Ivey the hustler?

[ariston]

If you cheat you don't deserve to get paid imo. end of for me.

[henrik777]

If you cheat you don't deserve to get paid imo. end of for me.

Is improving cheating ?

Not pleasant to find out the guy you used to whip is now so much better and getting revenge.

If he was asked and lied then that is different but if the handicaps were negotiated with no lies then that's the nature of the game.

Sandy

[Karabiner]

I used to play snooker for money all the time a few years ago.

I would often have to give players a start in order to get any action, for instance ten points playing with six reds.
If I won the session the next time the same guy came in we would agree the start again. Maybe it would be the same start or maybe it would change. Sometimes players improved and the start had to be changed, but it would rarely be changed mid-session. The normal way was to quit if you felt the game was bad, and negotiate a better handicap the next time. Now all this happened in Canada where I lived in the 70's and I think this is the way most guys gamble in North America.

The norm. was to pay after every game, with the stake money in one of the pockets or held by the marker, although I don't think this principle would work so well on the golf course.

[Dave T]

IMO hats off to Ivey for a good hustle. He obviously negotiated more shots than he should of had but thats not cheating. I know when i play golf we always argue on the first tee for about 10 minutes about the number of shots everyonre gets and sometimes someone gets too many but good luck to them, they wont get that many next time. I'm surprised his opponents were hustled so easily. They should definately pay up and if they have a problem with it then don't play with him again and it will be Ivey's loss for hustling too much. But to not pay up is then bringing their honour into question.

[ariston]

If you cheat you don't deserve to get paid imo. end of for me.

Is improving cheating ?

Not pleasant to find out the guy you used to whip is now so much better and getting revenge.

If he was asked and lied then that is different but if the handicaps were negotiated with no lies then that's the nature of the game.

Sandy

How many shots does Erik give you?

10 shots

Ok we will stick with x as a handicap.


After getting caned- erik, "I played him off level and he slaughtered me"

you work out if he lied/cheated or not.



To put it in more realistic terms and figures we may understand I used to play £5 a hole off agreed handicaps with the boys from work (yes I did work once). One week someone who I haven't played with for 6 months turns up and joins the game but we know he has improved. I used to give him 20 shots and ask how many my boss gave him when he played the week before- oh he gave me 10 shots. Now I know I can beat my boss easily so I let him play with the same 20 shots and he murders me. Would I pay him yeh as its the sort of cash I would carry around with me but when I went back to the office and my boss said- I played him off level last week and he slaughtered me what would I do? I would go and find the cheating bstrd and get my money back and more than likely give him a little slap for his cheek.
When asked a direct question about how many shots x gives you you should answer truthfully or in my eyes you are a cheat. Cheats do not deserve to be paid imo and I would never dream of trying to turn someone over in that way. Whats the difference in cheating like this and playing with a marked deck (which I know Ivey would never do btw)?

[Karabiner]

I think that the point that everyone is missing here is that this is only going to be
+EV for Ivey if he gets too many shots from the other two.

That is why he lost to them consistently previously, because they are scratch and five handicap and Ivey is 20ish.

The low handicappers have far less variance in their scores whereas a 20-handicapper could shoot 90 or 120.

The only way Ivey can win is to get too many shots.

[taximan007]

IF Ivey cheated then in my opinion he is out of order.

I am assuming these guys have played golf together on a few occasions, i'm also assuming Ivey has come out as the LOSER, i'm wondering how much has he LOST in the past and DID he PAY UP?

Ive always been a believer in NEVER gamble what you cant afford to lose, and it says RAM couldnt afford to pay his debt(although to his credit he has made deals with Ivey to sort it)

I just wonder if there may be a case for "bruised egos"?

I dont know any of these guys personally, only what i read about them, just my opinion

[kano]

If you cheat you don't deserve to get paid imo. end of for me.

Please put your personal feelings aside in this Ariston, I understand you are friends with Ram & Marc but try looking at it from a neutral standpoint.

I don't see how anyone can consider Ivey to have cheated. Yes, he used deception with regards to the handicap but how can this be considered cheating? If they aren't playing off official handicaps, I just don't see how that argument can be applied. The shots were agreed prior to the match, I just don't see how Ram & Marc can cry foul halfway round and refuse to pay up.

