Unorthodox move from tricky player

[TightEnd]

Live freezeout comp

Blinds 200-400

You have 9000 chips

14 Players left, average chips 8,000...5 paid


You are SB with 

Mid position limper and chip leader with 16,000 on button limps


Button is a "feel" player...not great on theory but tricky..plays a wide range of hands and you have largely left him alone. You've had position but have not taken him on and have been playing solidly and waiting for a chance to trap him.

You raise to 2500, not wanting to play Jacks out of position multi way and confident of taking the 1400 (3 x 400 and 200 SB) in the middle there and then

BB and mid limper pass. Button re-raises 3500 more.

I have rarely seen the limp re-raise from any button live. EVER!

No idea what hand he is prepared to risk playing multi way if the blinds don't raise, and BB is a rock.

Big pair? surely not...risking playing that 4 way?

AK? gotta raise with 14 players left

Smaller pair? gotta raise there too

I dwelt and dwelt.frankly quite confused...I have 6500 left and the reraise costs me 3500...its push or fold, flat call isn't an option I think


Over to you....

What does a limp re-raise from a tricky button player mean to you?
What range of hands do you put him on?
Pass or Push?

I know, either because I called or he showed...what he had...after some responses I'll spill the beans

[ifm]

hmm, i can only think he has aces.
It's the only hand i would limp on the button with and reraise with.
If he thinks you are at-it and is making a move then he'd have put you allin surely??
So by my rationale he has either aces or pretty much any attractive hand lol.
(mid pair or suited connectors).
I don't know the answer but i would probably lean towards the allin as with only 5 paid doubling up will put you in a great position for the final.
There, i made a decision, allin.

[Royal Flush]

Gotta push, he puts you on a move so probably thinks he can get you off it. My guess is smaller pair or suited picture cards.

[lazaroonie]

i think I would put him on a hand quite similar to yourself - maybe a bit lower like pocket 8's or 9's.

he has limped hoping to see a flop, but when raised behind he has decided to make a stand with it,

[totalise]

if he is a tricky player as you say, then this raise can be interpreted two ways:

1) he is doing this with AA/KK, as he wants to price you into playing and trap you for your stack

2) he is trying to represent 1.. mostly with a hand that will play you for stacks but wants to look stronger then it actually is (like mid pairs/Ax)


If he is doing it with 2, then you (a real high % of the time) have him strangled... what is the frequency of each? damned if I know.. although I'd guess its going to be 2) more often then 1).. so I'd just sling the chips in the middle and get shown AA or 44

[clayftknight]

I think whatever happens in this hand is irrelevant,, the lesson here is don't make terrible raises like that.

You cannot, at such a crucial point in the game, make a raise that can potentialiy put you on such a difficult position, what if someone flat calls?  half the time the flop will pop up an overcard and you have to either check it and give them a chance to bet and put you again on a tough decision or you have to push blind and pray the overcard missed then........they will be paying 2100 to win about 10k!  great odds indeed.

At this pont in the game, from this position, you have to limp or mve all in preflop......any other play is ugly indeed.

I suggest you fold to his raise and slap yourself in the face a few times and promise yourself you'll never do it again.

[Raindogs]

How aggressive was he ?  If he thought you were trying to steal would he try to push you off the pot ?  What was your normal raising range ?

Your 2500 raise would look like a steal to me depending on what your normal raising range was.  If you wanted to take the pot down there and then you should have gone all in but given your chip position that would be a crude play.  My guess is he has a medium pair, interpreted your large preflop raise as weakness, and decided to try and push you off the pot.  If he went all in it would look like an obvious re-steal but by raising 3500 he makes it look like a disguised monster.  If you re-raise all in he still has a hand.  I don't think he has AK - AJ as he would have raised preflop.  You are either way ahead or way behind if he was slowplaying.

After your raise you have 6500 but you are playing 7 handed with the blinds at 200/400.  If the blinds are going to increase soon then I think you have to push here and hope he wasn't slowplaying a monster.  If you have more time at this level you could opt to fold if you thought he was slowplaying.

[marcro]

I think whatever happens in this hand is irrelevant,, the lesson here is don't make terrible raises like that.

You cannot, at such a crucial point in the game, make a raise that can potentialiy put you on such a difficult position, what if someone flat calls?  half the time the flop will pop up an overcard and you have to either check it and give them a chance to bet and put you again on a tough decision or you have to push blind and pray the overcard missed then........they will be paying 2100 to win about 10k!  great odds indeed.

