whats your move amd why????

[Ironside]

PokerStars Game #9267241435: Tournament #47075694, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2007/04/05 - 16:22:43 (ET)
Table '47075694 12' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: tu5can (1750 in chips)
Seat 3: Jill Ivey (1780 in chips)
Seat 4: USANAMACK (1410 in chips)
Seat 5: MR Plumber (1455 in chips)
Seat 6: Explosief (1460 in chips)
Seat 7: GHOSTHAND82 (2610 in chips)
Seat 8: Ironside (1725 in chips)
Seat 9: Finzli (1310 in chips)
USANAMACK: posts small blind 15
MR Plumber: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ironside [ ]
Explosief: folds
GHOSTHAND82: folds
Ironside: raises 60 to 90
Finzli: calls 90
tu5can: folds
Jill Ivey: folds
USANAMACK: folds
MR Plumber: folds
*** FLOP *** [ ]
Ironside: bets 90
Finzli: calls 90
*** TURN *** [ ] []
Ironside: bets 120
Finzli: raises 270 to 390

[Moskvich]

I'd pass. I think I'm behind, and it's too likely that if a diamond comes on the river I don't get paid for the flush (even assuming it's winning). Calling here costs more than 20% of my stack. I reckon those 270 can be better employed somewhere else. Pass here and you're left with about 1400, so not much damage done.

[MANTIS01]

Your pre-flop raise is a little on the low side coming out of early position with QQ early-on in the tournament. I would be inclined to raise a minimum of 120 in order to prevent a multi-way pot developing.

On this occasion however you do find yourself going to the flop heads-up which puts us in good shape.

The flop is not ideal but then again it is not altogether too bad either. Just one over-card and a draw to the 2nd nuts.

I would want to acquire some quality information about where my hand stands at this point. Betting 90 chips into a 225 chip pot is not going to do this and you will be called here by a wide range of hands,    for example.

Betting more on the flop narrows the calling range of your opponent and so makes everything a bit clearer. I think a bet of about 180 is in order here.

The turn comes  and you throw out another bet of 90. But this time it is into a pot of 405 chips. Finzli now re-raises to 390.

Because you have bet the hand quite weakly throughout it is no surprise to see your opponent try and take a shot at the pot on the turn. But what could he be holding?

This sudden show of aggression when a blank hits the turn is suspicious I think. Why is your opponent suddenly changing the context in which he is playing the hand?

If he flopped the flush or a set for example he proceeded to slow-play it by flat calling your small bet on the flop. Now suddenly he wants to quick-play it by re-raising on the turn. This makes no sense. Slow-play and then suddenly over-kill seems a bit odd.

I would therefore find it difficult to accept that my opponent has hit the flop.

If he was holding a King I feel sure he would re-raise the flop instead of the turn.

So either the turn card has made his hand e.g. set of threes or he is on a semi-bluff holding the  .

If Finzli is holding the  his actions make sense. He flat called the flop drawing to the nuts and when he didn't hit on the turn he decided to put pressure on the uncertainty you have shown, whilst panicking a bit himself that the diamond isn't coming.

The problem is that if you call his re-raise and a diamond comes on the river he gets all your chips anyway. If a diamond doesn't appear you don't get any more chips there either. So flat-calling on the turn is not an option.

I would be inclined to move all-in at this point and put the pressure back on my opponent. He is just going to have to show me a hand that beats me here. I simply don't believe him.

If he does have me beat with a made hand I still have a diamond draw to hit. But when I move all-in I would not expect him to call because his re-raise on the turn after a flat call on the flop just doesn't add up.

[JungleCat03]

I prefer a bigger raise preflop and a bigger bet on the flop.

You've played the hand as if you have next to nothing so it's quite possible he's making a move on you.

Having said that because you have a relatively weak hand, in a relatively small pot (due to the small bets) and you don't have much information on his hand I think a fold is fine.

If you call the turn, i think you'll be reduced to check calling any river bar the as there don't seem many hands to value bet and your best avenue is to pick off a bluff since that is what you are currently beating.

Pushing the turn for 2x the pot seems OTT. You mostly fold out all the worse hands and get all the better ones to call. Some of the worse hands will have a 20% chance of beating you which is unfortunate when the flush comes in but if he does have you beat then you will either be drawing dead of have a 20% of outdrawing him.

