Posted by: dpommo Aug 16 2005, 11:42 PM
Sorry that my first ever post on this forum has to be of this nature, but read an opinion of yours on the hendon mob forum which puzzled me somewhat. In regard to the player who had backed himself to win tonights Mob forum game, and then offered the other 2 players a deal when 3 handed...
Are you being honest when you say you would sooner see the bookies avoid a massacre than see another punter/poker player pull off a very brave and thoroughly deserved coup? No cheating in any way went on, the player in question just wanted to offer a deal that saw everyone winners, bar your friend the bookies.
Very sad day when other "poker players" take the side of the corporation that is trying fleece us all.
I'm sure I'll be welcomed to the forum with open arms, but your views on this amaze me.
Posted by: omahahigh Aug 17 2005, 12:00 AM
I disagree entirely, i am involved in the bookmaking industry and it simply is not on.
A bookmaker will offer you odds on an outcome of an event essentially as a wager between two people, bookmaker says this will happen and you say this will happen and he is willing to take you on in a wager.
the fact that millions of mug punters take on the bookies without any decent or well informed opinion on the outcome of an event is their fault, certainly not the bookmakers.
Corrupt betting events in anyway are not the acts of gentlemen, if your playing pool with your friend for a fiver would you cheat to win?
Because it is anonymous it doesn't amke it right.
Posted by: dpommo Aug 17 2005, 12:06 AM
An unbiased opinion then...
Posted by: Karabiner Aug 17 2005, 12:12 AM
In all fairness do you not think that it is seriously naive of the bookmaker
to take bets on a tournament where deals are allowed ?
Some sites allow deals others do not.
The bookmaking profession generally are quite happy to take advantage
of situations which arise in their favour, so IMO speaking as a punter,
what goes around comes around.
Posted by: Dubai Aug 17 2005, 12:16 AM
Pretty naieve to rack up £25k liabailities on a player in a $25 tournament!
Posted by: omahahigh Aug 17 2005, 12:23 AM
which bookmaker?
it is naive. If a bookie offers a wrong price that is tough luck but to fix the result is wrong.
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 12:25 AM
I had chip lead with 3 left. Suggested deal, Joe Beevers said not allowed. We played on.
That was it.
Got ul came 2nd, and people saying my E/W bet shouldnt be paid!! Even though i was already in last 3, so had landed the e/w already.. Madness.
Stan James bookmaker.
Posted by: ifm Aug 17 2005, 12:39 AM
just read thru the thread, gotta agree the e/w should stand but bookies don't HAVE to pay any bet believe it or not.
Think maybe you shoulda got your money before this was mentioned though.
ian
Posted by: dpommo Aug 17 2005, 12:41 AM
Ian,
I know new laws were proposed to say that bookies no longer have that option, I was 99% sure they had been put in place now?
Posted by: ifm Aug 17 2005, 12:48 AM
never heard that mate.
i once had a pal who put £10k on a horse that won but the bookies refused to pay out!!
returned his bet though..............
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 12:51 AM
Did you offer the other players more money than could be accepted as a fair deal ? if you didnt then i see nothing wrong in offering the deal... if however you tried to induce them to accept the deal by offering more money than the prizes that were on offer then im afraid you would be a cheat in my opinion.
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 12:52 AM
test
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 12:53 AM
Dubai_Mill> any chance of a deal?
[Observer]JoeBeevers> unlikely lol
> Dubai_Mill, you have 10 seconds to respond
Dubai_Mill> makes sense fo rme to do deal
[Observer]JoeBeevers> BigBrother is watching
Dubai_Mill> thats ok Joe i *ume?
> Neeko7 wins 4,800
Pilf> dont know how we'd work that
Dubai_Mill> i pay u both more than ud think
[Observer]JoeBeevers> dont ask me...but i've never seen it on prima
> Pilf wins 59,780 with a Straight, Ace high
Dubai_Mill> COMegfgbfdgsfd]fsdsdgf
Dubai_Mill> sodfasdp
Dubai_Mill> gsdlpgvfd]g]kfd
[Observer]JoeBeevers> try calling 08000 351139
> Dubai_Mill wins 2,400
Dubai_Mill> LISTENB
Pilf> sorry. a bit
Dubai_Mill> STOP FOR 1 SEC
Dubai_Mill> il PAY YOU BOTH £1000
Dubai_Mill> OK
[Observer]HoneyMonster> 39,27,17,7, now 4th........what position next time?
