Am I Horrible For Doing this? Would you have done the same???

[KOConnell]

Poker is War and all is fair in love and War :-)  this is a very strange one because as every one says cards speak BUT if cards hit the muck there dead so it all depends on how quick this all went down it seems to me all the cards were on there back before the river SO the dealer at that stage CAN'T muck a winning hand BUT there is no rule that says a player CAN'T muck a winning hand so if the GUY mucked his cards before the dealer did any thing HE LOST if the dealer just sat there looking at the flop and did nothing I would not let him deal to me sorry to bust your bubble Ariston and any one else but there are the rules world wide and poker is not full of nice guys in fact there are a lot of pricks out there and they want your cash like vampires want your blood

[tantrum]

Answer one question---- the cards are on their backs on the turn---- is a showdown - can you muck them?  I don't think so...

Obviously jjandalis has no idea what the showdown is- bless you child....

Jjandalis very smart of you setting up the scene so people will feel sympathetic to your actions, if it was an old lady - the support would be much lesser.

[dik9]

Poker is War and all is fair in love and War :-)  this is a very strange one because as every one says cards speak BUT if cards hit the muck there dead so it all depends on how quick this all went down it seems to me all the cards were on there back before the river SO the dealer at that stage CAN'T muck a winning hand BUT there is no rule that says a player CAN'T muck a winning hand so if the GUY mucked his cards before the dealer did any thing HE LOST if the dealer just sat there looking at the flop and did nothing I would not let him deal to me sorry to bust your bubble Ariston and any one else but there are the rules world wide and poker is not full of nice guys in fact there are a lot of pricks out there and they want your cash like vampires want your blood

Once action has forced an "on their backs situation" i.e. no more betting due to a player/players being all in, with cards to come on the board, once the cards have been tabled they are live. The player should have nothing more to do with the hand, it is down to the dealer to "kill" hands. The player should not be allowed to "kill" their own hand. Furthermore it is down to any player, if they notice an irregularity has taken place to state it. So I am afraid in my book, Ariston's "bubble" is still in tact.

[tikay]

This is a real odd one.

Forget all the nonsense about the "grudge factor" - that is not relevant.

What we have here are two rules that clash - "cards speak" & "mucked cards = hand killed".

The concensus seems to be that the hand should go to Broadway Straight Man - fair enough, it's tough to argue conclusively either way, & in the grand scheme of things, that's OK by me.

But the OP - who I readily admit is a pal - was honest enough to come on here & ask the question.

And if I read the Post correctly, he asked the Dealer the score, & the Dealer summoned the TD. The TD made a Ruling - whether it was right or wrong is not relevant - he gave a Ruling, & unless we want anarchy in our Cardrooms, we need to respect TD's decisions.

Lots of mistakes were made here - arguably, & variously, by one or more players, by the Dealer, & by the TD.

As to the tone of the thread as a whole, it's a shame that some folks can't be a bit more creative with the way they word things. The OP may have been entirely wrong in what he did, maybe, maybe not. But he is not a cheat, he's an honourable geezer. He may well have made a mistake, but I don't see why folks have to be so provocative, & go looking for trouble. The Mods spend half their time damping down fires, while others seem to delght in pouring petrol on the fire.

It's possible for grown-ups to have a cracking debate without making emotive accusations. Call someone a cheat, & there is bound to be a ruck. Say "imo, you were wrong sunshine" & we get a good debate that stays on track, & we all learn from it.

[Royal Flush]

Quite early in night I look down and see  . I raise to 300 (3 bb) from an early position. Everyone folds to Lady (lets call her Doris) on the cut off re-raisesto 800. Fold-fold-to BB (lets call him Beavis) who puts in a massive raise to about 2800.

I am going to the fold, but want to build up my own image. So I hum and ha and then state to the table....'I have a hand...but I dunno if I can play to this. Doris is a rock and that re-raise is rather scary'. I happen to know she is very tight. Beavis is also relatively inexperienced and gave away a massive tell.

So I folded. Doris folds, Beavis takes pot.

Insta-call.

All folds round to Bob in the SB. He calls. Got a read, I know he's on an Ace or King ...probably with high kicker. Bobs obviously not as good as he makes out :-)

LOL can i back you into the WSOP please, with reads like that you can never lose.

I quickly check and Bob fires in 500 chips. I call. Pot is 2200.

You should let the SB act first really, acting out of turn is against the rules.

Naturally I call.

Cards on their backs, Bob droans 'I've been caught out'....

He has 

Now for the juicy bit...

River comes...

 

Cards on their back, you lost take it like a gent.

You are basically an angle shooter, which is as bad as a cheat you look to abuse rules and hope for cardroom staff errors to take advantage of people. Acting like this will get you a horrible reputation, if i was a regular in Southampton i would inform everyone of your personal character.

[I KNOW IT]

Why do I always look for flushys posts 1st when I log on at this time of morning

[Royal Flush]

Why do I always look for flushys posts 1st when I log on at this time of morning

Because you know it....

[ariston]

It's possible for grown-ups to have a cracking debate without making emotive accusations. Call someone a cheat, & there is bound to be a ruck. Say "imo, you were wrong sunshine" & we get a good debate that stays on track, & we all learn from it.


[/quote

fair enough- you were wrong sunshine and now you know don't do it again

 Now he has said earlier in the thread he wouldn't do it again I don't class him a cheat but in this circumstance I think he cheated. If someone unknowingly cheats and is then told about it later it doesn't mean he is branded a cheat forever, if he was to do it again then thats a different thing.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by Tikay:
Forget all the nonsense about the "grudge factor" - that is not relevant.

