Liverpool FC

[boldie]

Whinge by Tomkins about how other people don't like Liverpool and are mean to poor little Rafa

To summarise for thos who can't be bothered reading the entire thing.

[Josedinho]

That's probably quite fair. I read one of these articles last season and thought it was fair enough but it's week in week out addressing something that is "wrong" at Liverpool and how it's not actually a problem. I don't think he has mentioned Rafa ever making a mistake.
I don't actually think Liverpool get that much stick people just point out facts like "Liverpool have lost more games this season than last" and Liverpool fans go "that's because of this, that, the other and it's not actually that bad" nobody said it was but they go defensive.

A couple of things that i've picked up on from one of the above Tomkins articles -
"After 2005, people said that massive league improvement was the key to judging him a success: "It's easy to win a few cup games". Last season, we saw that improvement taken to a 20-year high, in terms of points. Then it was "Ah, but no trophy".
 
Few praised him for enabling his team to lose the lowest ever number of games by a team that failed to win the league; at a time when also managing the league's top scorers; so this was no defensive team."
Nobody else has only lost 2 games and not won the title. It isn't an achievement to be able to do so. What the stat is saying is basically if you only lose 2 games you should win the title. "We only lost 2 games and still managed not to win the title - amazing!"

"If anyone hasn't yet read the incredibly insightful book “Soccernomics/Why England Lose”, they really should, for their own good. It backs up Christian Purslow's belief that clubs “should not make managerial and strategical decisions around results in the short-term”."
These books also say to win cups you need luck, not to say the teams aren't good that win them but it's too small a sample size to show who is best. The really good teams win leagues and keep winning them.

[Murph1984]

Careful you two,you'll be accused of trolling 

[kinboshi]

Careful you two,you'll be accused of trolling 

Think you need to read up on the definition of trolling.

[kinboshi]

That's probably quite fair. I read one of these articles last season and thought it was fair enough but it's week in week out addressing something that is "wrong" at Liverpool and how it's not actually a problem. I don't think he has mentioned Rafa ever making a mistake.
I don't actually think Liverpool get that much stick people just point out facts like "Liverpool have lost more games this season than last" and Liverpool fans go "that's because of this, that, the other and it's not actually that bad" nobody said it was but they go defensive.

A couple of things that i've picked up on from one of the above Tomkins articles -
"After 2005, people said that massive league improvement was the key to judging him a success: "It's easy to win a few cup games". Last season, we saw that improvement taken to a 20-year high, in terms of points. Then it was "Ah, but no trophy".
 
Few praised him for enabling his team to lose the lowest ever number of games by a team that failed to win the league; at a time when also managing the league's top scorers; so this was no defensive team."
Nobody else has only lost 2 games and not won the title. It isn't an achievement to be able to do so. What the stat is saying is basically if you only lose 2 games you should win the title. "We only lost 2 games and still managed not to win the title - amazing!"

"If anyone hasn't yet read the incredibly insightful book “Soccernomics/Why England Lose”, they really should, for their own good. It backs up Christian Purslow's belief that clubs “should not make managerial and strategical decisions around results in the short-term”."
These books also say to win cups you need luck, not to say the teams aren't good that win them but it's too small a sample size to show who is best. The really good teams win leagues and keep winning them.

Interesting stat they mentioned before the derby on Sunday.  Liverpool and Everton have lost more games already this season in the league than they lost in the whole of last season.  Have the teams changed that drastically, have their manager's approaches?  Rafa's definitely trying to be more attacking, some of that has been enforced, but it seems to be part of his 'long-term' plan.  Everton have had lots of injuries and have effectively lost the spine of their defence, and without a big squad it's understandable that it'll affect them. 

[The Baron]

That's probably quite fair. I read one of these articles last season and thought it was fair enough but it's week in week out addressing something that is "wrong" at Liverpool and how it's not actually a problem. I don't think he has mentioned Rafa ever making a mistake.
I don't actually think Liverpool get that much stick people just point out facts like "Liverpool have lost more games this season than last" and Liverpool fans go "that's because of this, that, the other and it's not actually that bad" nobody said it was but they go defensive.