Pushing makes his job relatively easy, since he can obviously quickly fold his bluffs, call his big hands, and although you put some pressure on a bare king, I think he'll find a call fairly often.

[boldie]

I'm with Mantis and junglecat on this one in so far that the raise preflop and on the flop is way too small. so is your turn bet. You are showing weakness and any decent player would reraise you on the turn roughly for the amount that he does.

Once he reraises on the turn like this I don't takle him for the nut flush, there would be no point to him raising like that. He could ofcourse have a smaller flush which he decided to slowplay on the flop and decided there would be enough in the pot on the turn to take it down after your 120 bet. I however reraise here. If I am correct and his best holding is a small flush you have outs but as he could just as easily be trying to steal the pot from you I reckon the reraise is the best way to go. there is now close to 800 in the pot and you only have roughly 1400 left so any reraise will mean you have a lot invested on this pot. I reraise to 1k total. call if he moves in and curse myself for not raising more preflop, on the flop and on the turn if I get beat.

[AlexMartin]

Pass, most average players play flopped monsters slowly on the flop and hard on the turn. Looks to me like he flopped a flush/set and why on earth do you want to carry on with your hand now.

[Ironside]

wow

the preflop raise is standard i will make that with 67s or aa its to 3xbb

once flop has come i make small bet if he has the king he will come over top he wont want me making flush
when he flat calls i have him on a diamond draw with the ace or maybe a middle pair

the raise on the turn is to faint weakness as i knbow i am winning

only river i dont want to see is an ace or a diamond

i have no idea what he did have because i won without a showdown

i cant believe that you think the reraise on turn was a sign of strenght i read it for

i want to see a show down so will make small raise here in hope the river can go check check and he doesnt need to call a large bet

[johnbhoy76]

PokerStars Game #9267241435: Tournament #47075694, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2007/04/05 - 16:22:43 (ET)
Table '47075694 12' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: tu5can (1750 in chips)
Seat 3: Jill Ivey (1780 in chips)
Seat 4: USANAMACK (1410 in chips)
Seat 5: MR Plumber (1455 in chips)
Seat 6: Explosief (1460 in chips)
Seat 7: GHOSTHAND82 (2610 in chips)
Seat 8: Ironside (1725 in chips)
Seat 9: Finzli (1310 in chips)
USANAMACK: posts small blind 15
MR Plumber: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ironside [ ]
Explosief: folds
GHOSTHAND82: folds
Ironside: raises 60 to 90
Finzli: calls 90
tu5can: folds
Jill Ivey: folds
USANAMACK: folds
MR Plumber: folds
*** FLOP *** [ ]
Ironside: bets 90
Finzli: calls 90
*** TURN *** [ ] []
Ironside: bets 120
Finzli: raises 270 to 390

I wouldn't have thought the three would have helped him so the fact he is getting aggressive now is strange. Maybe he flopped the flush but does not want to see a fourth diamond as he suspects you could have the ?

You've committed 300 to this pot so you still will have around 1400 left if you fold here and with the blinds 15/30 that's ok

915 in the pot now by my calculations and it's 270 to call

3.4 to 1

I think this is probably a fold as you are not drawing to the nuts and you don't know if you even want to see a diamond on the river. (he could have the )

You are out of position, there is an overcard. It's early doors so you could be up against some muppet who is playing a random king etc....

So on balance I'd say fold

[boldie]

I don't see the fold here myself. the guy probably doesn't have the King as (like Ironside said) he would have reraised on the flop..unless he has the Ace of Diamonds to go with it in which case if he decided not to reraise on the flop he probably would have done so pre-flop) I really would suspect a low flush or a stone cold bluff. The bluff is more likely (as Ironside is hanging himself nicely if oppo has a low flush) and therefore surely it's a reraise?

[johnbhoy76]

I don't see the fold here myself. the guy probably doesn't have the King as (like Ironside said) he would have reraised on the flop..unless he has the Ace of Diamonds to go with it in which case if he decided not to reraise on the flop he probably would have done so pre-flop) I really would suspect a low flush or a stone cold bluff. The bluff is more likely (as Ironside is hanging himself nicely if oppo has a low flush) and therefore surely it's a reraise?

yeah after readng your replies I am comming around to that idea.