For me it is the technical ruling that is the wholly irrelevant aspect of this thread with the "grudge factor" being the most vital of elements.

Whether a specific rule on any given day is implemented correctly or not is as irrelevant as whether the ball crossed the line in the '66 world cup final. It "did"... England won...end of. Debate about something that can't be changed is insignificant in comparison to the emotional reaction to it.

One day a person invented poker and some other people wrote down some rules.

But the "fight or flight" instincts that we have as human beings are light years more powerful than what someone wrote down one day and described as a "rule". So when 10 people sit down to play poker what happens with the "balance of power" is compelling stuff. Often the cause of the argument is just an insignificant spark that leads to a battle over who gets the psychological upper hand.

In this thread jj was allowing "Bob" to rankle him. When this situation arose an opportunity presented itself for jj to gain the upper hand...he seized it. Even after the "ruling" he could have given the pot to it's ethical (maybe not technical) owner. But didn't. To keep the pot was to rankle "Bob" back and gain the upper hand. "Bob" tries to re-seize the initiative by threatening to "key" jj's car etc....(N.B. To give the pot to "Bob" wins the war period.)

If you read the numerous exchanges between ariston and iceman it is clear the "ruling" has long been forgotten and it is now just a question of who can impose himself on the other and who gets the last word in.

If you go out on Friday night wearing your favourite shirt you feel great. But if someone points at your shirt and laughs (you must get this tikay) how do you feel now? Do you feel the same about your shirt? If not why not? Does it cease to be your favourite shirt because of what someone else thinks? Or do you have the ability to just shrug your shoulders and continue to enjoy wearing it regardless?

Your potential as a poker player can NEVER be reached if you allow your EMOTIONS to enter the decision making process. This point carries even more serious consequences if you allow others at the table to actually CONTROL these emotions and your behaviour generally.

I very rarely if ever let anyone get under my skin...to care about someone's opinion at the table is to give that opinion importance...I don't care what my opponents think...it isn't important...so how can I get annoyed?

To become detached from emotion at the table is surely the pinnacle that we should all be striving for.

So it is impossible to say the "grudge factor" is irrelevant in this clearly emotional debate because it is the "grudge factor" that turns threads like this into the hot-bed of opinion enforcement and mud-slinging that is has actually become.

So Tikay.....if you would be kind enough to tell me what car you drive my key is at the ready!

[phatomch]

What was not pointed out was that this was a self dealt game and the pot had been awarded to jj, at this point the other player mucked there cards into the discards. When the td was called there was no possible way of 100% knowing what the cards had been as it was a call after the river and the player mucked the cards instantly.

[dik9]

What was not pointed out was that this was a self dealt game and the pot had been awarded to jj, at this point the other player mucked there cards into the discards. When the td was called there was no possible way of 100% knowing what the cards had been as it was a call after the river and the player mucked the cards instantly.

He states they were on their backs before the river? And the cards were tabled?

A little later on I look down to see  in second position. Same suits as last time! This time I raise 2.5 bb to 500. All folds round to Bob in the SB. He calls. Got a read, I know he's on an Ace or King ...probably with high kicker. Bobs obviously not as good as he makes out :-) He calls. Beavis in BB folds.

Pot is 1200.

Flop comes...

 

BEAUTIFUL!

I quickly check and Bob fires in 500 chips. I call. Pot is 2200.

Turn...

 

I check, Bob puts me all in for my last 5000 or so.

Naturally I call.

Cards on their backs, Bob droans 'I've been caught out'....

He has 

Now for the juicy bit...

River comes...

 

I sit stock still trying to register what I thought I had seen.

I hear 'unlucky mate' and then see Bob saying 'yeah I got caught out'. He picks up his Ace and mucks it!!!!!

Well! All my christmases have come at once! I've escaped a bad beat, made lots of chips and have a chance for some sweet revenge on this fella!

Another players says 'No Bob...u won that with a straight!'

He says...'Oh yeah', retrieves his cards and starts to pull in the pot!

I say 'Er no. Leave those chips alone they're mine. You mucked your hand'

To which chaos lets loose! He says he only mucked one card. I tell him his hand is mucked. At which point he spews some drivel about having a similar situation recently in a card school. He stated that the cards were on their backs and everyone knew what they were. He stated that as such, he could then muck the card and take the pot. I told him that was not the case and sorry, but u muck one card your hand is mucked. I advise him to get a ruling.

[iceman]

you raise some good points here and in a reflective mood ive questioned my intenions in regards of the discourse i had with ariston. as for me my attitude was very out of character and one that i wouldnt like to see myself repeat as im normally very level headed and not quick to anger especially with somebody who i dont even know.

im not going to drag up any of the pre discussed issues,theyve been covered over and over but id like to say that no matter what any1 says im gona carry on wearing my I LUV ARISTON T-SHIRT whatever anybody says.

[phatomch]

his memory must be worse than mine, or trying to give it more of a good story.

[dik9]

his memory must be worse than mine, or trying to give it more of a good story.

In which case thats a whole new spin, and a completely different story

[phatomch]

The main point is that it was a self - dealt game in which the player discarded his own cards into the pot, which had been awarded to jj. The cards speak rule can not be applied because only one person still has active cards that the td can 100% verify.