A couple of things that i've picked up on from one of the above Tomkins articles -
"After 2005, people said that massive league improvement was the key to judging him a success: "It's easy to win a few cup games". Last season, we saw that improvement taken to a 20-year high, in terms of points. Then it was "Ah, but no trophy".
  
Few praised him for enabling his team to lose the lowest ever number of games by a team that failed to win the league; at a time when also managing the league's top scorers; so this was no defensive team."
Nobody else has only lost 2 games and not won the title. It isn't an achievement to be able to do so. What the stat is saying is basically if you only lose 2 games you should win the title. "We only lost 2 games and still managed not to win the title - amazing!"

"If anyone hasn't yet read the incredibly insightful book “Soccernomics/Why England Lose”, they really should, for their own good. It backs up Christian Purslow's belief that clubs “should not make managerial and strategical decisions around results in the short-term”."
These books also say to win cups you need luck, not to say the teams aren't good that win them but it's too small a sample size to show who is best. The really good teams win leagues and keep winning them.

I do actually agree with a lot of that (especially this season) but what everyone except Liverpool fans seem to miss is the unfair media coverage Rafa gets. To be honest it's ridiculous. You've hit the nail on the head by saying you dont think Liverpool get that much stick - you wont ever get Tomkins articles or why they are written then. Ballague said after Mourinho left the next in line for abuse as the panto villain would be Rafa and he's 100% spot on. (Funny how the British press now love Mourinho again) I accept a large amount of criticism is fair this season, but it's been going on long before that quite unfairly.

Tomkins is obviously just trying to put a complete spin on this so of course he's not mentioning Rafa making mistakes.

Nobody else has only lost 2 games and not won the title. It isn't an achievement to be able to do so. What the stat is saying is basically if you only lose 2 games you should win the title. "We only lost 2 games and still managed not to win the title - amazing!"

You are right it's not an achievement, but it is a measure of how far we have come in the league (as far as you can measure success without a trophy) and to be honest it's not a bad measure. All he's saying is it's a good sign of progress and Rafa still got the negative spin on this vast league improvement. Had this been any other manager bar Chelsea's it'd be deemed amazing! Rafa does it and it's met with "still not achieved much in the league" "underperormed" etc etc. Ridiculous.

"If anyone hasn't yet read the incredibly insightful book “Soccernomics/Why England Lose”, they really should, for their own good. It backs up Christian Purslow's belief that clubs “should not make managerial and strategical decisions around results in the short-term”."
These books also say to win cups you need luck, not to say the teams aren't good that win them but it's too small a sample size to show who is best. The really good teams win leagues and keep winning them.

This is fair but I dont think Tomkins would disagree with that sentiment.

[Murph1984]

Careful you two,you'll be accused of trolling 

Think you need to read up on the definition of trolling.

no u

ducy?

[The Baron]

That's probably quite fair. I read one of these articles last season and thought it was fair enough but it's week in week out addressing something that is "wrong" at Liverpool and how it's not actually a problem. I don't think he has mentioned Rafa ever making a mistake.
I don't actually think Liverpool get that much stick people just point out facts like "Liverpool have lost more games this season than last" and Liverpool fans go "that's because of this, that, the other and it's not actually that bad" nobody said it was but they go defensive.

A couple of things that i've picked up on from one of the above Tomkins articles -
"After 2005, people said that massive league improvement was the key to judging him a success: "It's easy to win a few cup games". Last season, we saw that improvement taken to a 20-year high, in terms of points. Then it was "Ah, but no trophy".
 
Few praised him for enabling his team to lose the lowest ever number of games by a team that failed to win the league; at a time when also managing the league's top scorers; so this was no defensive team."
Nobody else has only lost 2 games and not won the title. It isn't an achievement to be able to do so. What the stat is saying is basically if you only lose 2 games you should win the title. "We only lost 2 games and still managed not to win the title - amazing!"

