Hand of the week 16th April

[Zebediah]

I would either flat call planning to push to any bully raise from him preflop. Though sometimes chicken out.
Doubt I am raising into him with such a marginal hand, can't take a re-raise.

Postflop, if he checked preflop instead of re-raising then i am giving this one up, this flop is just horrible in my eyes, he could have a pair or any draw, or even have a monster after his uncharacteristic check preflop.
I am beating the likes of Q8 or K5 or 8 10, all hands he would have raised preflop IMO. Even if he had 83 off he has a draw.

But the moment he checked preflop my gut feeling is "sneaky bastard alert!".

Wish I had this much time to think on mansion lol, the above took more than 30seconds.

[NoflopsHomer]

Thanks for all your thoughts so far. Here is the 2nd part.


Blinds 6k/12k with a 1k ante.

Thang limps in the SB with  , Peter checks.

Board:



Thang bets 12k, Peter calls.

Turn:



Thang checks, Peter bets 40k, Thang calls.

River:




1. What do you think of Thang's flop bet? And what do you perceive from Peter's call?

2. You hit 2nd pair on the turn, what now? If you intend to call here, what will you do on the river? Will it depend on the river card itself?

3. What do you believe Peter is holding? Overall, how do you think Thang has played the hand?

[Ironside]

flop bet is too weak cant gain any info from the fact it was called
on the turn just give up played it weak from start to finish give up and remember to play the next hand stronger


i think peters 40k bet on turn is weak too but could read it as a please call me or a i have nothing bet but impossible to tell from info

[AndrewT]

1. Purely from a 'take a stab at a pot' perspective, there's nothing wrong with leading out generally, but he's trying it against the wrong sort of opponent. Against a tight player, you've a good chance of taking the pot, and even getting action here gives you a good idea of where you stand. But 12K into a pot of 30K isn't going to make Peter fold the majority of his hands, and won't give Thang any real info. Peter's call could mean anything.

2. Now Thang's flop actions bite him on the bum. The turn card gives him second pair, top kicker, but that could be a mile behind. When he checks, Peter will bet close to 100% of the time, so, again, Thang learns nothing. However, Thang's calling of the bet does give Peter a lot of info - he knows Thang is properly interested in the hand now. So Thang goes into the river out of position against a player who knows more about the strength of Thang's hand than Thang knows of his opponent's holding. See why I originally didn't want to get involved on the flop? The pot is now 134K and Thang has no idea where he is. He's in a world of trouble. Every possible river action has risks. He doesn't know if any money he puts in is a bluff or a value bet, whereas if Peter bets, he'll know whether he's bluffing or milking.

3 Peter saw the flop for free and his actions so far are consistent with playing position and his opponent - they could be with any two cards. Thang has allowed himself to drift into a horrible position.

[Ironside]

1. Purely from a 'take a stab at a pot' perspective, there's nothing wrong with leading out generally, but he's trying it against the wrong sort of opponent. Against a tight player, you've a good chance of taking the pot, and even getting action here gives you a good idea of where you stand. But 12K into a pot of 30K isn't going to make Peter fold the majority of his hands, and won't give Thang any real info. Peter's call could mean anything.

2. Now Thang's flop actions bite him on the bum. The turn card gives him second pair, top kicker, but that could be a mile behind. When he checks, Peter will bet close to 100% of the time, so, again, Thang learns nothing. However, Thang's calling of the bet does give Peter a lot of info - he knows Thang is properly interested in the hand now. So Thang goes into the river out of position against a player who knows more about the strength of Thang's hand than Thang knows of his opponent's holding. See why I originally didn't want to get involved on the flop? The pot is now 134K and Thang has no idea where he is. He's in a world of trouble. Every possible river action has risks. He doesn't know if any money he puts in is a bluff or a value bet, whereas if Peter bets, he'll know whether he's bluffing or milking.

3 Peter saw the flop for free and his actions so far are consistent with playing position and his opponent - they could be with any two cards. Thang has allowed himself to drift into a horrible position.

i concurr

[MANTIS01]

I think that not raising pre-flop is coming back to haunt Thang now

To be honest I think he's making a bit of a mess of the hand.

