with a draw and with so many possible draws there I didn't want to risk my tournament when the chances of me being a big favourite (him having a bare ten or T9) were seemingly very small. It seemed likely to me it was either going to be about a coin flip (Him having Axd, Kxd) or he was a big favourite (Txd, QT, JT). So I called.

Now, I have rarely, if ever seen a weak lead on the flop, followed by a weak lead on the the turn. Now this convinced me he was drawing.

I tried to raise enough to make it expensive but keep enough back to jam the river. Perhaps I should have raised 60k more.

When the diamond fell on the river, I did feel like he would have checked anything other than the nut flush to me and called if I pushed. I felt like he would have folded a jack on the turn and called with a queen. He couldn't put me on a flush draw due to my raise on the turn (although I do raise on flush draws on the turn if I feel I can get my opponent off his hand). The only hand which I could get him off with a river push that I wasn't beating already was TJ. So I checked.

He showed AJ and won the pot. Obviously I will never know if he would fold on the river for my push. But I suspect he would have made a crying call.

In retrospect, I think I should have check called all the way against this opponent (That Thew boy knows his stuff). The thing to remember about the semi bluff is it only worth doing against an opponent who is capable of folding. I don't think this guy was the folding type...

[bobby1]

Lovely run through of the hand Camel.

If you had just called his turn bet would you have done anything different on the river?

[wsopin07]

One of the best I have read on Blonde so far Camel, congrats on the result

I think I would have pushed on the flop, but i agree 100% that you need to find the right player that will lay the hand down. 

Maximum pressure as I would say , thats why I would have pushed

[elblondie]

dunno about Thewy, I think Tighty and JP both said the best play was to check call all the way (depending on the size of bet on the river & possibly passing on the river)
I agree and think the re-raise was probably a small mistake (as it would have probably gone check check on the river)
The most probably hands here for your opponent are KQ or AJ and it doesn't sound like he is likely to pass either, so all those who say go all-in on the flop should go to the bottom of the class....in my opinion

[ifm]

What do you think the cons of the reraise on the flop folks?

[totalise]

What do you think the cons of the reraise on the flop folks?

what do you wanna achieve by raising? you have a pretty tough job getting better hands folding.. so you are almost in the position of betting in a spot where better hands call, and worse hands fold, and given your hand, its not overly likely that a second best hand will improve, because a) your 10/10 are blockers to gutshots b) one of the two overcards that comes makes your straight and c) you are being laid a really pretty price to draw even if you had just a naked 10

Re-opening the betting in this spot is gonna put you in a world of hurt if he comes over the top, as you have just jazzed away the chance to play the pot small with (hopefully) quite a few outs, and given the stage of the tourney, I'd expect it to be the case that calling here is better then raising. You can also represent the flush if it comes on the river and poooosh, which would be hard to do if you raise and get 3-bet out the pot.. and if you raise and he folds? awesome, you just made him fold a worse hand a real high % of the time. Maybe its the case that you dont get another chip out of him unless he improves, so you are glad that he folded a worse hand, but when you weight it all together, I think the pro's of just calling outweigh the minus' by a pretty high %

[ifm]

cheers, all makes sense.
What about the reraise on the flop opposed to the reraise on the turn then?

[totalise]

cheers, all makes sense.
What about the reraise on the flop opposed to the reraise on the turn then?

Most of my comments were directed at the flop raise, hope that came through clearly.... as for the re-rai on the turn...

...I think they are much the same....once you call the flop, its hard to raise the turn and convince the villain that you are best (especially for such a small amount) , and it doesn't give you the chance to bluff the river if the flush comes as I think ariston alluded to earlier. It does buy you a free river a large % of the time, but the way the betting has gone, its unlikely that the villain is suddenly going to bet $400k on the river.. so you will prolly get the cheap river just by calling... and calling just lets you see the river, rather then risk getting blasted off the pot (although admittedly this is a small concern)

IFFFFFFF I did raise the river up, Id (typically) be doing it with the intention of bombing the river, not to get a free card.. as it feels like he has a weak hand that beats you, and bombing the pot seems like the only way to win it, (on the times you miss your hand)  and raising the turn sets up the river bet quite nicely. Its quite exploitable, and great players will prolly see rite through it, you just gotta hope you aren't facing a good player = )

Thats only an if though, calling the turn seems best

[tikay]

What a stonking Thread, more of these please.

Especially interested in the Posts by Totaliise, I'd not fancy playing him too often, but from start to finish, a quality thread.