Liverpool FC

[The Baron]

I think he has held you back by being tactically naive in the domestic league ... he sets you playing the european way against teams like Blackburn, Stoke and others .. and those teams dont play football the european way ... they hassle you, they bite your ankles and they get right at you, in close and physical ... he does not adapt his tactics well enough week in week out in the league.

And that has cost you plenty of points.

Fair one. The two DMs drives me nuts sometimes!

[Josedinho]

Nothing against Liverpool but its a real shame the top 4 give you champions league spots, it means teams can be happy to come 2nd 3rd or 4th and it's all wrong. How can a team as big as Liverpool accept coming runners up as good?

It's not accepted by Reds fans - but to say finishing as runners up, considering our resources, is a bad thing is a bit ott.

This "considering our resources" thing is baffling me a bit.

Rafa spent £200mill on players since he came in.

http://www.liverweb.org.uk/benitez.asp

 Chelsea, by comparison, spent £225 mill between 2005 and 2007. (according to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2321598/Jose-Mourinhos-transfer-spending-at-Chelsea.html )

Arsenal obv ridic low

http://arsenal-mania.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31663

I couldn't find ManU transfer spending for the past few years but only had a quick look TBF.

All above figures might have some faults in them but as indicators of what's been spent it's close enough to show that Rafa had plenty of resources available. He's just not spent it very well.

NET is the key.  Chelsea haven't had to sell players to fund new ones.

Look at the net spend.

Does this make things better? In terms of striking options Rafa sells Bellamy and Crouchand funds a deal for Keane who he sells for a loss 6 months later. Probably little net effect but he had 3 players that would improve the current squad and has sold all of them. I think that makes him look like he hasn't done well in the transfer market.
When he came in i think it is a valid arguement the high turnover of players in and out to generate profit but he is now buying players to win a title not to make profit (Glen Johnson for example) and he isn't doing well enough in some areas.

Ok this post is so full of holes it's a sieve.

Firstly he sells Bellamy and Crouch for a profit. Secondly Crouch wanted to go and he didn't want to sell him.

Thirdly Keane wasn't happy on the bench. Of all our big buys (Mascherano Torres Johnson) Keane had the lowest risk as someone very established here in the EPL with a good record but he didn't play well at all. The effect of the media circus around him when starting on the bench every second week was ridiculous and it affected the team. (On a side note it's amazing how this isn't highlighted at Spurs when one of them doesn't play - fascinating!) Upon selling Keane for a loss, that couldn't really be helped due to his performances, we went on the best half season run since we won the league and making us top scorers along the way - the team totally gelled once again. Not exactly a bad choice. N'gog has also come on in spades. So he got a big one wrong once - I'd love to compare to another top manager who's gotten a few big ones wrong - oh wait I did in the post above.

Yes, so now as you mention at the end he's buying players to improve the first XI and challenge for the league. How is Johnson not an improvement? He's possibly the best attacking right back around right now and last year we had problems breaking down sides at home so it's a good purchase surely? If Alonso/Hyypia hadn't left we'd have brought another first team player as well of this I am sure.

You've missed a few of my points, my fault, i find it hard to put my point across well on the internet sometmes.
I mentioned Crouch and Bellamy BECAUSE they were sold for profit to show just beacuse he isn't losing as much money as others it doesn't mean he is buying well.
Crouch wanted to play not leave. Liverpool rarely change formation so Torres when fit is always the man upfront. Other top 4 teams play 1 up top in a lot of big games but agaist weaker teams change it up and other strikers are given a chance to play. I think it is highlighted just as much when a striker doesn't play at Spurs but Keane & Crouch seem happy at Spurs when it's 3 strikers rotating in 2 positions. Sitting on the bench waiting for a Torres injury is a bit different.
I do believe Johnson is an improvement, and a player good enough to play in a title winning team. I was using him as an example to show that Liverpool are now not buying a slightly better player quite cheap to sell him and and repeat. They are buying players that they believe are good enough to win the title.

[The Baron]

You've missed a few of my points, my fault, i find it hard to put my point across well on the internet sometmes.
I mentioned Crouch and Bellamy BECAUSE they were sold for profit to show just beacuse he isn't losing as much money as others it doesn't mean he is buying well.

Ah ok I'm with you. I agree to an extent but if they are sold for profit they aren't bad buys really? I think there is definitely a method there of upgrading a year or two at a time with slightly better strikers year on year (Baros,Cisse,Sinama-Pongolle > Mellor,Cisse,Morientes>Crouch,Bellamy,Morientes>Torres,Crouch, prior to Torres,Keane which didnt work out - I am sure we will buy another striker but I do rate N'gog)

Crouch wanted to play not leave. Liverpool rarely change formation so Torres when fit is always the man upfront. Other top 4 teams play 1 up top in a lot of big games but agaist weaker teams change it up and other strikers are given a chance to play.

The problem is the emergence of Gerrard as a 2nd striker or modern day 'disequilbrante' (as that is what he is now) and it's tough to replicate with someone else and Torres and they are both so far ahead of the game mentally. I would put them up there as the best front two on earth and someone like Crouch wouldn't ever be happy just paying home games vs the Stokes and Hulls of the EPL.

