Why is the APAT payout structure so top heavy ?

[Ginger]

I’ve been holding back on posting on the payout structure of the first APAt event as most who have commented on it have been either ridiculed or accused of sniping (in my view anyway)

I was not fortunate enough to gain a seat for the event and to be totally honest I now believe that wasn’t such a bad thing.  If I had been present and the poker gods had smiled on me enough to get me to the final table, to then find out that after MANY hours of play I would still get the same as a 9th place finisher as a 4th placer, I would be damn well miffed - putting it very politely!!  (And not mentioning about 10th getting nothing as Jen has brought this up already) this payout would not cover the majority of peoples expenses for the weekend and as such I think it’s plain wrong IMO. 4th getting 3.3% and first getting 50% with an added 8k package I believe is ludicrous. Flushy’s payout structure was a fairer, or take 10-15% off the top and add it to the bottom to still make it a flatter structure!

The general gist of the APAt idea from what I have read is to give amateur poker players a taste of the big festival event experience at amateur buy-ins, this has been stated again and again.  Why then does the payout structure not follow this?  “It was published on the APAT site” I have read on this thread, and apparently there were no complaints, well I looked for the payout structure before the draw was made and I could not find it anywhere (something that is also being addressed I believe) possibly there would have been more comments if it was easily available?

On the subject of no deals being mentioned, is it surprising there was no mention when it was made painfully clear that they were not allowed?  and measures put in place to ensure that it would be as hard as possible to achieve (Prizes paid by cheque) Also how many people have had played live enough to know how to go about making a deal, from the reports there were many first time live players and as such they are not necessarily confident enough to stand up and say what they want, or to disagree with the structure.

I was told that I was a typical APAt member, but the more I read the more I think I’m not, I will not play a tourney that I know I will be out of pocket playing unless I finish top 3, I’ve now decided I will not play any of the events unless I have no real travel or accommodation expenses, which could mean I never play any of them…. Shame.

[Ginger]

I just want to make it clear that I love the APAt idea and think it is something that could work well for us amateurs, but I do think there are a few basic things wrong.

Teaching new players that this is what to expect breeds a new set of future Pro's to know no better IMO.

[FlyingPig]

Just becasue we are all memebers of the APAT does not meen we are new to poker. I am not new to poker. I have been playing for years. I have been playing Crib, Nap, Brag, all forms of poker for longer than I care to remember recreationally. I have been playing online for a couple of years. I know online they have different payout structures and it really annoys me when you play an MTT for 5 hours and get just above your buy in back when you go out just as you get to the money.

If you finished in the top 8% (i think) you got 4 times your buy in back. To me this was superb...

In any tournament someone will go out 1st someone will win and someone will always bubble....

As for covering expenses I dont get this......Why cant you treat it as a jolly and not a money making trip.......

I think soon players will want the APAT to put us all up in hotels.... HHmmmmm

[Ginger]

Just becasue we are all memebers of the APAT does not meen we are new to poker.

As for covering expenses I dont get this......Why cant you treat it as a jolly and not a money making trip.......

I think soon players will want the APAT to put us all up in hotels.... HHmmmmm

I don't believe I implied all APAt members where new to poker, but I did state that many were new to LIVE play (as has been reported) and IMO as such are not necessarily happy about standing up and saying they weren't happy with the structure.

When I want to have a 'jolly' I play the Blonde Bash or P4C event, that's what they are for! Just because this was a specific armature event does not mean that it should be played any different. We all play poker for different reasons, I may not be a pro but I still play poker to make money, not to lose it.

Putting us up in hotels? hmmmmm, I don't think you can seriously say anyone is going over the top with the suggestions. We have opinions, and we ARE entitled to them!

[M3boy]

Paid out by cheque?!?!??!?!

Hmmmmmmmm,,, I would want cash myself.

9th the same as 4th?  Surely this cannot be right?

[Pilf]

This debate is seemingly endless as, as said many times previous in this thread, peoples opinions are going to differ and this is partially down to the different reasons we all play poker and what we hope to get out of it.
I entered the tournament with full knowledge of the payout structure and as such wouldn't dream of complaining about it. In fact I applaud the fact that APAT have tried something a bit different to the norm after taking advice PokerStars amongst others.
Having said that, for me, in future a flatter structure would be more appropriate, and I'm sure when the time comes all members shall be consulted.
The weekend was undoubtably a HUGE success and was certainly one of the best weekends I've enjoyed this year. However if they'd have paid on Flushys structure I'd have been over £400 better off plus the first place finisher would be just as happy.
I think that maybe APAT was a victim of their own success this weekend. Everyone was enjoying themselves so much, that if they did have issue with the structure they could easily put it to the back of their minds.