He didn't raise pre-flop with what could well have been the best hand, decides to bet the flop with nothing, and then checks the turn when he DOES hit something. Pre-flop and the turn are two opportunities to announce he has SOMETHING. He does nothing. The flop is clearly the least opportune time to make this announcement and yet this is what he does. And not in a very convincing way.

I think check-calling 40k on the turn, money that could have been used to raise pre-flop, are the actions of someone who hasn't a clue where they stand but are reluctant to give the hand up. Calling the turn bet is a mystery actually. What card is he hoping to see? I imagine he will hope to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. But is his aggressive opponent going to allow that to happen? I doubt it.

5-handed I think you must play any hand strongly. Checking and calling should be reserved for hands when you feel sure you have the best of it. Is this how Thang feels in this hand?

It wouldn't surprise me if Peter flips K-8 after Thang check-calls a river bet. This is what usually happens when you play weakly. Thang can use his chips to raise pre-flop, he can use them to continuation bet on the flop, and he can use them to check-raise the turn if he thinks he has the best hand. Weak betting and check-calling is not the best short-handed poker I have ever seen.

The river comes a 7 and now Thang's meek play has lead him into a whole host of trouble. What can he beat? If he bets out and is called he looses, if he bets out and is re-raised he folds, if he checks how can he call a big bet? He is now at the mercy of his big-stacked aggressive opponent....nice!

[boldie]

I think that not raising pre-flop is coming back to haunt Thang now

To be honest I think he's making a bit of a mess of the hand.

He didn't raise pre-flop with what could well have been the best hand, decides to bet the flop with nothing, and then checks the turn when he DOES hit something. Pre-flop and the turn are two opportunities to announce he has SOMETHING. He does nothing. The flop is clearly the least opportune time to make this announcement and yet this is what he does. And not in a very convincing way.

I think check-calling 40k on the turn, money that could have been used to raise pre-flop, are the actions of someone who hasn't a clue where they stand but are reluctant to give the hand up. Calling the turn bet is a mystery actually. What card is he hoping to see? I imagine he will hope to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. But is his aggressive opponent going to allow that to happen? I doubt it.

5-handed I think you must play any hand strongly. Checking and calling should be reserved for hands when you feel sure you have the best of it. Is this how Thang feels in this hand?

It wouldn't surprise me if Peter flips K-8 after Thang check-calls a river bet. This is what usually happens when you play weakly. Thang can use his chips to raise pre-flop, he can use them to continuation bet on the flop, and he can use them to check-raise the turn if he thinks he has the best hand. Weak betting and check-calling is not the best short-handed poker I have ever seen.

The river comes a 7 and now Thang's meek play has lead him into a whole host of trouble. What can he beat? If he bets out and is called he looses, if he bets out and is re-raised he folds, if he checks how can he call a big bet? He is now at the mercy of his big-stacked aggressive opponent....nice!

indeed!

[Spitroaster]

I limp in preflop - I do this because if I get reraised I must fold and that quite likely. If he checks we have a better idea what he might hold.

I lead out on this flop, 20K or so - I might have the best hand but if i dont it is probably only to a pair and I still have an over cart and st8 draw plus I can represent if a high card falls on the turn. If i get reraised, a good reraise would almost certainly win it right there unless he had a made St8 or top two pair.

[happybhoy]

1. What do you think of Thang's flop bet?
Pretty much with everyone else, the 12k bet isn't doing anything other than building the pot from what I can see, if there is a rythme or a reason to it it's beyond me.
 - And what do you perceive from Peter's call?
From Peters call I think I would rule out any PP between 77-QQ, too much danger of an overcard falling and I be looking to shut it down here with any of these hands

2. You hit 2nd pair on the turn, what now?
I'm still check/folding. I don't know where I am and I don't reckon 2nd pair is changing the situation much.
 - If you intend to call here, what will you do on the river? Will it depend on the river card itself?
If I'm calling here then it has to be with the intention of hail-marying it on the river regardless of the river card ( but my baws would have to be huge )

3. What do you believe Peter is holding?
Put a gun to my head and ask me to name a hand then 22, other guesses would be 33,44,66,KK,AA.
 - Overall, how do you think Thang has played the hand?
Me no likey. If he correctly reads Peter for having nothing or takes him off a genuine hand on the river then I'd guess thats why I'm not scaring the wsop any time soon.

