Setting up a Poker Room

[Royal Flush]

The poker club i currently play at cost 10k to set up including all licenses, tables etc.

They are currently charging a rake of 10% upto a maximum of £5 in any hand. So playing 1/2 PL you can win a £500 pot and only pay £5 rake which I think is pretty good. With 2 tables going from 7.30 till 3am they are making a hell of a profit on the rake side. They are paying 2 dealers the minimum wage but obviously tips is boosting their income, and obviously pro dealers give you more hands per hour, as opposed to self dealt. From what I have seen they are making alot of money from the Rake side. Then they are doing both Food and Drink.

I know they are making a decent whack currently, but the place we are looking at would exceed these targets hugely we believe. Alot of Americans based around the area, and the area is well known for being a town of Gamblers.

THANKS FLUSHY FOR YOUR INFORMATIVE POST

That place is illegal, what 'licence' do they hold?

Rake on a cash game is ilegal in the UK.

[Nem]

My first thought was LOL read the DTD thread but if you read Swimming with the Devilfish or Education of a poker player, you read about people making money out of just having a room with a poker table. Are those days really gone now? Is everyone who used to play in places like this playing in casinos or gutshot style places?

Perhaps there is still room in the market for this kind of small scale poker room?

So was mine!

[AndrewT]

Mikky, As I understand it, once you pay your membership fee for Roy's club, there are no further charges of any kind to play poker. No rake, no service charge, no seat hire - nothing. Dealers are not paid. If you pay the membership fee, the club makes exactly the same amount of money from you as if you didn't play poker at all.

Gutshot rakes pots - there is no 'grey area' here, that's illegal.

EDIT: Blimey, I'm agreeing with Flushy. Is there some sort of support group I can join to deal with the trauma?

[mikkyT]

For some idea of what it takes to open up a poker room read Rob's thread about DTD - http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0

Rob is doing everything properly and above board - if you don't want to get a licence you can either do what Roy Houghton is doing, and open a private member's club with high membership fee (and make no money at all directly from the poker)

What Roy Houghton is doing is also illegal. Under the 1967 Gaming Act, private members clubs are permitted to run games of equal chance without registering under the act (avoiding the local authority gaming folk etc) as long as the main purpose of the private members club is not to be running games of equal chance. They can also only charge a certain amount for covering costs of running the game of equal chance, a very small percentage. If they register under the act as a private members club, they are permitted to charge a little bit more for running the game. Roys club is clearly set up for the purpose of playing poker and as such illegal.

IMPORTANT BIT:
What the Gutshot (and Cincins, Roys club etc) is doing, is actually a grey area with regards to "games of equal chance". Cincins is also a private members club and regardless of having "high membership fees" or not, is also illegal by definintion of the act. However, games of equal chance are covered but poker is not. Why? Well, would you describe poker as a game of equal chance? Granted, some games may be akin to bingo or craps, but in general, poker is a game of skill based upon incomplete information. And therein lies the crux of the Gutshot courtcase which should give the industry a lankmark ruling on the future of other "illegal" clubs. However, it becomes a two edged sword as it means organised crime could (prolly will) make a move into such clubs.

The 2007 act will sort much of this out, I believe...

So Roy's place is illegal but the Gutshot is a grey area?

Erm, thats not what I meant! Post editted

[smithy69]

I don't know mate- they are licensed, but what license I have no idea.

I know gaming officials have ok'd the place, but thats it. I have only recently started going so not too sure on history

[mikkyT]

Mikky, As I understand it, once you pay your membership fee for Roy's club, there are no further charges of any kind to play poker. No rake, no service charge, no seat hire - nothing. Dealers are not paid. If you pay the membership fee, the club makes exactly the same amount of money from you as if you didn't play poker at all.

Gutshot rakes pots - there is no 'grey area' here, that's illegal.

EDIT: Blimey, I'm agreeing with Flushy. Is there some sort of support group I can join to deal with the trauma?

It doesn't matter - having a private members club purely for the purpose of providing "games of equal chance" is JUST as illegal as raking pots in cash games. Regardless of whether membership has a fee or not. If this was a well established Miners Welfare or local Conservatives Club that had decided to do a regular "poker night" then it would be acceptable under the act.

So Roys club sits firmly in the "Gutshot" camp, and must also await the outcome of the court case to find out what it is doing is illegal or not.

[Nem]

I read somewhere that if you class the premises that you rake the tables as your home address, you can get away with it...

[Exorcism]

Roy Houghton - in his interview with UK Poker News website - says he's been to the Police, the Gaming Commission and the Council to clear the way, presumably using lawyers. If that is not reassurance, then nothing is. But then again, perhaps he'll be done by a one-outer!

His words were:

"We've spent a lot of time and trouble going to the Gaming Commission, the City of London, the City of London Police and it's all been done. In other words, we're starting a private members club, the facilities are totally free of charge, we are not taking rake or table money."

Link deleted

With ref to MikkyT's views, I suspect they are promoting it as a more general leisure place. Either they have good advice or they should have spoken to someone else!

[Royal Flush]

I don't know mate- they are licensed, but what license I have no idea.

I know gaming officials have ok'd the place, but thats it. I have only recently started going so not too sure on history

How do you know gaming officials ok'd the place?

Licenced to keep alligators maybe?

[bolt pp]

I don't know mate- they are licensed, but what license I have no idea.

I know gaming officials have ok'd the place, but thats it. I have only recently started going so not too sure on history

Licenced to keep alligators maybe?

Now that would be wicked!!!!! inflict 3 bad beats in a night and get thrown in the pit!!!!!!

[smithy69]

THE PLACE I PLAY AT IS A RESIDENTIAL ADDRESS THAT THEY OWN - THEY HAVE GUTTED THE HOUSE COMPLETELY AND SET IT UP AS A POKER CLUB

This would explain if Nem is correct why they charge rake

[MrMoves]

Why pay for staff, TD's, etc?

In Vegas, and in operation, were electronic tables.  Internet poker without the Internet but, retaining real life interaction as the players were all there.

No disputes, no errors, no stacks of chips.

A couple of pretty valets, a few plasma screens and away you go.  The tables are not cheap, mind.

IMO  

[AndrewT]

With ref to MikkyT's views, I suspect they are promoting it as a more general leisure place. Either they have good advice or they should have spoken to someone else!

If they're promoting it as a general leisure place, maybe they should have picked a different website address...

http://www.loosecannonpoker.com/

[Royal Flush]

Why pay for staff, TD's, etc?

In Vegas, and in operation, were electronic tables.  Internet poker without the Internet but, retaining real life interaction as the players were all there.

No disputes, no errors, no stacks of chips.

A couple of pretty valets, a few plasma screens and away you go.  The tables are not cheap, mind.

IMO 

You can't buy them either, lease only.

[Royal Flush]

THE PLACE I PLAY AT IS A RESIDENTIAL ADDRESS THAT THEY OWN - THEY HAVE GUTTED THE HOUSE COMPLETELY AND SET IT UP AS A POKER CLUB

This would explain if Nem is correct why they charge rake

Then why would they have a licence?