Exit Hand Sunday Warm up 11th

[Dewi_cool]

Thanks again for all the replies, just to confirm that I was not reraising to get him off the hand, I wanted the call as I was gambling and would have been happy with 2 live cards, next time though getting it in first with any 2 will be my priority.
 

[doubleup]

Three .....

....I reached for my coat.

Mantis - while these little stories are nicely written, they don't prove anything other than gamblers like to gamble (nothing wrong with that) and they sometimes win.  I would actually have pushed in Dewi's position with a pretty wide range, prob about 30% of hands, but lowish suited connectors wouldn't have been in the range.  If there was a chance that he could fold then I def raise with them, but not when I'm going to be called.

[MANTIS01]

Ok

Mantis - while these little stories are nicely written, they don't prove anything other than gamblers like to gamble (nothing wrong with that) and they sometimes win.

This could be true

However, involvement in this thread has been worthwhile for me. Essentially we have been looking at the short-stack gamble and how different people act in that situation. As a more solid player I rarely push in these situations myself. But gamblers like to gamble in this situation and sometimes they win. I saw one well-timed gamble have a dramatic effect on a player's tournament last night. So it may be worth having a more flexible pushing range if the time feels right.

Looking at this difference might also help me with making calls from short stack gamblers in the future.

Also I found it interesting that Dewi made an instinctive call. I thought that it was a spot where a tight player would fold and a gambler would gamble. Dewi chose the gambling mentality, when others including yourself would not. It proved to be a well-time gamble pre-flop. So trying to incorporate this when playing might be worth some thought. Especially if you are a tight player.

People think differently

Your comment about "little stories" is evidence of that fact

Cheers for saying they're well written though 

[tikay]

Three tables left at the casino last night.

How events panned out over the next couple of hours made me think of this hand.

I think that it is worth a mention here.

One of the players had been a bit card dead and so became relatively short-stacked.

The blinds were 400/800 and he had about 5,300 or something like that. There was a raise to 2,400 and one caller. It came to the short-stack who said.."Time to gamble"...and pushed all-in. The big blind called, as did the raiser and the caller. At showdown the short stack revealed      for the made straight. He raked in a pot of about 22,000.

Suddenly this guy's whole attitude changed. He had some chips about him and started getting involved again. He was raising liberally and taking down his fair share of pots. Marginal hands that would have been mucked a few moments ago when he was short-stacked were now pushed with some aggression. He had gone from being detached from the game to well and truly back in it. And because he had chips he could now use them to get more chips. He was playing with confidence.

He was playing the game.

I was thinking...." I would have folded there with the 6-7".

It was clear he was behind and obvious he was going to be called.

He clearly could have waited and pushed with a better hand, but suited connectors have the ability to take down a big pot...and he gambled there to win a big pot.

The chips in that big pot gave him the play to get back into the tournament.

An hour or so later and with 2 tables remaining I was short stacked after going cold myself. I had been very patient. More patient than this guy. I had passed suited connectors a couple of times and my stack was dwindling. Eventually I got it in first with A-J and found a caller with A-10. I was knocked out to a flopped 10. Nice one!

I know this is just unlucky, but the point is that even if I had won that pot I am still struggling a bit, because ultimately my patience dwindled my stack. The win wouldn't have transformed my fortunes dramatically. 6-7 guy had quadrupled up, he had taken a big gamble before he was too far into the panic zone to win a big pot and get back into the thick of things. I had been more patient, waited for the maths to be right, took on a smaller gamble and failed to even double up.

Those people who can really play this game...need to play! This is the advantage they have over their opponents. But you cannot play without chips. All the moves you have are not part of your game anymore. You are sitting on your hands waiting for cards. If you leave it too late, a double up will only serve to give you more time to look for another double up. In the meantime your play is still restricted. Potential raising hands are mucked because they are not strong enough to commit with.

Suddenly you are not playing the game anymore.

Mathematical probability is the foundation of solid cash game play. It becomes a little less prevailant in tournament play though. Tournament time pressures mean the gambles you must take on are maybe a little more marginal than you would like. But you do have to gamble. When you become a relative short stack I don't think maths should hold anywhere near as much significance. It really is all a matter of timing.

The important thing though is that the more time you spend short-stacked the more opportunities you miss to actually play the game. And win the tournament.

Clearly, though my own tactic was to push first with strength but it didn't stop me liking the play from 6-7 guy though. Who was incidentally still chipped-up as I reached for my coat.

I just love this Post, because it sums up my Tourney weakness precisely & exactly, paricularly THIS....

because ultimately my patience dwindled my stack. The win wouldn't have transformed my fortunes dramatically. 6-7 guy had quadrupled up, he had taken a big gamble before he was too far into the panic zone to win a big pot and get back into the thick of things. I had been more patient, waited for the maths to be right, took on a smaller gamble and failed to even double up.

I spend so much time "waiting for the maths" that before I know it, even from a positon of early chip strength (only rarely, like...) I find myself in the "push panic zone"! And the more times a shortie pushes, the more likely he is to bust, as Big-Stacks are always ready to take us shorties on.

If I could cure my "mid-tourney" freeze, I'd be twice the player.

[MANTIS01]

Strangely enough a night out at the dogs got me interested in this thread.

As we all know poker is essentially a gambling game. Using the skill that you have can give you an advantage but when all is said and done you are still gambling. The question for the short stack is, when do you gamble and what odds are you willing to take?