[doubleup]

Sometimes its worth looking for simple explanations rather than complicated ones.  I think Peter doesn't raise pre-flop because he has a bad hand and feels that Thang might be setting him up for a raise if he bets.

The flop comes down and he calls the small bet with a drawing hand - something like 95.  On the turn he hits his 5 and when Thang checks he bets his pair.

 

[snoopy1239]

For those of you wondering what happened at the end and what Peter had, be sure to click the link below for the final reveal.

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/9131

Thanks to everyone who took part and be sure to give it another crack on Monday.

[Royal Flush]

I think that not raising pre-flop is coming back to haunt Thang now

To be honest I think he's making a bit of a mess of the hand.

He didn't raise pre-flop with what could well have been the best hand, decides to bet the flop with nothing, and then checks the turn when he DOES hit something. Pre-flop and the turn are two opportunities to announce he has SOMETHING. He does nothing. The flop is clearly the least opportune time to make this announcement and yet this is what he does. And not in a very convincing way.

I think check-calling 40k on the turn, money that could have been used to raise pre-flop, are the actions of someone who hasn't a clue where they stand but are reluctant to give the hand up. Calling the turn bet is a mystery actually. What card is he hoping to see? I imagine he will hope to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. But is his aggressive opponent going to allow that to happen? I doubt it.

5-handed I think you must play any hand strongly. Checking and calling should be reserved for hands when you feel sure you have the best of it. Is this how Thang feels in this hand?

It wouldn't surprise me if Peter flips K-8 after Thang check-calls a river bet. This is what usually happens when you play weakly. Thang can use his chips to raise pre-flop, he can use them to continuation bet on the flop, and he can use them to check-raise the turn if he thinks he has the best hand. Weak betting and check-calling is not the best short-handed poker I have ever seen.

The river comes a 7 and now Thang's meek play has lead him into a whole host of trouble. What can he beat? If he bets out and is called he looses, if he bets out and is re-raised he folds, if he checks how can he call a big bet? He is now at the mercy of his big-stacked aggressive opponent....nice!

IMO you are wrong on nearly every point.

[MANTIS01]

-Negative reinforcement

When presented by itself is not allowed. Eg, telling someone their play was no good, without saying why this is.

IMO you are wrong on nearly every point.

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."

[NoflopsHomer]

I think that not raising pre-flop is coming back to haunt Thang now

To be honest I think he's making a bit of a mess of the hand.

He didn't raise pre-flop with what could well have been the best hand, decides to bet the flop with nothing, and then checks the turn when he DOES hit something. Pre-flop and the turn are two opportunities to announce he has SOMETHING. He does nothing. The flop is clearly the least opportune time to make this announcement and yet this is what he does. And not in a very convincing way.

I think check-calling 40k on the turn, money that could have been used to raise pre-flop, are the actions of someone who hasn't a clue where they stand but are reluctant to give the hand up. Calling the turn bet is a mystery actually. What card is he hoping to see? I imagine he will hope to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. But is his aggressive opponent going to allow that to happen? I doubt it.

5-handed I think you must play any hand strongly. Checking and calling should be reserved for hands when you feel sure you have the best of it. Is this how Thang feels in this hand?

It wouldn't surprise me if Peter flips K-8 after Thang check-calls a river bet. This is what usually happens when you play weakly. Thang can use his chips to raise pre-flop, he can use them to continuation bet on the flop, and he can use them to check-raise the turn if he thinks he has the best hand. Weak betting and check-calling is not the best short-handed poker I have ever seen.

The river comes a 7 and now Thang's meek play has lead him into a whole host of trouble. What can he beat? If he bets out and is called he looses, if he bets out and is re-raised he folds, if he checks how can he call a big bet? He is now at the mercy of his big-stacked aggressive opponent....nice!

IMO you are wrong on nearly every point.

Elaboration please...or at the very least, the rules on how to play Scottish...

[Royal Flush]

-Negative reinforcement

When presented by itself is not allowed. Eg, telling someone their play was no good, without saying why this is.

IMO you are wrong on nearly every point.

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."

I was actually saying i thought the guy played the hand well, i would have done the same as him on every street. It was your analysis that i thought was all wrong, not the guys play.

Elaboration please...or at the very least, the rules on how to play Scottish...

BB4 a game of Scottish is on the cards.