Launch of the Amateur Poker Association & Tour (APAT)

[matt674]

5. Deals. This is different. the first three finishers receive gold silver and bronze medals representing if you like the ultimate amateur ethos we see in sporting amateur events. The added value package is unsplittable and the aim is to have a competitive final table through to the end with no one in say 8th hanging on to ladder up for £75 more...play to win!

So will deals be allowed for the cash prizes or not?

"play to win" - fair enough, but to your average recreational player when they see that the difference between 1st place and 4th place is somewhere in the region of £1800 (using a flat payaout structure of 30% for 1st and 10% for 4th) then this is a substantial jump.

Its been said many times before but at the end of the day its the competitors money that makes up the prizepool, surely its therefore upto the competitors at the end of the day how they want to split it? Yes once the deal has been done then there is still a huge prize for the winner - this should ensure that the tournament is still played properly to a finish rather than people just going all in with any two cards as there is nothing left to play for.

[dan]

i have not really posted on this until now because everyone has been throwing questions up in the air which is to be expected.
the biggest debate seems to be on the "who is classed as a pro?" i think  anybody who is sponsored is obviously a pro. alot of the pros that aren't sponsored but play all the circuit events, EPT, WSOP aren't likely to want to bother.

i don't think you can say if you have won £x,xxx then you are a pro. just one example of that is john mcgrane who posts on here as cupcake. i don't wont to go around talking about john's finances ( to be honest i don't know anything about them ) but john was fortunate enough to finish 18th in last year WSOP and won $350k. john has put most of his winnings on buying a house for himself and his family. he does not even talk about his outstanding achievement as he is a very modest guy. John still works and still plays poker for fun. infact we both play at the same level buy ins, therefore john would be excluded from entering an event because he was fortunate to have a great result. now i know john wont mind me saying this this but he is an amateur poker player.

i cant remember who said it now i think it might have been flushie but the best way to decide who is a pro is to look at the European rankings. if a player is in the top 200/300/400 or whatever then they obviously play alot of ranking/ high buy in events and should be consider "a pro".

going back to APAT, i think in large it is a good idea and the way he runs this forum( with help from others, i know) then i couldn't think of anybody better to run it than tikay.

i think there are a few things that need to be ironed out but that is normal for a new organisation. i personally don't think the way you can buy in is perfect. it is commented that the tournament will finish earlier because people have to go to work, but if the buy in for event 1 starts at midnight on the 1st sept then everybody has to stay up to then on a work night to register.

As for APAT making a profit I'm not sure that is right either. if membership fees, juice go back into getting more for the players than fine, if it goes towards expenses/wages for the organisers then fine because to be fair how many people would want to take this on.

I hope this is a success and fair play to tikay, tighty, Mel and desd for doing this good luck.

[TightEnd]

5. Deals. This is different. the first three finishers receive gold silver and bronze medals representing if you like the ultimate amateur ethos we see in sporting amateur events. The added value package is unsplittable and the aim is to have a competitive final table through to the end with no one in say 8th hanging on to ladder up for £75 more...play to win!

So will deals be allowed for the cash prizes or not?

"play to win" - fair enough, but to your average recreational player when they see that the difference between 1st place and 4th place is somewhere in the region of £1800 (using a flat payaout structure of 30% for 1st and 10% for 4th) then this is a substantial jump.

Its been said many times before but at the end of the day its the competitors money that makes up the prizepool, surely its therefore upto the competitors at the end of the day how they want to split it? Yes once the deal has been done then there is still a huge prize for the winner - this should ensure that the tournament is still played properly to a finish rather than people just going all in with any two cards as there is nothing left to play for.

As it stands, payout to finalists will be by cheque in the stated amounts for each finisher by position

[Royal Flush]

James

1. the holding company is profit making, the Association is non profit. An organisation in APL (the holding company) that is generating no profit has no chance to be professional in its dealings with the various stakeholders that it will seek to interact with on behalf of its members...websites cost money to maintain, events cost money to put on etc etc (usually apat will not be receiving juice the venue will, the bradway is an exception). I think you will find that apat offers in time value for money for its members. I am surprised that you with your background think profit is a dirty word. Acceptable levels of profit are the lifeblood of business. Racketeering or anti competitive behaviour clearly isn't. £10 initial fee and then £5 per annum thereafter strikes me as reasonable to cover costs, especially if the association succeeds in effecting change

Ok, what is the job of the holding company, it is taking money out of the APAT? Is that right? I am not too versed in these matters.

3. I believe a collective voice can represent the vast majority of players in this country who are recreational or amateur. How many times have we seen comments that people do not like rules being different across say the same chain of casinos? We can also work with gaming organistations and sponsors towards gaining regular added value for people wherever they are playing

I haven't seen many amateurs complain about standardised rules, infact i have only ever heard that from pro's! It is something that needs addressing, but i do not think it is within the remit of an amateur association. How do you propose getting sponsorship for weekly events? In Brighton we are lucky enough that the poker league is sponsored. I don't see how you would make that happen on anything other than an individual case.

4. The structure. No 150-300 but there is 75-100. No 800-1600 but there is 500-1000 which you never see elswhere. By the time the 800-1600 level is missed players will have been playing for over 6 hours and the average stack will be 60kish. Frankly suggestions that this is a crapshoot demean someone as intellligent as yourself.

