Winning Against Players Who Never Fold..

[cryptic]

I guess some days is just not your day. I was playing a friendly no limit game the other night, and just did not win a hand.

Every time I hit a hand, I would get beat by a dumb call draw, since I was short stacked. Is there any way around this?

[rivered]

Very simply and briefly, if you catch a good hand on the flop but there are straight / flush draws which people might be tempted to chase, then you should bet the flop.  Make sure you bet enough chips so that a call would be a mathematical mistake by your opponent.  This is an oversimplified piece of advice and I'd recommend that you pick up a few good books which'll teach you how best to play the basics (harrington on hold'em has good write ups and is good to take the next step after you've learnt the basic rules of hold'em).

When I say mathematical mistake I mean, for example, you've somehow ended up in a position where you hold  , and the flop and turn results in a board of    .  For arguments sake, you know your opponent holds  , so he's on a flush draw for spades.  The odds of him making a flush are roughly 4-1, as there are four suits, and one card left to come. 

If for example there are 400 chips in the middle and you're first to bet, you should bet enough so he doesn't have the right odds to call you.  If you only bet 100 chips, he will need to call you 100 bet against a pot of 500 chips, which is a 5-1 shot on a pot he has a 4-1 chance of winning... if this hand was played 1,000,000, in the long run the correct mathematical option would be for him to call.  However, if you bet 200 chips, then he has to put 200 chips in to a 600 pot, which gives him 3-1 odds with a 4-1 chance of making the hand.  He should therefore mathematically not call. 

At the end of the day, no hand is invincible - you just need to make sure you make the correct sized bets so that if your opponents calls, he is a making a mistake.  In the short term he might win a few hands, but in the long run things should even out in your favour and you should be the winner.  It can be frustrating starting out!

That was a bit of a rant, but as I said, if you want to progress the best way is to get a few good books, and play a lot of free / low level poker.  Good luck!

[TightEnd]

If they never fold


a) don't bluff

b) don't give them odds to hit, if they hit do they are making a mistake (small comfort)

c) size you value bets correctly when you have the goods

[Royal Flush]

When I say mathematical mistake I mean, for example, you've somehow ended up in a position where you hold  , and the flop and turn results in a board of    .  For arguments sake, you know your opponent holds  , so he's on a flush draw for spades.  The odds of him making a flush are roughly 4-1, as there are four suits, and one card left to come. 

If for example there are 400 chips in the middle and you're first to bet, you should bet enough so he doesn't have the right odds to call you.  If you only bet 100 chips, he will need to call you 100 bet against a pot of 500 chips, which is a 5-1 shot on a pot he has a 4-1 chance of winning... if this hand was played 1,000,000, in the long run the correct mathematical option would be for him to call.  However, if you bet 200 chips, then he has to put 200 chips in to a 600 pot, which gives him 3-1 odds with a 4-1 chance of making the hand.  He should therefore mathematically not call. 

I call all day long there, i am always getting a VB on the river.

[rivered]

hehe, alright, cryptic, bet a bit more when you're up against real fish like flushy.

[totalise]

You beat these people not merely by offering them wrong odds, but by offering them rediculously wrong odds. Betting the pot or overbetting the pot on the turn lays them less then 2-1, so its a pretty huge mistake.. obviously you dont bet here to make them fold, but you bet here because you are sure they will call, so if they are calling a pot sized bet.. take advantage of it. Books will try and get you to bet so they make small mistakes (hence the first line).. you want to bet so they make really huge mistakes.. and they do, often.

The problem people have when playing calling stations is they play rite into their hands...


a)they flop big hands and play it slow, to try and trap, but then they end up playing small pots and then getting busy on the river when the caller has nothing left to call for, he either made a second best hand, so he calls one small river bet, or he makes a better hand then top set, and takes your stack. Dont do that.

b) when they flop big draws, they try and play it fast on the assumption that they have good odds if they are called, and win pots without showdown when people fold. Calling stations dont fold, so playing draws fast is a real mistake. Play them passive, CS'ers give you awesome odds to draw, so take the odds and get money from them when you hit. When your Fold Equity is diminished, so is the appeal of playing draws fast.

This is exploitable against good players, but you aren't playing good players, so you dont give a monkeys about that

Profit source in poker comes in high degrees from people making mistakes, calling stations make more mistakes then anyone as long as you give them a chance to do so. Play your big hands very fast and your drawing hands passive, and just dont bluff

[TightEnd]

Play your big hands very fast and your drawing hands passive, and just dont bluff

perfect.

[Royal Flush]

hehe, alright, cryptic, bet a bit more when you're up against real fish like flushy.

You pass a FD getting 3-1? With a betting round to go....?

[stallyon]

i've had a very bad run of cards recently on tribeca sites with people calling large raises with K2 off, 53 off - even hands that Flushy would normally chuck (though I do struggle to think of one  )...this doesnt mean that I'm a bad player...when you push all in with Aces and someone calls with a K2 only to have them hit trip or trip then is that a bad play from my part? Dont think so (but could be wrong)

[rivered]

hehe, alright, cryptic, bet a bit more when you're up against real fish like flushy.

You pass a FD getting 3-1? With a betting round to go....?

Just jesting captain    I call... but just trying to make a simple example and pitch it at the right level.... thought I'd leave implied odds etc for now as I'm assuming cryptic is fairly new to it all.  But fair play, make bigger bets against the calling stations as they do make bigger mistakes, and if you're on the flip side, it's a worth a call with marginal odds as if you hit you'll probably make up the difference in river bets if you make them the right size...

[Pab]

I would tend to agree with flushy, more so when in position, as if u check call all the way down then fire out on the river, a flush is apparent to even the fishiest opponents.