Gutshot lose Court case Skills fight... Derek Kelly found Guilty!

[lazypoker]

Even scrabble players can get lucky though:
http://www.slate.com/id/2152255/

Nice article.

I expect most people who have only played Scrabble casually would think the illustrated game was pretty skillful. Could a beginner have beaten Cresta? Obviously not but beginners do win poker tournaments.

[thetank]

You can play Blackjack skillfully, (at least being more likely to win if you do the right thign) does that make it a sport too?

[lazypoker]

You can play Blackjack skillfully, (at least being more likely to win if you do the right thign) does that make it a sport too?

Has anyone tried to set up a Blackjack club?

[thetank]

There was that place in Belfast.

[thetank]

Don't get me wrong, I think poker is as skilled as an affair as anyone else. When the uninitiated ask that poorly worded chestnut....

 "What % of poker is skill and what is luck"

I usually answer that....

 "Over the course of many tournamets, poker is 0% luck and 100% skill"



I'm just trying to see all the arguments on this one.

For instance, it's a given for me that poker involves a huge skill factor, but the game can also be played purely for gambling.

Luck is involved in Tennis if you hit the net cord, and it goes the other way. You can't pick up a racket, raise the blinds and just see who wins though. This option is available in poker.

This is the crucial difference perhaps, the point lazypoker makes about the scrabble noobs is a good un.

[thetank]

You can play Blackjack skillfully, (at least being more likely to win if you do the right thign) does that make it a sport too?

Has anyone tried to set up a Blackjack club?

It's a precedence thing.

If the judge ruled in favour of the gutshot club, there would be very little reason why someone couldn't open a blackjack club in their pub, just make sure everyone has a membership card.

[Bongo]

But does it not depend on how long a time frame you look at?

If you looked at one poker hand, anyone could win.

One scrabble turn is likely to be the same, if amateur man pulls out a natural bingo and world champ pulls out a back of bollocks...

[lazypoker]

I admit I don't know the law but the report emphasised the importance of the element of chance in poker. I don't see the relevance given that most skillful games have a luck factor. Only open games like chess do not have any apparent luck although there is always the possibility of someone chancing on some perfect moves for the wrong reason. I think the important distinction between blackjack and poker is that blackjack is a house game where the house always has a built in edge (notwithstanding card counting). Blackjack is the punter against the house whereas poker is a level field where none of the competitors have the odds stacked in their favour. There are enough blackjack players who can't even play basic strategy who more than make up for any card counters who, in any case, get banned if they win too much.

Backgammon and rubber bridge clubs have operated in London for a long time. Why is poker different? I know rubber bridge clubs had their own battles but they won by claiming it was a skill game. If it didn't matter that there was a large luck element for those games why did it matter for poker? Was the fact that bridge and backgammon clubs were not competing with casinos a factor?

[Mrs Nightfly]

Just a few comments and thoughts I have had;

It is one thing to open a card room without a license but still operate within the Gaming Board Guidelines.....It is another to open a card room and flout all the rules!!  Had the Gutshot followed Gaming Guidelines without a license then they might have been okay.  To ignore all the Guidelines, Guideline 3 is solely about card room competitions (namely poker), is wrong IMO.

To charge a registration fee and deduct money from the prize pool is charging you twice for the same thing.  It is wrong for these clubs to do this.  I am all for card rooms opening within the UK - a healthier alternative to the current casino monopoly......... but I do not believe that illegal card clubs charging players over the odds is the way forward.

In order for the casinos to lose their monopoly on poker (currently the only place you can play legally), the Gambling Commission need to change.  Licenses shouldn't be so hard or expensive to get and they should have a 'soft gaming' license (ie not Blackjack or Roulette) that is easier to obtain. 

Unfortunately, gaming laws in this country are really strict.  This I believe is to protect the player, even those who don't want protecting.

[Djinn]

Just a few comments and thoughts I have had;

It is one thing to open a card room without a license but still operate within the Gaming Board Guidelines.....It is another to open a card room and flout all the rules!!  Had the Gutshot followed Gaming Guidelines without a license then they might have been okay.  To ignore all the Guidelines, Guideline 3 is solely about card room competitions (namely poker), is wrong IMO.

To charge a registration fee and deduct money from the prize pool is charging you twice for the same thing.  It is wrong for these clubs to do this.  I am all for card rooms opening within the UK - a healthier alternative to the current casino monopoly......... but I do not believe that illegal card clubs charging players over the odds is the way forward.

In order for the casinos to lose their monopoly on poker (currently the only place you can play legally), the Gambling Commission need to change.  Licenses shouldn't be so hard or expensive to get and they should have a 'soft gaming' license (ie not Blackjack or Roulette) that is easier to obtain. 

Unfortunately, gaming laws in this country are really strict.  This I believe is to protect the player, even those who don't want protecting.

The Gutshot either charges a reg. (e.g. £100 +£10) for freezeout competitions, or takes a percentage, for the rebuy ones, to be fair.  There are no double charges.
As far as cash games go, there's no membership charge to join the club, but a 'service charge' is taken from pots. 

I do, however entirely agree with your point on changing within the Gambling Commission to create new 'soft gaming' licenses.  That is in all probability the only compromise which can be reached.

[dik9]

I totally agree with Mrs Nightfly, but now casinos are finding loop holes in the act to charge on top of the reg fees, in September will casino cardrooms charge session fees, reg fees, rake and tips?

[Royal Flush]

When we start paying rake it will improve things IMO, casinos will realise the profitability of auto-shuffle machines in the table and we will get more hands/hr. Happy days!

[dik9]

I give up, concede, throw the towel in


 

[lazypoker]

I was looking for the Gaming Board Guidelines and found this press statement:

"The Gambling Commission is pleased to see this case concluded.  The 1968 Gaming Act has always been clear, poker is gaming, it is a game of skill and chance combined. Commercial gaming needs to be undertaken in a properly regulated environment to ensure that members of the public are protected from cheating and exploitation. 

The Gutshot has operated as a poker club with few entry or membership controls. Its facilities are very limited and its player protections would not meet expected standards. It was in serious breach of the Gaming Act 1968. 

The new Gambling Act provides further protections and reinforces the powers of the Gambling Commission, Police and Local Authorities to ensure that gambling in Great Britain remains amongst the safest and most trustworthy in the world. It specifically requires the Commission to keep crime out of gambling, ensure it is fair and open, and that children and vulnerable people are protected from being harmed or exploited by gambling.

Poker is a very popular game, but those involved as players or organisers in games where significant sums of money may be involved need to be aware that without proper supervision it can rapidly escalate into a high risk, volatile activity, as well as create opportunities for criminal exploitation and cheating.

We shall continue to work with police forces and Local Authorities to ensure that gambling is properly and fairly provided to the public." http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Client/news/news_detail.asp?NewsId=34

This gives quite a different slant. The emphasis is on protection of the members from cheating, exploitation, and crime. The press statement is implying that the reason for the ruling is that Gutshot were not protecting its members sufficiently. I know people who have said they would not go there because there was no security. On the other hand, walking to the car from some casinos with a bundle of cash seems pretty dodgy.

The backgammon and rubber bridge clubs I've been to had no more security than Gutshot so I guess they were just allowed to get away with it. I still have the impression that poker is getting treated differently to other games ("of skill and chance combined"). Is it that casinos want all the poker action for themselves but don't care about other games like bridge or backgammon?

[lazypoker]

This FAQ answers a lot of questions about poker: http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Client/detail.asp?ContentId=97