The idea i thought was to have an event at a smaller price but similar structure to that of a big buyin event. The vic took loads of flak for not having a 150-300 level, imagine how bad it would have been with no 800-1600! Why have a 8k-16k and no 800-1600? It just doesn't make any sense. It will become a crapshoot as soon as you go from 600-1200 to 1k-2k. There is no need for a 500-1000 level, well not at the expense of the 800-1600 anyway.

5. Deals. This is different. the first three finishers receive gold silver and bronze medals representing if you like the ultimate amateur ethos we see in sporting amateur events. The added value package is unsplittable and the aim is to have a competitive final table through to the end with no one in say 8th hanging on to ladder up for £75 more...play to win!

Surely if you deal then you are more likely to get a competitive final given the added money that first place will get. People wont be trying to sneak up the prize ladder once a deal is done, they will be going for gold!

6. The buffet is being provided free by the Broadway. The players juice is not paying for it. As I said previously the players juice is going to fund other added value items and expenses.

My apologies i must have misread an earlier thread. What are these added items and expenses? And are they added items if the players have paid for them?

[Dewi_cool]

Any feedback on membership figures Tighty? even though only launched yesterday would give an indication.

[TightEnd]

i think there are a few things that need to be ironed out but that is normal for a new organisation. i personally don't think the way you can buy in is perfect. it is commented that the tournament will finish earlier because people have to go to work, but if the buy in for event 1 starts at midnight on the 1st sept then everybody has to stay up to then on a work night to register.

As for APAT making a profit I'm not sure that is right either. if membership fees, juice go back into getting more for the players than fine, if it goes towards expenses/wages for the organisers then fine because to be fair how many people would want to take this on.

I have said repeatedly on the thread that I am not comfortable with a midnight click fest for 120 seats. We are looking at alternatives, possibly a ballot

None of the organisers are waged

[TightEnd]

Any feedback on membership figures Tighty? even though only launched yesterday would give an indication.

several hundred have joined as members

It was 200 on Day 1 alone

[matt674]

As it stands, payout to finalists will be by cheque in the stated amounts for each finisher by position

Why by cheque - what is wrong with cash?

[totalise]

All,

I just want to say that despite my initial doubts about this association, I was won over when it became apparent to me they were focusing on the real important issues that most amateurs face with regards to getting started in live poker:

Poker At The Olympics

The APAT is committed to the continuing development of poker as a respectable, regulated, competitive amateur activity.

As a result of poker’s worldwide popularity, the APAT are determining the feasibility of lobbying for the inclusion of amateur poker as a trial event within the 2012 Olympic Games.

The APAT will consult with the appropriate bodies, including the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games (“LOCOG”), before finalising our position on whether a poker tournament would meet the criteria for acceptance as a credible Olympic event, and determining our next course of action.

Organisations that really attack the main issues with grass-roots poker such as the oft debated olympics issue head-on,  will continue to recieve my 100% backing

[Royal Flush]

All,

I just want to say that despite my initial doubts about this association, I was won over when it became apparent to me they were focusing on the real important issues that most amateurs face with regards to getting started in live poker:

Poker At The Olympics

The APAT is committed to the continuing development of poker as a respectable, regulated, competitive amateur activity.

As a result of poker’s worldwide popularity, the APAT are determining the feasibility of lobbying for the inclusion of amateur poker as a trial event within the 2012 Olympic Games.

The APAT will consult with the appropriate bodies, including the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games (“LOCOG”), before finalising our position on whether a poker tournament would meet the criteria for acceptance as a credible Olympic event, and determining our next course of action.

Organisations that really attack the main issues with grass-roots poker such as the oft debated olympics issue head-on,  will continue to recieve my 100% backing

 

[TightEnd]

nothing is wrong with cash Matt, we are collecting the money online first as you know and will draw cheques to the preannounced prize structure

James...the items are added value compared to other comps...trophies, mememtoes, lunch for all finalists with tikay, name badges, welcome packs etc

as to your other questions, i will pass your feedbackj on (code, you are a terrier who will not let go of my leg)

totalise, care to come and talk to Seb Coe with me?

[Wardonkey]

Totalise 

[Karabiner]

Karabiner, respectfully, I disagree

I do not think one's bankroll affects the definition of amateur or professional at all

If Mr Poker Pro (unsponsored but no other source of income) wins the lottery he has capital behind him but if he has no other source of income and still plays poker he is still a pro.

However what this thread has established is the many grey areas that we are going away to look at and see if we can find an accomodation for the various strands of thought

Well it depends how you look at this:

If I sell my property, I am now "retired".

I do not play poker for a living and pay the bills out of my profits; poker is my little money-making hobby.

There is an incrdible amount of grey area here and I don't envy your task, but I'm all in favour of the benefits that can be derived from a united voice to improve things for the average poker-player, a cause that I was championing on this forum before I saw you on here.

[Royal Flush]

lunch for all finalists with tikay

Shouldn't that be for the first 9 out as a punishment?

[TightEnd]

fair point

For real ignominy you get to go the lunch too