I suppose it depends on what you think of your opponent. Is he someone who is going to have some random nonsense like K5 or K2 etc... and just wont fold it.

Or is he a decent player who has sensed weakness from Iromside and decided to make a move at the pot?

[MANTIS01]

When the blinds start getting up there then I think 3x the bb as a standard opening is spot on. With the blinds so low I would be worried about a multi-way pot developing. As such 3x the bb with 6-7s is ideal for that purpose. But a touch more with Q-Q is more appropriate I think.

The fact that you felt in charge of the hand means that your betting pattern is actually fine. You got the re-raise from an inferior hand by feigning weakness - good stuff.

Once he re-raises here there is little chance of getting any more money into the pot whichever move you choose. My worry is the  and any re-raise commits you to the pot anyway. So I think that the re-raise all-in is still the most appropriate move.

He may call the all-in with    anyway - putting you on the draw.

At the very least your table image will be healthy and you win a decent pot with no fuss.

But I think that we both agree that the re-raise on the turn signifies weakness or a draw.

[Ironside]

making it just 3xbb even early means its not too expensive to get away from in a multiway pot

i like to keep my bets the same so my oppos can say oh its 3.5xx bb he must have x

or he has raised more he has a bigger hand

thus on the flop my hand is disguised

also i would never advocate pushing all in here its too early and only internet players push for all there chips when there is plenty of play left

i have been dont to under 200 in these comps at got back into the game without panicing

winning lots of small pots while keeping yousr stack safe is better than winning 1 huge pot where all your chips are at risk

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: Ironside 
Insert Quote
making it just 3xbb even early means its not too expensive to get away from in a multiway pot

i like to keep my bets the same so my oppos can say oh its 3.5xx bb he must have x

or he has raised more he has a bigger hand

thus on the flop my hand is disguised

also i would never advocate pushing all in here its too early and only internet players push for all there chips when there is plenty of play left

i have been dont to under 200 in these comps at got back into the game without panicing

winning lots of small pots while keeping you stack safe is better than winning 1 huge pot where all your chips are at risk

You believed you had the best hand and won the pot. So you were right and played the hand out well.

I posted what I would do. We both would have won the pot with the same profit. I think the all-in gives me a greater chance of getting called because it is often seen as weakness, whereas a pot-commiting re-raise is a clear sign of strength. In addition, the all-in prevents the fatal early outdraw here - A or diamond on the river.

I agree with everything you post in the above response.

If I was playing live at a table of ABC players your philosophy is spot on.

This is a $20 internet comp though. So the size of the mine-field you could run into increases.

You give a lot of credit to your internet opponents by suggesting they will be appreciating your prior betting patterns and then give them stick for pushing. So you say they're good players whilst saying they're bad players.

The fact that internet players are so ready to risk everything is why the all-in is a good move. Like I said he may call with a lower pair and a draw.

I think keeping pots small in the early stages of internet comps can actually be more dangerous to your stack though.

[NoflopsHomer]

Could he not have something like here?

[JungleCat03]

It's results-orientated to think that pushing or reraising a committing amount is "good play" because he passed.

He passed because he had nothing. You basically got a hand to pass that had very little chance of beating you. Congratulations. If he has a set or flush or king he calls, which means you nearly always get called when you are behind and nearly always get a fold when you are ahead.

There's a poker maxim that your bets should be designed to get worse hands calling and better hands folding, an it's a good one.  Obviously it's possible he does call with a worse hand such as the or smaller pp like TT or 99with a diamond, but this is fairly unlikely.

There are times when for various reasons you want to fold out draws but here if he has a draw it is a weak one.

If you want to be results orientated then clearly a better strategy would be to call, and check call any river ( bar a non-diamond ace, this would be a tricky one) as he has nothing and you make chips from his bluff.

Otherwise, check calling is better than raising here, imo as he has nothing a lot and you get chips when he has nothing and dont stack off when he has something strong.

The only merit to pushing the turn is to save a potentially tough decision on a diamond river, but this is an unlikely scenario and for the reasons above is a bad play imo.