"If anyone hasn't yet read the incredibly insightful book “Soccernomics/Why England Lose”, they really should, for their own good. It backs up Christian Purslow's belief that clubs “should not make managerial and strategical decisions around results in the short-term”."
These books also say to win cups you need luck, not to say the teams aren't good that win them but it's too small a sample size to show who is best. The really good teams win leagues and keep winning them.

Interesting stat they mentioned before the derby on Sunday.  Liverpool and Everton have lost more games already this season in the league than they lost in the whole of last season.  Have the teams changed that drastically, have their manager's approaches?  Rafa's definitely trying to be more attacking, some of that has been enforced, but it seems to be part of his 'long-term' plan.  Everton have had lots of injuries and have effectively lost the spine of their defence, and without a big squad it's understandable that it'll affect them. 

Precisely what Tomkins is saying but look at how the managers are treated in pretty much the same scenario. Moyes is covered by "loads of injuries - understandable" whilst Rafa gets "lost the plot" "should be sacked" "mounting pressure" etc almost daily in the rags when a) the fans dont want him out and b) the board dont want him out - so where is this pressure coming from? If it's not a witch hunt I dont know what is!

[The Baron]

Just a quick compare for something posted on the Chelsea OFFICIAL website. Real class obv...

ICE BIT OF HISTORY
Posted on: Sat 28 Nov 2009

History, dontcha love it?

Short of Arsenal being relegated there is nothing quite so delightful as seeing Liverpool knocked out of the Champions League.

In the group stage as well, and with one match still to play. A quick glance at the record books suggests this is a first for an English club - Man Utd hung on till the final group stage game in 2005 - so definitely a piece of a history there.

And funnily enough - as Motty used to tell Trevor Brooking - I think you'll find (heh heh) that Man Utd beat Debrecen twice that year too. You could call it a Hungarian Rhapsody.

£359 million in debt - give or take the odd £5 million. Exiled to Channel 5. Struggling to keep pace with Spurs... It doesn't get much funnier than this, and to add to the fun it seems they have to stick with Rafa Benitez because it would cost too much to pay him off.

I used to quite like Liverpool.

Bill Shankly was a character, Bob Paisley was a good man. And some of their best players seem to have a fondness for Chelsea - Alan Hansen and Kenny Dalglish usually have a good word to say for us, although that maybe because the Scousers can no longer compete with the Mancs.

But any residual respect has long gone because of their fans.

Talk about history...

These are the fans who literally got away with murder at the Heysel Stadium in 1985, and who two years ago went close to creating another Hillsborough tragedy in Athens.

These are the fans who scream to high heaven about Justice for Michael Shields but don't lift a finger to bring the true culprit to book. Evidently the Rule of Law only applies to other people.

To listen to them you'd think no one else had any 'history', particularly Chelsea.

Yet Liverpool's history isn't that glorious.

They were set up after a rent dispute with Everton, who originally played at Anfield. Initially the new club tried to call themselves Everton Athletic - they only became Liverpool when the FA refused to register the name.

For all the talk of their great fans, Liverpool's average crowd over the years is just 2,000 more than Chelsea's - and their biggest crowd, 61,905 back in 1952, is precisely 21,000 less than Chelsea's highest and puts them down at Number 18 in the all-time list.

'We never bought success' they claim, which is strange because the club owes its success almost entirely to the Moores family, best known for setting up the Littlewoods Organisation, once the largest privately-owned company in Britain.

Sir John Moores started off in gambling - Manchester born, he began by selling pools coupons outside Old Trafford in the 1920s - and later moved into the mail order and retail business.

In 1961 Moores and his family took control of Everton, and he started off by sacking their manager John Carey as the two men were in a taxi on the way to a meeting of the Football League in London.

But being a man who made his fortune from the pools, Moores decided to hedge his bets and also invested in Liverpool - which was how his nephew David, already club chairman, came to acquire a controlling stake after Sir John died in 1993.

As the scousers pet football expert Dr Rogan Taylor admits:

'Liverpool fans have a lot to be grateful for from him. He is passionate about the club and has put a lot of money into the team.'