Throughout the night I was backing favourites and following trainer's tips. Betting on the favourites and following the form gave me the best chance to win. I was playing tight and solid.

I lost.

And I kept losing.

Anyway, come the last race I was down the equivalent of the national debt of a small South American country.

Everyone was raging about the 6/4 favourite in trap 1. Apparently it was "nailed on"

However, because of my losses 6/4 was no good to me. I was substantially down and needed bigger odds than that. I backed trap 4 at 5/1 simply because it was 5/1 and these odds represented a chance to redress the balance.

Now to be honest trap 4 fell over at the first bend. The source of much amusement for my friends but quite in keeping with how the night had gone.

The rank outsider won at 7/1 though. A bit more pure gamble in me and I could easily have lumped it on the no-hoper in trap 6 and had a winning night.

The thing is that at some point in a tournament you will become short-stacked. If you take on an even money shot vs one opponent you could double up. It is desirable to get your chips in ahead here, but even still, there are no guarantees.

Another alternative is a bigger odds gamble such as 4/1. You will risk the same amount but the rewards are far greater. You will certainly go in behind but because of that risk a winning gamble will have a dramatic impact on your tournament in an instant.

You can wait and go all-in with Aces as a short stack, get 3 callers and loose.

Anyway the point is that maths becomes far less significant when we become short. It is the pure gamblers terrain now. The only question is whether you want to take evens or a bigger price for a more dramatic result. These are just two of the alternatives you can explore.

"Gamblers like to gamble and sometimes they win"...never a truer word has been spoken.

Incidentally although I often hear the phrase...."The world is going to the dogs!"...I can confirm that there was only about two or three hundred people there last Saturday.

[boldie]

Incidentally although I often hear the phrase...."The world is going to the dogs!"...I can confirm that there was only about two or three hundred people there last Saturday.

 


excellent post as usual sir.

[CrestOfaWave]

I spend so much time "waiting for the maths" that before I know it, even from a positon of early chip strength (only rarely, like...) I find myself in the "push panic zone"! And the more times a shortie pushes, the more likely he is to bust, as Big-Stacks are always ready to take us shorties on.

If I could cure my "mid-tourney" freeze, I'd be twice the player.
[/quote]

I agree - this exact thing happened to me at the GUKPT this weekend when down to less than 17k chips I needed to double up to get enough chip equity to become involved in hands. Blinds had just hit 600/1200 with a running ante of 75.
I had been card dead for 40 hands and bluffed 1 all in with A rag already just to keep alive. Pushed with AK and ran into QQ with no improvement. Would love not to have to coin flip but find at least once in mid tourney you have to do this. Next time will try 67 ;-)

[portfolio]

I was criticised by quite a few on the rail for this re raise, I would love your comments please, My thought process was, I have under 10 bb, I don't want to limp in to FT, and he could be holding any 2, was it that bad, I don't think so, please let me have your views


PokerStars Game #9088672039: Tournament #45258663, $200+$15 Hold'em No
Limit - Level XXVI (40000/80000) - 2007/03/25 - 19:49:33 (ET)
Table '45258663 4' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: DrEskilstuna (1596227 in chips)
Seat 2: dayero (980117 in chips)
Seat 3: pokitsnowmen (2145802 in chips)
Seat 4: Dewi_cool (582063 in chips)
Seat 6: velvetlife (1430645 in chips)
Seat 7: GigaBet (4568669 in chips)
DrEskilstuna: posts the ante 4000
dayero: posts the ante 4000
pokitsnowmen: posts the ante 4000
Dewi_cool: posts the ante 4000
velvetlife: posts the ante 4000
GigaBet: posts the ante 4000
Dewi_cool: posts small blind 40000
velvetlife: posts big blind 80000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Dewi_cool [ ]
GigaBet: raises 160000 to 240000
DrEskilstuna: folds
dayero: folds
pokitsnowmen: folds
Dewi_cool: raises 338063 to 578063 and is all-in
velvetlife: folds
GigaBet: calls 338063
TheWhisper [observer] said, "gl dewi"
*** FLOP *** [ ]
brauchpotato [observer] said, "lollllllllllllllllllllll"
Rhmd [observer] said, "wow"
kuldipc [observer] said, "omg"
christyb4 [observer] said, "glgl giga"
sheets [observer] said, "np"
*** TURN *** [ ] []
mbardsen [observer] said, "loooooool"
kuldipc [observer] said, "hahahaa"
kuldipc [observer] said, "a"
UCLArounder [observer] said, "wtf"
kuldipc [observer] said, "hahah"
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
Rhmd [observer] said, "sick"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Dewi_cool: shows [ ] (high card King)
GigaBet: shows [ ] (a pair of Fives)
kuldipc [observer] said, "a75"
sheets [observer] said, "tadaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
GigaBet collected 1260126 from pot
JohnnyBax [observer] said, "ding"
Rhmd [observer] said, "so sick"
kuldipc [observer] said, "ur a donk"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1260126 | Rake 0
Board [ ]
Seat 1: DrEskilstuna folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: dayero folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: pokitsnowmen (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Dewi_cool (small blind) showed [ ] and lost with high card
King
Seat 6: velvetlife (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: GigaBet showed [ ] and won (1260126) with a pair of Fives

seen u pull this move too often.

eventually it caught up wit u at the worst possible  time.

ul/