Dubai_Mill> £1000 each
Dubai_Mill> is that ok
> Dubai_Mill, you have 10 seconds to respond
Pilf>

> Dubai_Mill, you have 5 seconds to respond
[Observer]JoeBeevers> Dubai...i suggest you are careful
> Pilf wins 8,800
[Observer]HoneyMonster> *
Dubai_Mill> Joe its allowed no?
> Dubai_Mill, you have 10 seconds to respond
Dubai_Mill> this is a poker tourny
[Observer]HoneyMonster> you can't do deals like that!
[Observer]JoeBeevers> i dont speak for

...but i would suggest you are careful
Dubai_Mill> OK mate
Dubai_Mill> no rpibs thanks
> Neeko7 wins 4,800
> Dubai_Mill wins 2,400
[Observer]JoeBeevers> i cant say so...you have to ask

,,,and i doubt it if you want to win your bet
Dubai_Mill> ok
Dubai_Mill> fair play
Posted by: omahahigh Aug 17 2005, 01:02 AM
bookies are under no obligation to pay any bet out by law although most are members of ibas which is an independent regulation body.
In your case they would not have to pay you and ibas would support their decision probably.
Posted by: ifm Aug 17 2005, 01:02 AM
never affected the outcome so i see nothing wrong, though if they had agreed i think you woulda lost all bets and £2k on top!!
I see what you were doing but i really feel this ain't right, f**k the bookies by all means but it ain't a deal in the poker sense, you aren't offering to split the prize money....offering them money to throw it instead, BIG difference.
Ian
Posted by: Davey Newth Aug 17 2005, 01:03 AM
very sad
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 01:05 AM
that makes him a CHEAT im my book !!
Posted by: Dubai Aug 17 2005, 01:08 AM
But because i have a vested interest in the result, effectively the price fund for me is worth more, so im offering them money from that.
Doesnt matter a deal wasnt done.
So name 1 reason why they shouldnt pay te each way bit?
bearing in mind i was down to 3 which was e/w bit when i offered deal. Complete rubbish im sure they wil pay.
Posted by: ifm Aug 17 2005, 01:14 AM
how can he be a cheat when he didn't cheat?
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 01:17 AM
ok, i will rephrase that
That makes him an ATTEMPTED CHEAT !!!
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 01:20 AM
It is a matter of intent. An attempt was made.
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 01:20 AM
It used to be said that a wager was binding in honour only. The betting fraternity accepted this and a strong industry developed. So you have to look at whether, in this case, both parties have acted honourably or has one side tried to, let's say, act less than honourably. Whilst an each way bet has two parts both are linked very closely.
Yes, sad indeed.
Posted by: Dubai Aug 17 2005, 01:21 AM
I didnt realise any maliciousness in it. Maybe i was naieve offering it. Live and learn, Financially it made sense for me and poker is a business
IM not a cheat. Maybe naieve, but not a cheat.
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 01:22 AM
how about this for a defence I tried to shoot him, but i missed ??
Think about it , he tried to influnce the result of a fair competition in order to gain money, that makes him a CHEAT whether or not he was successful.
Posted by: Dubai Aug 17 2005, 01:26 AM
In a live tourny,. It is considered fair to finish as u are with 3 left. As long as everyone is financially happy. That was all i was trying to do. it wasnt like i was low stacked and trying to buy the tourny. On some sites you can do deals. i dont play Prima that often and didnt know it was a massive no no.
Nice to see all the crytics as Guests.
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 01:27 AM
nothing malicious? no but certainly greedy.
Posted by: Dubai Aug 17 2005, 01:28 AM
Yes greedy of course.
All poker players are greedy. I will admit to being greedy and naieve. I am not a cheat though.
Posted by: Davey Newth Aug 17 2005, 01:33 AM
Please do not attempt to label ALL poker players as greedy. I for one object strongly to that.
I do feel the events that unfolded were indeed very sad. Very sad because of the effect that these events may have on poker, a game that many people (myself included) have spent a number of years promoting.
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 01:35 AM
on most sites you can do deals, but yours was hardly a deal, you were actually bribing players to take a dive, now sorry if you dont like the word CHEAT but what you did was try and CHEAT the bookies out of money.
Naive ?? perhaps
Foolish ?? probably
greedy ?? definately
Cheat ?? going by the dictionary definition, im afraid you are.
Posted by: Robert HM Aug 17 2005, 01:43 AM
Hi Dubai. Cutting away from the main part of the problem.