[dougal7878]

Having just chatted with Dan (Mr 1st Place) and having now read all 8 long pages of pros and cons, fors and againsts, good ideas, bad ideas and all funny comments. I feel that i should throw my thoughts into the cauldron.

Having been placed 2nd and received £1800 a reasonable sum for 2 days of headaces and difficult decisions i thought the sturcture was fine. Remember this is a new organisation, where over time, trial and error it will always evolve, change and one day everybody will be happy and compllaint free. Like the organisers have stated our views are what help then grow and develop. 

In relation the prize structure, it was plain to see, prior to paying your £75 entry. If you didnt like it then, why pay and play. Like everybody said this is an Amateur organisation. Some people will have a clue about all aspects of poker, some wont. There were new players, not some new and some experienced players. It was all conducted with good spirit and i commed you all for that. It was refeshing to sit in a tourney without any bickering of any sort. I have played numerous tourneys/ events and are frustrated by the 'know-it alls' who constantly bark orders. This is a major reason newbies are scared off.

As everone has said the final table was played by individuals, im pretty sure no-one was thinking ' oh god he's just gone all in...i'll fold me a/k and hope somebody else calls him and knocks them out. True the money from 9-4 was the same i think...so it made no sense to play scared. Even when it went down to 4 handed it was still played by every individual. Look at headfs up......2 hands!

Plus the idea of a deal was jokingly discussed, but we all agreed that we wanted to play for first prize. This represented the heart and soul of the APA. Plus you cant split checks with strangers!!!!!! They may bounce!!!!

My only moan like many others was not giving 10th place some cash. But hey, everyone knew the structure.

I agree with many who have expressed their views. in all this was a solid event which over the two days was conducted and carried out with solid professionalism.

Long live the APA!

Dougla7878 (aka Mark, Mr 2nd place)

[dougal7878]

Oh plus......Fkying Pig..... you can buy my silver medal off me for one million dollars!!!!

[roverthtaeh]

I got a solution!
I came 9th, so I'll give the guy who came 4th 50 quid and a balloon and we'll call it quits!
On a serious note, if everyone posted their ideal payout structure there'd barely be two the same.
This was, after all, the inaugral event for APAT.
Success was achieved, perfection takes time.

[Teacake]

I'm firmly in the flatter structure camp & Flushies proposal looks fine to me.

How can anyone justify such a top heavy structure when a guy who busts out 4th gets the same as the fella in 9th 4 & a half hours later & misses his flight in the process thus having to fork out more dosh to get home.

This is not strictly true. The person who finished 4th got more than the person who finished 9th. 4th place got a lot more ranking points in the leaderboard. and that prize for the winner of the leaderboard is not to be sniffed at.

I hope with all the sniping and griping thats going on the team at the APAT do not get despondant and continue to remain upbeat and do a great job.

I am not sniping or griping & resent the fact that you are insinuating that I am just because I have a different opinion from some & am prepared to say so.

With all due respect I think you should take a little time to browse this forum & get to know the dynamic of it before you start coming out with comments like the one above.

[Karabiner]

I'm firmly in the flatter structure camp & Flushies proposal looks fine to me.

How can anyone justify such a top heavy structure when a guy who busts out 4th gets the same as the fella in 9th 4 & a half hours later & misses his flight in the process thus having to fork out more dosh to get home.

This is not strictly true. The person who finished 4th got more than the person who finished 9th. 4th place got a lot more ranking points in the leaderboard. and that prize for the winner of the leaderboard is not to be sniffed at.

I hope with all the sniping and griping thats going on the team at the APAT do not get despondant and continue to remain upbeat and do a great job.

I am not sniping or griping & resent the fact that you are insinuating that I am just because I have a different opinion from some & am prepared to say so.

With all due respect I think you should take a little time to browse this forum & get to know the dynamic of it before you start coming out with comments like the one above.

 

[Acidmouse]

In relation the prize structure, it was plain to see, prior to paying your £75 entry. If you didnt like it then, why pay and play.