At this pont in the game, from this position, you have to limp or mve all in preflop......any other play is ugly indeed.

I suggest you fold to his raise and slap yourself in the face a few times and promise yourself you'll never do it again.

I mostly agree with Clayftniight with the exception that a raise of 1,000 to 1,200 could help you see where you are and leave you with 20 BB's which still gives you time to play the rest of the touney.

[seamus]

Button is a "feel" player...not great on theory but tricky..plays a wide range of hands and you have largely left him alone. You've had position but have not taken him on and have been playing solidly and waiting for a chance to trap him.


[/quote]

This tells me you are nervous about this player, particularly so if you have seen his plays to become CL.

How does he see you? Informed player raising 3XBB puts you on a high pair or AK etc. Anything better and he might expect an all-in.

He is in position and might not be worried about seeing a flop or a reraise either because he has AA/KK or because he is going to push regardless.

I would fold. But maybe that’s partly because JJ is a bogey hand for me.

[yt]

whoever the type of player making this move it's still a strong move and you have to respect it. It's more likely to be AA than anything else.
Clay is right I would have pushed there and then with the jacks.
*IF* i raised 3BB and was reraised I would be folding.

[mjrevie]

I think it depends less on what you know about him, but what he knows about you. I think he is re-raising with very little, possibly suited connectors or two face cards. Lets look at it from the villians point of view.

I and one other has limped in. I know the BB is a rock and I know that you know the BB is a rock.  You've made a sizeable raise - 5x the BB and it looks like the sort of raise that doesnt want called. BB and limper folds and it comes back round to me. Your raise makes it appear you dont really want to see a flop with it, hence it cant be that strong a hand (obviously there is a chance that you could be doing this sort of raise with aces, looking weak but being strong). It doesnt matter what I have now, I smell weakness and decide to put you to the test. A re-raise here shows more strength because it appears to be pricing you in and wanting a call, but the villian and you both know that his re-raise is an all in re-raise. Your committed. Its either push or fold.

I say you should push and hope he turns over a low pair. I really cant see him turning over aces or kings or queens, and if he does, stand up, smack about the head a few times, shake his hand and congratulate him on playing well. You'll get his chips next week!

[byronkincaid]

You raise to 2500, not wanting to play Jacks out of position multi way

I wonder what people think about just calling with this hand to flop a set or an overpair? I know it sounds weak at this stage of a tourney but it has advantages too perhaps? You still have 20+ BB's left.

What about if you have TT, 99, 88, 77? Are you still raising? It's a lot easier to get away from 77 if you are reraised. Is it possible this is a situation where it's better to raise with 77 and call with JJ?

[ifm]

You raise to 2500, not wanting to play Jacks out of position multi way

I wonder what people think about just calling with this hand to flop a set or an overpair? I know it sounds weak at this stage of a tourney but it has advantages too perhaps? You still have 20+ BB's left.

What about if you have TT, 99, 88, 77? Are you still raising? It's a lot easier to get away from 77 if you are reraised. Is it possible this is a situation where it's better to raise with 77 and call with JJ?

My own view is the later in the comp i am the more aggressive i become, the blinds are worth taking and the shortstacks demand pressuring.
You are something like 9-1 to improve on a PP so taking it preflop with a horrid hand like JJ is the best route (for me anyway).

[rivered]

I'm thinking a small to mid pair.  He's thinknig he'll move you off it if you've got AK/AQ as you don't want to 50:50 gamble at this stage, or he's hoping if you have a pair like TT/JJ/QQ that you'll put him on AA/KK and fold.  Bold move.

[TightEnd]

I passed, face up. Frankly more out of confusion than anything. It was so strange i must admit I was not quite sure where I was

He showed KK

I was amazed.

Who limps there to play Kings 4 way? Odd but strangely brilliant

As for it being a horrible raise by me....well I think I have every right to expect my raise to win the pot there and then against two limpers and a BB, why am I pushing all in there and potentially risking everything when I can make this raise and still have plenty of play if I lose the hand?

IMHO I found out the same information with a 5x bb raise than putting my tournament life at stake

The pass here enabled me to go on and win the tournament when I limped AA utg and bogeyman in BB Reraised me allin with AQ and I doubled up and went from there...

I fundamentally disagree with clayftknight's suggestion here