As for that great European history, they have indeed won it five times, as they never cease to remind us: it being the Cup with Big Ears.

Yet Liverpool only won their first European trophy, the UEFA Cup, in 1973 - two years after Chelsea beat Real Madrid in Athens.

And when Chelsea became the first English club to qualify for the European Cup, back in 1955, Liverpool finished in eleventh place.

That's eleventh place in Division Two.

Avanti!

Oh dear.

[boldie]

Nobody else has only lost 2 games and not won the title. It isn't an achievement to be able to do so. What the stat is saying is basically if you only lose 2 games you should win the title. "We only lost 2 games and still managed not to win the title - amazing!"

You are right it's not an achievement, but it is a measure of how far we have come in the league (as far as you can measure success without a trophy) and to be honest it's not a bad measure. All he's saying is it's a good sign of progress and Rafa still got the negative spin on this vast league improvement. Had this been any other manager bar Chelsea's it'd be deemed amazing! Rafa does it and it's met with "still not achieved much in the league" "underperormed" etc etc. Ridiculous.

To be fair though, they only did it one season and they now look unable to repeat it. Every team has an outstanding season sometimes. Everton finished 4th in 2005, that doesn't mean they have carried that through though (Moyes is still dining out on that one IMO). A Top 4 finish should be standard for Liverpool. (Maybe a top5 should be standard in the future when Man City pull their finger out and start performing like they should be able to with a team like theirs)

OK Chelsea had tonnes more money to spend but they stay at the top consistently. ManU have spent quite a few pennies (and Ferguson has been there forever) and stay at the top consistently. Liverpool had one great season in the league, if they were to repeat that feat this year (or even next season taking into account all the injuries they've had) then you could say there was improvement.

Under Benitez you finished, 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th and second. The years before him you finished; (starting from '96) 4th, 3rd, 7th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 5th.

Rafa joined in 2004, he immediately had a wonderful season and I reckon that saved him. Is he a bad manager? No, of course not. Is he as good as you think he is? Maybe, but he needs more time to prove it first IMO.

[boldie]

If it's not a witch hunt I dont know what is!

Every year the tabloids pick on a manager of a big team. First they loved Mourinho and then they hated him. It was Wenger for a while as well.

Why would you be soo upset about it being Benitez for a while? Liverpool aren't performing well at the moment, Benitez hasn't always had a great relationship with the media and the tabloids love nothing more than stirring up trouble.
It'll die down soon enough....it's your owners you have to worry about..not the witchhunt against Benitez.

[The Baron]

Nobody else has only lost 2 games and not won the title. It isn't an achievement to be able to do so. What the stat is saying is basically if you only lose 2 games you should win the title. "We only lost 2 games and still managed not to win the title - amazing!"

You are right it's not an achievement, but it is a measure of how far we have come in the league (as far as you can measure success without a trophy) and to be honest it's not a bad measure. All he's saying is it's a good sign of progress and Rafa still got the negative spin on this vast league improvement. Had this been any other manager bar Chelsea's it'd be deemed amazing! Rafa does it and it's met with "still not achieved much in the league" "underperormed" etc etc. Ridiculous.

To be fair though, they only did it one season and they now look unable to repeat it. Every team has an outstanding season sometimes. Everton finished 4th in 2005, that doesn't mean they have carried that through though (Moyes is still dining out on that one IMO). A Top 4 finish should be standard for Liverpool. (Maybe a top5 should be standard in the future when Man City pull their finger out and start performing like they should be able to with a team like theirs)

OK Chelsea had tonnes more money to spend but they stay at the top consistently. ManU have spent quite a few pennies (and Ferguson has been there forever) and stay at the top consistently. Liverpool had one great season in the league, if they were to repeat that feat this year (or even next season taking into account all the injuries they've had) then you could say there was improvement.

Under Benitez you finished, 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 4th and second. The years before him you finished; (starting from '96) 4th, 3rd, 7th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 5th.

