Pre and post flop conundrums

[Sheriff Fatman]

One question, what would you have done if MP had folded and SB had pushed instead?  If the answer is fold then I think betting the pot on the flop is a mistake.  Otherwise I think you played it fine.

Sheriff

I don't think an AA/KK in the hands of the player described would ever play this way with that flop.  I think they would either c-bet or check call.

Exactly my point - as long as Tighty wasn't going to fold to a reraise from SB then betting the pot is fine.  If he was prepared to fold, fearing AA or KK, then he shouldn't have bet that much there in the first place

[The_Diamond]

Preflop is awful. If you are prepared to go broke here you should jam. By calling, you allow small pairs massive ev to try and flop a set against you. Push and get rid of them. If he has AA or KK unlucky - reload. The pot is enough to take uncontested. AK should pass and you have just one pair, so be happy with teh pot as it is.

3 betting preflop here with Queean here is a bad amateurish play. With these these stack sizes you must put in almost half your stack and cannot fold to an all in. The SBs range is very tight. This is a reraise OOP with 3 players to act behind him and under normal circumstances you probably wouldn't uinclude AQ in his range and In the absense of any read putting 200BBs in preflop with Queens is insane.

There is nothing wrong with allowing small pairs in for this price because they do not have the pot odds to call a bet this size. Long term they lose money with this overcall but with Queens you won't. 

The fact that he has position here makes the call even better, but there is nothing you can do if some idiot overcalls behind you and gets lucky.

[Highstack]

Preflop is awful. If you are prepared to go broke here you should jam. By calling, you allow small pairs massive ev to try and flop a set against you. Push and get rid of them. If he has AA or KK unlucky - reload. The pot is enough to take uncontested. AK should pass and you have just one pair, so be happy with teh pot as it is.

3 betting preflop here with Queean here is a bad amateurish play. With these these stack sizes you must put in almost half your stack and cannot fold to an all in. The SBs range is very tight. This is a reraise OOP with 3 players to act behind him and under normal circumstances you probably wouldn't uinclude AQ in his range and In the absense of any read putting 200BBs in preflop with Queens is insane.

There is nothing wrong with allowing small pairs in for this price because they do not have the pot odds to call a bet this size. Long term they lose money with this overcall but with Queens you won't. 

The fact that he has position here makes the call even better, but there is nothing you can do if some idiot overcalls behind you and gets lucky.

Oh dear!

TE said that he wanted to get stuck into a flop without A or K. He gets his wish and he is still behind to AA or KK (unless he flops a set). This pot is big enough to take he only has one pair. A reraise should force AK or smaller pairs to pass, so how can you say it is insane?

I would also add that to say small pairs do not have odds you are clearly mistaken. £51 to take on a stack of £600 has implied odds to do so. You are around 7.5/1 to flop a set and a factor of 10 is a good working tol for the times when you don't get paid or the horrible set over set.

[The_Diamond]

Preflop is awful. If you are prepared to go broke here you should jam. By calling, you allow small pairs massive ev to try and flop a set against you. Push and get rid of them. If he has AA or KK unlucky - reload. The pot is enough to take uncontested. AK should pass and you have just one pair, so be happy with teh pot as it is.

3 betting preflop here with Queean here is a bad amateurish play. With these these stack sizes you must put in almost half your stack and cannot fold to an all in. The SBs range is very tight. This is a reraise OOP with 3 players to act behind him and under normal circumstances you probably wouldn't uinclude AQ in his range and In the absense of any read putting 200BBs in preflop with Queens is insane.

There is nothing wrong with allowing small pairs in for this price because they do not have the pot odds to call a bet this size. Long term they lose money with this overcall but with Queens you won't. 

The fact that he has position here makes the call even better, but there is nothing you can do if some idiot overcalls behind you and gets lucky.

Oh dear!

TE said that he wanted to get stuck into a flop without A or K. He gets his wish and he is still behind to AA or KK (unless he flops a set). This pot is big enough to take he only has one pair. A reraise should force AK or smaller pairs to pass, so how can you say it is insane?

I would also add that to say small pairs do not have odds you are clearly mistaken. £51 to take on a stack of £600 has implied odds to do so. You are around 7.5/1 to flop a set and a factor of 10 is a good working tol for the times when you don't get paid or the horrible set over set.

The MP player is playing a stack of 400 not 600. How can he justify a call for 51 to flop a set? He can't.

While the OP suggested he was calling for a non A/K I agree with you that this logic is flawed but it is not my reasoning for the call. You call because you have been 3 bet preflop deep stacked by a player way out of position and AA/KK should be a distinct possibility in this situation. You have position on the PFR. So you call and see what he does on a rag board and either get awsay cheaply or or win a decent pot on the flop. Like I said if there's an overcall that gets lucky behind you then its just unlucky, and to say that you miss-played your hand because of that is just results oriented thinking.  You only commit 10% of your stack with the preflop call and only a very very bad player would commit the other 90% when he will only be called when drawing to a 2 outer.

[Highstack]

So you wait for a rag board (as in original example and base your actions on pfr actions). suppose he has JJ or TT still just an overpair to the board and hands we beat. Equally as likely as AA or KK but you want to get away cheaply having invested £66 already. With QQ there is one hand that we are racing and 2 that have us well behind. Whilst they are distinct possibilites, I am prepared to beliee that we are ahead often enough here. When we rerasie and the nutter in the mp calls, then by your same logig KK would have to think long and hard about the overcall. AK would be a standard pass and that only leaves AA to be scared of. Its a cash game not a tournament and if he has it he has it, so we just reload.