I think it is highlighted just as much when a striker doesn't play at Spurs but Keane & Crouch seem happy at Spurs when it's 3 strikers rotating in 2 positions. Sitting on the bench waiting for a Torres injury is a bit different.

I dont agree that it is highlighted with the same negative connotations at Spurs at all. I also dont believe it is back page news the next day, like it was at Liverpool for four months. And it's four strikers for two positions (Pavlyuchenko). At Liverpool it was two strikers for one position (two positions when Gerrard wasn't fit) - the bottom line is Keane didn't play well enough. Crouch was impatient in the sense that the year he left he would have had a shedload more games - he was there when Torres and Gerrard were totally fit which is unlikely to ever be the case again!

I do believe Johnson is an improvement, and a player good enough to play in a title winning team. I was using him as an example to show that Liverpool are now not buying a slightly better player quite cheap to sell him and and repeat. They are buying players that they believe are good enough to win the title.

Ah ok sorry - totally misread your post!

[George2Loose]

I don't really read the gutter press but I would have Rafa in the top 10 managers worldwide.

Probably fair:

Ferguson
Wenger
Lippi
Trappatoni
Capello
Hitzfeld
Ancelotti (?)
Del Bosque (?)
Mourinho
Hiddink (?)
Van Gaal


Cant think of loads of others.

I would include Capello and even Guardiola even tho he's only had one season. As much as everyone hated Sven he was up there

[kinboshi]

Sorry if this has been asked or outlined before but did he buy Keane or was he bought without his full recommendation?

Kinboshi and I have differing views on this.

I was told by someone who I trust 100% that Rafa DID want Keane but only AFTER Barry. When the board refused to saction £18m for Barry (who they believed they could get for £10m the next season and would certainly come plus Alonso wouldn't even fetch £16m at the time) they got Keane anyway. Rafa was seething etc etc - Barry had to come first in his eyes and a striker was not his priority.

I think Kinboshi says it was his buy but I cant remember.

I don't think I did say it was Rafa's buy (if I did, I was wrong), as I've heard for sure that it wasn't his choice to bring him in.

Made no sense in terms of how Rafa sets the side up with one up top.  Someone like Tevez would have been ideal for us (if we'd been able to get him for a price we could afford)as he can fit in behind Torres either in the hole or on either side, but Keane didn't 'fit in'.  Rafa's made some poor purchases, but not with the big signings.  As Aaron's said, he hasn't proved to be as astute with the bargains as Wenger has (but who has?), and he hasn't had the budget to by multiple £20M+ players like Chelsea and Ferguson have had the luxury of doing.

[The Baron]

Sorry if this has been asked or outlined before but did he buy Keane or was he bought without his full recommendation?

Kinboshi and I have differing views on this.

I was told by someone who I trust 100% that Rafa DID want Keane but only AFTER Barry. When the board refused to saction £18m for Barry (who they believed they could get for £10m the next season and would certainly come plus Alonso wouldn't even fetch £16m at the time) they got Keane anyway. Rafa was seething etc etc - Barry had to come first in his eyes and a striker was not his priority.

I think Kinboshi says it was his buy but I cant remember.

I don't think I did say it was Rafa's buy (if I did, I was wrong), as I've heard for sure that it wasn't his choice to bring him in.

Ah yeah that was it - my badnessly.

[The Baron]

I don't really read the gutter press but I would have Rafa in the top 10 managers worldwide.

Probably fair:

Ferguson
Wenger
Lippi
Trappatoni
Capello
Hitzfeld
Ancelotti (?)
Del Bosque (?)
Mourinho
Hiddink (?)
Van Gaal


Cant think of loads of others.

I would include Capello and even Guardiola even tho he's only had one season. As much as everyone hated Sven he was up there

I did put Capello in - he's top 3/5 for me, and I only excluded Guardiola due to his one season. Rijkaard has done sweet fa since Barca as have several managers after going to Barca and Real and inheriting great squads and "buying" titles then going elsewhere and doing nothing.

Sven for me isn't good enough for that list. His title at Lazio cost £200m in one year (which is more than Hughes or Mourinho ever spent in one season!) and after he left the club didn't recover financially for years. His record after that is average.

Oh and Sacchi would be on the list but I dont think he'll ever manage again.

[kinboshi]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6919543.ece

Good article imo.

[The Baron]

This comment on the article sums it up for me:

Posted by a Liverpool Fan:

The weight of unwarranted expectation is severe at Anfield especially considering the logical facts.

We have the 5th most expensive team in the League and the 4th highest wage bill, why is it many Liverpool fans expect us to win the League Title considering those facts?

Our squad cost is £50m behind that of Spurs in 4th place, with money and success unquestionably bound why are we (based solely on prior success) expected to win the League? It's been a common problem in recent years that more and more Liverpool fans expect us to be winning Titles as some sort of devine birth right, "We are Liverpool and must win the Title!". I'm sorry but I don't buy into this viewpoint, we are Liverpool, we have the 4th highest wage bill and the 5th most expensive squad, logically finishing 4th would be over-achieving. Finishing 1st would be a miracle.

