Whats your move?

[totalise]

. I really dont see the point in min raising here-it might look like a strong play such as what you would do with aces or kings

yeah thats the point..

but I think it just gives other players too much of a opportunity to outdraw you with holdings such as KQsuited or even players with pairs between 7's and 10's to either call and make a play with no Ace or jack on flop or go over the top of you and make your decision even harder

if they are calling 6k with hero having 10k behind with hands like QKs 1010/77, then its really really likely that they are calling a push, so that doesn't matter much, naturally its better if they call the min-raise because it gives them a chance to miss on the flop and fold, or see over-cards to their middling pair and fold, whereas if you jam and they call, they see all 5 cards by default... and notice you are UTG, so you have Irish position on the flop (unless a blind calls you) you can just slam it in w/e comes

It also doesn't matter if the blinds do a stop and go, in fact it might well encourage someone from the BB to do a stop and go with some hand like K9 or QJ, which you naturally will insta-call no matter what happens on the flop/pre-flop. Your chips are going in the middle on this hand, thats decided before the hand, I am just toying with the idea of the min-raise being a better spot then just slamming your chips in pre. You naturally lay the BB pretty good odds with a hand like 78 to flop a pair and stick it in, but they are left unpaired 66% of the time, and you still have outs if they do make a pair.

don't get me wrong, I would do a flushy here 100% of the time, am just playing around with other ideas coz I'm bored and on the surface it doesn't seem to have a lot of downside

[Hairydude]

The only problem with going all in however is that (if it is an experienced final table) all players at the table will be aware that you have to have a decent hand going all in UTG- so your only going to get called by a monster and at best you will probably be 50/50, but with the blinds so big you will be hoping to maybe just win the blinds and at least get another round to pick up a good hand, or in the off chance win a race or get called by KQ or A10suited(doubtful tho) and be a favourite

[boldie]

Dump it 

Too many players to get through in my opinion.

You can work out the chance of being called by a better hand if you come up with a likely calling hand range here.

one of the benefits of moving all in is that it's a fairly healthy chunk of chips apperantly. avg only 20k so most people won't mess about with you, and the first hand at the final table is ussually played very tight by most players...I wouldn't be surprised if everyone folds to him.

BTW 20k average stack 9 players but a 3k bb??

[Royal Flush]

T, the problem is multiple callers.

As for what calls you, people must play in diffrent places to me! I think you get looked up by a lot of worse hands aswell, the BB's range to call here is huge.

The UTG push range here is pretty much any 2 cards.

[totalise]

maybe, but if the av stack is 20k, how likely are multiple callers if its gonna be 30% of their stack? I have no idea how live FT's play so you could be dead right.. but online I find that people have a deathly fear of utg min-raises

[Hairydude]

one of the benefits of moving all in is that it's a fairly healthy chunk of chips apperantly. avg only 20k so most people won't mess about with you, and the first hand at the final table is ussually played very tight by most players...I wouldn't be surprised if everyone folds to him.

BTW 20k average stack 9 players but a 3k bb??
[/quote]

I was thinking that too-it sounds like a terrible structure at a final table if the average chip stack is less than 7xBB

[Royal Flush]

T, what hands would you pass UTG with that few chips?

[totalise]

T, what hands would you pass UTG with that few chips?

not many, the real raggedy ass hands like 9/3 and 2/7 I would fold, I think it makes more sense to just get your chips in on the BB then stack off UTG if you get dealt mess like that.

[Horneris]

Id Fold it. Too many people still to act. Not a very strong hand.

[daviebhoy]

. I really dont see the point in min raising here-it might look like a strong play such as what you would do with aces or kings

yeah thats the point..

I like this thinking. This would be a great play if you had previously sent all your chips in a couple of times. But, if it is the first hand of the final table then by minimum raising you are allowing a lot of other hands to come in over the top of you and you are then in a position where you may have to call an all-in bet with AJ. You would much rather beat any opponent into the pot. In this situation discussed I think you have to go all-in.

However, if you had sent your chips in a couple of times and either won or not been called then the minimum raise will look very suspicious. A big stack will probably still look you up but chances are you will be ahead most of the time. That play then sets you up nicely to get some action if you are lucky enough to pick up a big pocket pair soon afterwards to make another minimum raise.

dn

[tantrum]

How many got paid?

The good thing of pushing or raising from UTG is that usually it means that you must have a strong holding so unless you are with total maniacs, your push will make a lot of people to fold to your all in.

I have been playing recently and experimenting with raises from UTG or E.P., i found this more powerful than normal late position raise- their reason will be in order for me to push from UTG i have to have very strong holding....


So I would go all in....

If they are decent players then the chances that you run into AA/KK/QQ are slim so most probably everyone will fold to u.

3.5 M - you might not have a chance of better hand and be blinded out.

[SupaMonkey]

I don't think you need a better hand.

On the BB/SB you go allin if you get limpers. On the SB you go allin if everyone folds to you and on the button/cutoff/cutoff-1 you go allin with anything.

[Royal Flush]

If they are decent players then the chances that you run into AA/KK/QQ are slim so most probably everyone will fold to u.

If they are good players the calling range is much bigger than AA KK QQ!

[tantrum]

Yes, but don't you think that if he raises from UTG, the chances are that they will put him on a better hand then if he would do it from the later position?

I found that at the final tables steals from UTG and E.P are more effective if played against good players.

Of course 8 players acting behind you is a very poor description of the table.



With AJ I would push all in at one table and fold at the other from UTG or E.P
At one table I will raise from UTG/E.P with any two every 2 orbits, and at other table I won't bother.

So the very original question is not detailed enough to give an answer,

the only correct answer to this post should be

It all depends on the table and my image...

End game is usually a game of players rather then cards, finding weak spots and exploiting situations, playing position and not so much what one have in their hand.

[Royal Flush]

He has 5.5 BB's there are not many hands he can pass UTG. His folding equity after this hand is non existent. I am looking for anything in the top 80% of hands to push here. The only things i am folding are the triple gap off suit hands, T3, 82, 52 etc. If i happen to find a hand in the top 10% of starting hands when i have 5.5bb and am under the gun there is not a chance in hell i am ever passing. The make up of the table or my image is irrelevant.