Shove it in, or check Raise?

[tikay]

I get this one round my head every single time. I "pushed" last night, & Chubbs Nowab felt I played it badly, & the Check-Raise woulda been better. The result of the hand, by the way, is irrelevant, but MY view is that by pushing first, I get an extra chance of winning - in that, I force the other(s) to pass.

Here's the coup. Mid-comp, blinds are 300-600, I have 39k. (don't ask, it's a mystery to me, too). Serial Raiser makes it 2,000, 2 more callers, I decide to call in the BB with the rather sexy looking 

We see this flop.....

 

There's 8k+ in the Pot, average at this stage is only 8k, I decide to go for it & push in, I think they all have to let go. Pass, Call, dwell then "OK, call". Oops, I have 2 callers. They both have 2 pairs, I turn the flush & they don't improve, bingo.

Now, Chubbs knows the score, better than I ever will, but he was insistent that the check-Raise woulda been the better play in most cases.

Yes, no?

[Royal Flush]

My thoughts, the push screams draw, especially on a very draw heavy board. If you were sat in the OP's seat what would you put yourself on? A set? A straight? or a draw?

Of course a hand this strong we are not afraid of action but the key decision between the lead out (and it would never be an open push for me) and check raise is dependant on the opposition stacks. If they have ~8k then i would be leading out as its the only chance i have of them passing, if they have ~20k then the check raise destroys here. It makes your hand look MUCH stronger, i would now be thinking set/str8 rather than draw, the best part is though it increases the pot size! So if you do take it down without a showdown you get a few more grand in the pot.

[totalise]

their stacks? it makes the world of difference.


edit: in future im just gonna post "i agree with flushy".. how has this guy not got a sponsorship?

[ifm]

 how has this guy not got a sponsorship?

Something to do with his partner?

[totalise]

 how has this guy not got a sponsorship?

Something to do with his partner?

huh? did junglecat do something wrong?

[tikay]

My thoughts, the push screams draw, especially on a very draw heavy board. If you were sat in the OP's seat what would you put yourself on? A set? A straight? or a draw?

Of course a hand this strong we are not afraid of action but the key decision between the lead out (and it would never be an open push for me) and check raise is dependant on the opposition stacks. If they have ~8k then i would be leading out as its the only chance i have of them passing, if they have ~20k then the check raise destroys here. It makes your hand look MUCH stronger, i would now be thinking set/str8 rather than draw, the best part is though it increases the pot size! So if you do take it down without a showdown you get a few more grand in the pot.

That about paraphrases what Chubbs said. But my point was none of them had enough for the CR to work - once they Raised with their stacks, they'd be committed, so the "pass" option disappears, whereas by doing it "my way", they know their tourney is on the line, & it's an easier pass for them. To be fair, they all said the same thing - "hmm, so you have the flush draw or the straight draw then"....(in fact I had both, but both were poor, & although I was pulling to the straight flush, Matey Boy was holding the )

A pretty transparent play, it seems. But handsome is as handsome does.....

[Royal Flush]

It's just what shoving looks like to me, its like online when someone ships in 20x the bb, you KNOW they have AK.

If they are all around the 10k mark then a 6k bet is much better, with 2 pair they were not going anywhere anyway but at least leave them some doubt as to what hand you have!

[kinboshi]

Out of interest fellas, how would you play J9 (not diamonds) if you were Tikay <shudders> with that board?

[snoopy1239]

I agree with tikay.

But perhaps you need to be their stacks rather than just move all-in.

[totalise]

Out of interest fellas, how would you play J9 (not diamonds) if you were Tikay <shudders> with that board?

thats the beauty of shoving draws in this spot, you can shove nut hands here as well.

[kinboshi]

Out of interest fellas, how would you play J9 (not diamonds) if you were Tikay <shudders> with that board?

thats the beauty of shoving draws in this spot, you can shove nut hands here as well.

That's what i thought - but why then is it so obvious that Tikay has the draw?

[temp0r]

i read an article about open-ended straight flush draws on the flop that basically concluded it's most profitable to push everytime regardless. but obviously you have the best hand already made so maybe a check-raise is in order. but the problem is then if they DONT bet on the flop and the turns a 10 or J you may be behind.. so i'd push. you have the stack to bully anyway.

[totalise]

Out of interest fellas, how would you play J9 (not diamonds) if you were Tikay <shudders> with that board?

thats the beauty of shoving draws in this spot, you can shove nut hands here as well.

That's what i thought - but why then is it so obvious that Tikay has the draw?

because people  DONT shove it in with nut hands/sets very often in these spots.. they like to "milk" situations or are "scared of losing their customer". A lot is made of randomisation and doing the same with a wide variety of hands, but most people still bet their draws big on the flop and slowplay their big hands.

i read an article about open-ended straight flush draws on the flop that basically concluded it's most profitable to push everytime regardless. but obviously you have the best hand already made so maybe a check-raise is in order. but the problem is then if they DONT bet on the flop and the turns a 10 or J you may be behind.. so i'd push. you have the stack to bully anyway.

the good thing about straight flush draws is that its almost impossible to play badly, the only way you can mangle it is if you fold, but theres still a difference between playing it in a profitable way, and playing it in the most profitable way

[Royal Flush]

theres still a difference between playing it in a profitable way, and playing it in the most profitable way

That is the crux of the discussion, you can't go wrong getting this in 3 way (assuming the Fd and str8 draws are live) but you would much rather take the pot with 0 risk.

[bhoywonder]

didnt read the others opnions...yet

str8 to my opinion

great result  on the hand but lucky i think


it looks like u are pushing/bullying with a draw,pushing out overpairs.....

but you ran into a couple of 2 pairs,which could have turned into fh's

but i think the CR looks stronger,very strong....


and would have looked like u a hit ur set and disguised it,looking for action


now i'll go look at the real players opinions.......lol