[nirvana]

The problem is the emergence of Gerrard as a 2nd striker or modern day 'disequilbrante' (as that is what he is now) and it's tough to replicate with someone else and Torres and they are both so far ahead of the game mentally. I would put them up there as the best front two on earth

Normally some interesting points here but this is just lol. Torres is outstanding and could potentially form part of the best front 2 on earth. Gerrard ? he may huff and puff but he doesn't have the power, skill or craft to form the best 2 on earth in any position. They wouldn't even be close to being the best front 2 in the premiership. Could anybody bar a liverpool fan put them ahead of Drogba and Anelka as just one example ?

Liverpool would be a much better side with Gerrard in the middle of the park and another decent striker alongside Torres imo

[Div]

Lots of detail in here with straight quotes from Benitez on Barry and Keane.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6920873.ece

[kinboshi]

Lots of detail in here with straight quotes from Benitez on Barry and Keane.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6920873.ece

"Michael Owen - I couldn’t change his mind about going to Real. Two years later we had a conversation about the possibility of returning but he decided to go to Newcastle. He scores goals. This time round, I had a better goalscorer. "

[The Baron]

The problem is the emergence of Gerrard as a 2nd striker or modern day 'disequilbrante' (as that is what he is now) and it's tough to replicate with someone else and Torres and they are both so far ahead of the game mentally. I would put them up there as the best front two on earth.

Normally some interesting points here but this is just lol. Torres is outstanding and could potentially form part of the best front 2 on earth. Gerrard ? he may huff and puff but he doesn't have the power, skill or craft to form the best 2 on earth in any position. They wouldn't even be close to being the best front 2 in the premiership. Could anybody bar a liverpool fan put them ahead of Drogba and Anelka as just one example ?

Liverpool would be a much better side with Gerrard in the middle of the park and another decent striker alongside Torres imo

Ummm Gerrard not have power (!) skill (!!) or craft (!!!)? I guess no one does then. I dont really know what to write to that if I'm honest. He was the top english scorer last season playing off the front man and wasn't even fit for large parts of it and he is Liverpool's highest ever scorer in European football most of his goals coming as an advanced midfielder. Also the years he's been in the middle we've not gone close to winning the title, when he plays off the front we do go close and finish comfortably above Chelsea. So the evidence seems to strongly disagree that he doesn't cut it there.

This season I agree about Drogba and Anelka - no question. Last season however they weren't very good together on the whole (there were calls for only one of them to play at a time), and Gerrard and Torres tore apart Man Utd, Real Madrid, Chelsea, Villa etc etc scoring fours and fives for fun. I think Sir Alex said it best about them when questioned about the sale of Alonso when he came out with "I dont think it'll make too much difference, Liverpool are all about Gerrard and Torres up front. They are the drive of the entire team".

Even Andy Gray, the most anti-Liverpool man on Earth talks about him as a second striker as his best position now (finally). Don't get me wrong he's not a Riquelme type player and wont ever be, but he's as close to an English modern day disequilbrante as you're going to find in the EPL.

[The Baron]

Lots of detail in here with straight quotes from Benitez on Barry and Keane.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6920873.ece

Interesting stuff. Buying Barry and Keane would have changed our whole system by the sounds of it. (Sounds more like a diamond with two up top)

[The Baron]

RAFA'S FORWARD THINKING
Dear Martin. I think David Ngog has been getting too much stick lately. Can you show me what his scoring stats are like compared to the other strikers Rafael Benitez has signed. I bet his goals per game ratio is strong. Ben.

MARTIN SAYS: I have detailed the scoring records of nine of the main strikers Benitez has signed during his time at Liverpool. The list includes Premier League goals only and unsurprisingly, Fernando Torres has far and away the best goals per game record - but it is interesting to see Robbie Fowler second in the table with a record of eight goals in 30 games in his second spell at Anfield.

The man you are asking about, David Ngog just comes third on the list with five goals in 19 games - exactly the same record as Robbie Keane. However, Ngog has only started three Premier League games whereas the Irishman started 16. You'll see that Craig Bellamy, Peter Crouch and Dirk Kuyt have almost identical records - althought the Dutchman has of course largely been used in wide midfield after being signed as a striker.

The Premier League goalscoring record of Liverpool strikers signed by Rafael Benitez is below:



Player Games (start) Games (as sub) Total games Goals Goals per game


Fernando Torres 59 8 67 48 0.716

Robbie Fowler 15 15 30 8 0.267

David Ngog 3 16 19 5 0.263

Robbie Keane 16 3 19 5 0.263

Peter Crouch 55 30 85 22 0.259

Dirk Kuyt 99 17 116 30 0.259

Craig Bellamy 23 4 27 7 0.259

Fernando Morientes 32 9 41 8 0.195

Andriy Voronin 14 13 27 5 0.185