Rafa joined in 2004, he immediately had a wonderful season and I reckon that saved him. Is he a bad manager? No, of course not. Is he as good as you think he is? Maybe, but he needs more time to prove it first IMO.

Sorry to support Everton but..... Moyes isn't still dining out on that - he's finished in the top 6 for 3 years running - two of which with the smallest squad in the whole league! You are right about looking like we are unable to repeat it though - I hope next season proves that to be incorrect but I cannot argue this point in our current circumstances.

With the league finishes you are not taking into account the outrageously different landscape of the EPL. Since 2005 it's been the best league in the world and since 2007 it's been there by a distance with the best managers generally involved at higher spending clubs. Finishing second with the money spent and established sides around him with their groundwork already in place is a large improvement. More importantly it's the points per game ratio improvement in this changed landscape that shows the improvement the most. Do you think Chelsea are a better side this season? I dont. I think they have key players fit whilst the other three of the top 4 have gotten weaker. It's all relative imo.

Rafa joined in 2004, he immediately had a wonderful season and I reckon that saved him. Is he a bad manager? No, of course not. Is he as good as you think he is? Maybe, but he needs more time to prove it first IMO.

Couldn't agree more. I cannot be sure how good Rafa is. I just have thoughts/opinions but I am certain that the magic word in a recession "expectation", is what is making his life harder.

[The Baron]

If it's not a witch hunt I dont know what is!

Every year the tabloids pick on a manager of a big team. First they loved Mourinho and then they hated him. It was Wenger for a while as well.

Why would you be soo upset about it being Benitez for a while? Liverpool aren't performing well at the moment, Benitez hasn't always had a great relationship with the media and the tabloids love nothing more than stirring up trouble.
It'll die down soon enough....it's your owners you have to worry about..not the witchhunt against Benitez.

True and again, this season it's mostly deserved admittedly. He's made some odd choices.

Agree about G&T - they must go. Although they seem to be cottoning on in more recent times.

[boldie]

If it's not a witch hunt I dont know what is!

Every year the tabloids pick on a manager of a big team. First they loved Mourinho and then they hated him. It was Wenger for a while as well.

Why would you be soo upset about it being Benitez for a while? Liverpool aren't performing well at the moment, Benitez hasn't always had a great relationship with the media and the tabloids love nothing more than stirring up trouble.
It'll die down soon enough....it's your owners you have to worry about..not the witchhunt against Benitez.

True and again, this season it's mostly deserved admittedly. He's made some odd choices.

Agree about G&T - they must go. Although they seem to be cottoning on in more recent times.

I hope so mate..they scare the living shit out of me. I hope someone like Abramovich steps in but there's noone that can afford to buy a club like Liverpool at the moment. I'm guessing that works in your favour with those two though..if they felt they could get a half decent amount from someone for the club they would probably be pulling some weird shit trying to flog it. (Like sacking Rafa and bringing in some new hot shot unproven coach who will look better on the PR leaflet)

[The Baron]

With the league finishes you are not taking into account the outrageously different landscape of the EPL. Since 2005 it's been the best league in the world and since 2007 it's been there by a distance with the best managers generally involved at higher spending clubs. Finishing second with the money spent and established sides around him with their groundwork already in place is a large improvement. More importantly it's the points per game ratio improvement in this changed landscape that shows the improvement the most. Do you think Chelsea are a better side this season? I dont. I think they have key players fit whilst the other three of the top 4 have gotten weaker. It's all relative imo.

I've not explained this well really.

I guess what I'm saying is we're spending less relatively year on year as a % of the EPL's total spend, but finishing higher and higher up the table as a result, with more points per game and more importantly (when it comes to saying Benitez is a good manager) more points per pound than those around us.

I guess you have to put this season down to a bad summer in the market (major midfield influence gone - primary midfield target missed) as you could put our league form down to the same issue in 2006-2007 when the signings just didn't work really (Champions League final aside we were poo in the league).

We also miss some serious height now that Crouch, Hyypia, Sissoko etc have all gone. Also Barry would have been a great signing for us had we gotten him.