Many reasons to play even though you think the payout structure is not 100% fair and how you would like it. It preety obvious the strucutre was too top heavy, just a matter of time till its tweaked.

Let people discuss the various merits of payout structures, without telling them to dont play if your not happy with it line.

[Eyeofsauron]

Reading this thread is quite interesting. I'm a member of APAT and really like the philosophy behind it. I've also corresponded with Tikay a couple of times, who has been very courteous in responding, despite his hectic schedule.

I'm also new to this forum, and would rather lurk in the background, at least until I'm more familiar with the forum dynamics. Whilst I'm posting, I have to say I think the "Dusk Til Dawn" thread by Rob Yong is probably the best thread I've read on any forum, since I started getting involved in poker forums since January 2003.

One thing I am unimpressed with this particular forum is the group-think mentality. I sincerely hope that if I have a difference of opinion, that people don't take that as a personal insult. I'm somewhat eccentric, especially in some of my beliefs. For instance, I believe you can only truly be friends with someone after you've seen all sides of them. My bitterest arguments have been with my closest friends. There's no ass-kissers in my small group of friends, just people I can trust with my life.

Getting to the point I was going to make. I intend to play in as many APAT events as possible, including Las Vegas. Obviously, anyone else who is truly interested in acquiring the most championship points will be trying to stick to the schedule as well. Even at this level, it's still going to amount to significant expenses. Now you might have done well in the last event at Birmingham and think to yourself that you've done well, and would like the payout structure to remain unchanged. If you make only one final table in the whole schedule, excluding a win, you may find yourself out of pocket at the end of the year. The APAT live tournaments in my mind, and correct me if I'm off the target with this, is about making poker accessible to the beginner (and non-professional seasoned players), by hosting affordable tournaments, with an opportunity to take your game to a higher level. If the payout remains top heavy, it becomes unsustainable to complete the APAT tour. Like most amateur players, I don't have a lot of cash to throw around. I don't except (or want) APAT to turn into a freeroll, but I do expect to be reasonably rewarded if I'm successful enough to reach a final table.

[AdamM]

Difference of opinion is fine, it's more about the tone. I recognise you from other fora and I hope you'll notice the tone here is different than elsewhere.

[Claw75]

I’ve been holding back on posting on the payout structure of the first APAt event as most who have commented on it have been either ridiculed or accused of sniping (in my view anyway)

I was not fortunate enough to gain a seat for the event and to be totally honest I now believe that wasn’t such a bad thing.  If I had been present and the poker gods had smiled on me enough to get me to the final table, to then find out that after MANY hours of play I would still get the same as a 9th place finisher as a 4th placer, I would be damn well miffed - putting it very politely!!  (And not mentioning about 10th getting nothing as Jen has brought this up already) this payout would not cover the majority of peoples expenses for the weekend and as such I think it’s plain wrong IMO. 4th getting 3.3% and first getting 50% with an added 8k package I believe is ludicrous. Flushy’s payout structure was a fairer, or take 10-15% off the top and add it to the bottom to still make it a flatter structure!

The general gist of the APAt idea from what I have read is to give amateur poker players a taste of the big festival event experience at amateur buy-ins, this has been stated again and again.  Why then does the payout structure not follow this?  “It was published on the APAT site” I have read on this thread, and apparently there were no complaints, well I looked for the payout structure before the draw was made and I could not find it anywhere (something that is also being addressed I believe) possibly there would have been more comments if it was easily available?

On the subject of no deals being mentioned, is it surprising there was no mention when it was made painfully clear that they were not allowed?  and measures put in place to ensure that it would be as hard as possible to achieve (Prizes paid by cheque) Also how many people have had played live enough to know how to go about making a deal, from the reports there were many first time live players and as such they are not necessarily confident enough to stand up and say what they want, or to disagree with the structure.

I was told that I was a typical APAt member, but the more I read the more I think I’m not, I will not play a tourney that I know I will be out of pocket playing unless I finish top 3, I’ve now decided I will not play any of the events unless I have no real travel or accommodation expenses, which could mean I never play any of them…. Shame.

I've not joined APAT yet simply because I have been waiting to see if there is likely to be an event that it is convenient for me to attend.  As for the other benefits of membership, I'm going to wait and see how things develop before deciding to join for that alone.

Other than the fact that I've not yet joined, my sentiments are 100% in line with Ginger's.  If I had been at that final table last weekend I would have been desperate to deal, but would not have dared suggest it.