 

[Ironside]

Does anyone know the exact amount of shots Ivey was given for that SPECIFIC round and he previous round they played together? These guys play enough golf together so they should have a fair assessment on Iveys game.
I know hes had 3 months of coaching but that realistically would probably take 2  -  3 shots off his handicap if hes lucky.

   

2 - 3 months of coaching could turn a high handicapper into a single figure player very easy

i know of players that have gone from 22-26 players to 5-6 players with basic lessons and hard work ok it took them a little longer than 3 months but hey were lucky to get 2 rounds in a week never mind a round a day and a few hours on the practice ground

[M3boy]

I bet Ivey feels just as guilty about this, as Mark and Ram did when taking his money before.

Cheating? I cannot decide.

[M3boy]

I think that the point that everyone is missing here is that this is only going to be
+EV for Ivey if he gets too many shots from the other two.

That is why he lost to them consistently previously, because they are scratch and five handicap and Ivey is 20ish.

The low handicappers have far less variance in their scores whereas a 20-handicapper could shoot 90 or 120.

The only way Ivey can win is to get too many shots.

I Agree with Variance for high handicappers.

About 2 years into playing golf, I was a 19 handicapper and my m8 was an 18 handicapper.
We entered the WIlson Better Ball regional comp and qualified for the final.
Top 4 teams in the final won an all expenses paid trip to Portugal to play the Final

Well, we both just had "one of those days" and played VERY well, both shooting 12 and 13 under par respectively.

We got called all the names under the sun, but did we cheat?

NO we didnt.

[ariston]

no you didnt cheat. If you had played another 19 handicapper the week before and were playing someone for cash and stated he gave me 10 shots (when in effect he didnt give you any shots) that would make you a cheat in my eyes. My first thought on this issue was the boys have been spanked and they should pay up but when I found out how the handicaps had been decided and the fact that he had been asked a direct question to which he lied in his response my views changed. Both Ram and Marc could have paid but chose not to as they felt they had been cheated. When I was playing I never had a lesson and probably played off 25 until I once played with a very good golfer (ex pro) who spotted a major flaw in my stance on the first tee- he changed my stance by the 2nd hole and i shot the best round I ever had by ten strokes, it wasn't just a fluke as I then consistantly shot 10 strokes better every round, in effect one change to my stance had took 10 strokes off my handicap. If phil had improved by 20 strokes a round fair enough but he didn't need to lie about how many strokes somebody both parties knew and trusted. If he had said he played Eric off level he wouldn't have had such a huge edge but by all accounts he would've still spanked them both and took a huge chunk of cash off them. I think he scored 51 points on a stableford scoring system so if any of you out there are golfers you know how much he had improved (equivalent to net eagles on 15 holes out of 18 and a couple of birdies if memory serves me right- I aint played for about 5 years).

[Nakor]

Does anyone know the exact amount of shots Ivey was given for that SPECIFIC round and he previous round they played together? These guys play enough golf together so they should have a fair assessment on Iveys game.
I know hes had 3 months of coaching but that realistically would probably take 2  -  3 shots off his handicap if hes lucky.

   

2 - 3 months of coaching could turn a high handicapper into a single figure player very easy

i know of players that have gone from 22-26 players to 5-6 players with basic lessons and hard work ok it took them a little longer than 3 months but hey were lucky to get 2 rounds in a week never mind a round a day and a few hours on the practice ground

Very Easy ??

After having a golf course built at bottom of the garden (other side of the fence) in my teenage years, between 16 - 18 years old I played most days, with some excellent coaching I managed 28 - 12 year one, and 12 - 2.2 in year two and I can tell you it was bloody hard work and took a commitment that took over my life for those two years.  

Without knowing the facts as they happened I think its difficult to judge - however I think I would lean towards hustle rather then cheat - and in keeping with that view I am thinking you have to pay, but very very easy for me to say that.  Not a nice position for any of those concerned - but a interesting discussion.

[henrik777]

It's quite interesting that the stakes rather than the principal seem to affect many peoples perception.

Sandy

[ariston]

principal for me not stakes. If someone cheated me for a fiver I would be just as offended as if someone cheated me out of 10k. The fact Ivey lost a few hundred grand last year is irrelevant as he could have won that back in one round by being honest. If they had lost 1/2 million and Ivey had told the truth when asked a simple question they would've paid without a problem.