What I do have an incy wincy problem with are the comments at the end of the comp, I was there, knocked out in 7th as The_Brief. You say that the poker is a business, yes it is for some players and you are a talented player who has played for a while it seems, and you certainly are aware that you should have been quoted at a lot shorter price So why can't you take the beats in your stride and act professionally, what you said to a fellow player was a "tad" over the top, calling his plays into question and describing him, amongst over things, as pathetic. I think it was also wrong to tell the other player HE had lost you £20k.
I got knocked out as second chip leader, only just covered by another player, I got my chips in when ahead but got stuffed, I probably lost a few hundred dollars by that bit of bad luck but my reaction was different.
Posted by: Dubai Aug 17 2005, 01:47 AM
Just emotion mate, had rough time recently. Just built up frustration. Of course bad losing is unacceptable, id never say anythign live but i bet everyones been there.
I did say on THM forum well played to the other player and of course didnt mean what i said. Id happily buy him a pint if i met him.
Posted by: Robert HM Aug 17 2005, 01:47 AM
QUOTE (dpommo @ Aug 16 2005, 11:42 PM)
I'm sure I'll be welcomed to the forum with open arms, but your views on this amaze me.
By the way... welcome, missed that in all the fuss.
Now lets say lessons have been learned and interesting questions posed and get all lovey dovey again
Posted by: ifm Aug 17 2005, 01:57 AM
QUOTE (Guest @ Aug 17 2005, 01:22 AM)
how about this for a defence I tried to shoot him, but i missed ??
Think about it , he tried to influnce the result of a fair competition in order to gain money, that makes him a CHEAT whether or not he was successful.
huh? you won't get done for murder if you miss mate.
Anyway, i agree with Dubai in one thing.......come on folks show your faces.
Welcome all, it is a friendly place to be honest
Posted by: Davey Newth Aug 17 2005, 02:03 AM
I think the point the poster was making is that you would be still guilty of a crime albeit the lesser one of attempted murder.
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 02:03 AM
huh? you won't get done for murder if you miss mate.
exactly, but you would get done for ATTEMPTED murder
its about intent, at the end of the day the guy ATTEMPTED to cheat, end of/full stop/case closed.
NEXT !!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: ifm Aug 17 2005, 02:11 AM
all i am saying is that he didn't cheat, tried to yes but didn't.
not guilty.
just to make my position clear, when i said i saw nothing wrong i was referring to the payout for the e/w bet.
I too believe it was totally wrong, but i'm not sure if i could resist what he did to make £20k, but then i like to think i'm honest enough to admit that.
Ian
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 02:20 AM
all i am saying is that he didn't cheat, tried to yes but didn't.
not guilty.
I too believe it was totally wrong,
you will make your mind up one day.
Posted by: James Aug 17 2005, 02:22 AM
Flame me to death, but he tried to make a deal in a poker comp. So what???
Players do deals in poker all the time, yet i never hear people saying they are cheats. I really dont understand how this guy has 'cheated'. It is comon to win tournaments through a deal. So why does the fact that the guy had money on himself suddenly make him a cheat???
Posted by: Ian Aug 17 2005, 02:25 AM
i think it was the fact that e offered them £1000 each, which i think was more money than was in the pool...
Posted by: ifm Aug 17 2005, 02:28 AM
my mind is made up if you read what i said.
anyway this is blonde now mate, we have a happy and friendly environment here and we all work hard to maintain that.
So if you would like to continue our debate, sign up and PM me.
Ian
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 02:31 AM
no need ifm, im not having a go at you, just suggesting you look up INTENT in a dictionary
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 02:34 AM
and from what you are saying , i assume that you believe that because the deal wasnt accepted that its ok, but if the deal was accepted you would horsewhip Dubai through the streets with a banner round his neck saying CHEAT !!!
Double standards mate.
Posted by: Robert HM Aug 17 2005, 02:37 AM
QUOTE (Guest @ Aug 17 2005, 02:31 AM)
no need ifm, im not having a go at you, just suggesting you look up INTENT in a dictionary
Oii!!!
3 years studying for a law degree, post grad course at the College of Law, articles, years setting up a defence firm and you waste all of that by looking "intent" up in a dictionary. You could at least offer to pay me to look it up for you!!
Sheeesh, I don't know.
Posted by: Guest Aug 17 2005, 02:38 AM
sorry robert, send me your bill and i will see what i can do
Posted by: ifm Aug 17 2005, 02:38 AM
I am quite happy to explain a few things to you mate, but not on here as it is not the place.
Ian