[The_Diamond]

So you wait for a rag board (as in original example and base your actions on pfr actions). suppose he has JJ or TT still just an overpair to the board and hands we beat. Equally as likely as AA or KK but you want to get away cheaply having invested £66 already. With QQ there is one hand that we are racing and 2 that have us well behind. Whilst they are distinct possibilites, I am prepared to beliee that we are ahead often enough here. When we rerasie and the nutter in the mp calls, then by your same logig KK would have to think long and hard about the overcall. AK would be a standard pass and that only leaves AA to be scared of. Its a cash game not a tournament and if he has it he has it, so we just reload.

In a live game it should be easy enough for any player worth his salt to read a player well enough to distinguish TT/JJ from AA/KK. Not always but most of the time. The way they are played are usually extremely different. You would have to be an awful player to 3 bet here with tens and its probably also bad to do it with Jacks in such a  loose game with these stack sizes.

Also KK definitely does not have anywhere near the same decision as QQ since with QQ there are 12 ways of making a hand that crushes us and 16 ways to make AK to race us but with KK we are only up against 6 combos not 28.

[Highstack]

Well I got knocked out of a big live game last week when my oppo reraised from MP.  I was ciwas convinced he had AA or KK and I called with 77 as we wer both deepstacked trying to hit a set. Flop QT7 and I check-raised all in. He showed me TT. I agree it should be abigger hand, but it isn't always.

The KK I was saying would be more difficult (for me a no brainer still call) just suggesting by your logic that if QQ can't make the third raise then KK would struggle to call given that the loose cannon in mp is also calling ahead.

Anyway, another one I don't think we will convince eachother here, but I am pushing it as hard as I can as early as I can. In fact if I am genuinely concerned about AA or KK, then I prefer a pass to a call.

[totalise]

I think you two are both making compelling arguments.

The_Diamond, given the following two criteria:

a) tightend is going to stack off on no Ace or King flop
b) MP is calling any raise with any 2 cards

do you still think that calling preflop with QQ is the best play.

[Newmanseye]

I did say ages ago to repot it, its the only way to isolate the maniac, and probably preferable that we take the pot down preflop, its big enough and the only person calling a re pot is the maniac, even Ak / AQ  is passing to a repot here.

Jam the pot preflop, take whats there and move on.  Thats my opinion and how I would play it in a live game.

[MrSpeed]

Surely its a jam preflop.

The SB may have reraised oop but he reraised the maniac, NOT your UTG raise. His raise of a maniac should surely be given less respect therefore?! ?

You have already deceived the table by limping in. If you see AA or KK everytime a tight player raises...esp raising a maniac then you are SCARED money. Jam the pot and head for you wallet. QQ is ahead of AK anyway plus with dead money/ fold equity you are only worried about 2 hands.

Regards,
MrSpeed.

PS. Its a lot easier to write this than it would be for me to do....but i still think jamming is the right play. I'd be scared money too.....lol

Note: i don't mean to call you dead money TightEnd. I respect your posts. Not trying to upset anyone.   

[The_Diamond]

I think you two are both making compelling arguments.

The_Diamond, given the following two criteria:

a) tightend is going to stack off on no Ace or King flop
b) MP is calling any raise with any 2 cards

do you still think that calling preflop with QQ is the best play.

The OP said SB is tight and solid which I think should now be re evaluated. He is playing in a very loose game so he must know his reraise is very likely to be called in more than one spot which makes raising with AQ and even AK a terrible play when out of position which is not profitable long term as he will just check fold every time he misses. The only time it makes sense to raise there is if you are likely to get HU or take the pot down early and this looks like a nofoldem-holdem table to me.

One of the most common problems with Hand analysys, and this is probably true of my analysis more than most others, is that when someone tells me a player is solid then I make the assumption he knows what he is doing. So in the hand above I never expect to see AQ, In fact I'd consider anyone who makes this raise from the blinds in such a terribly loose cash game with AQ to be a bit of an ass.   

I have a lot of experience in very loose live pot limit games and if I see this play from a player that I would consider "tight and solid" I would expect to see only JJ-AA and sometimes AK. My own personal reraising range from this potition would be QQ-AA, nothing else and I'm not even a tight player but I'm aware enough to realise that at such a loose table inflating the pot out of position with a vulnerbale hand *and I include TT/JJ in those) is high risk and high variance and I dare say at best a   break even play in a game where you are likely to get called behind in at least 2 spots. My strategy in this game would be to see as many cheap flops as possible. So I guess you could say that when I'm in the SB I would be considered tight and solid and therefor if you were to LRAI with Queens when I 3 bet from this position you would be making a huge mistake.

In the situation above though since its now clear that the SBs ramge is not what it should be then, yes, I like a raise to 190 whcih is enough to get rid of the idiot and find out if SB really has the goods or not but if I am playing a player that I really rate then I actually think I am behind with queens here too iften and would prefer to call and re evaluate on the flop.

[TightEnd]

Diamond, I never expected AQ, and prior to the hand I had him as solid and decent.

If the range I had him on was wider then yes re-raise pre flop