The God Delusion - by Richard Dawkins

[The Baron]

I believe in a God... I choose to do this via Catholicism...

All religions generally believe in the same thing.. A grand architect of the universe....And we practice it via different principles and methods.....

If you were to have a percentage of the people in the world who believe in some form of higher being, I wonder what the percentage would be?? I will guess between 80-90....

Excellent thread,


The problem I have is with people who claim to 'choose' their faith.  Flying Pig, I can guarantee you that if you were born in a non-catholic country - your belief in 'God' would be through the belief system that you were born into, unless of course at some point you would decide to convert into catholicism that your clam of 'choice' would be more valid.

This in itself can be an argument that one's belief in 'God' and the interpretation of the 'God' is pretty arbitrary.  Like language is arbitrary but its meaning not so.

Basically depending where you are born and into what culture will determine your beliefs. There is nothing wrong if one is comfortable and happy in being catholic/muslim/jewish and so on, but i object to saying that the choice is completely free.

Good post.

I really recommend this as reading if this thread has interested you as Dawkins covers 90% of what has been brought up as points here by either side.

I have now finished the book and still feel his "style" is off putting. There is no room to manouvre on his part.

Very good book though, and a fascinating way of seeing things.

[kinboshi]

Big fan of his work, and of that of Bertrand Russell. 

I honestly feel that this book should be made part of the religious studies curriculum and made a mandatory book to study.  Of course, this will most probably never be the case.

We all recognise the problem of religious fundamentalists, but I also have an issue with religious moderatism as well.  It's a breeding ground for the perpetuation of outdated traditions and 'cultural memes' that are essentially divisive and discriminatory.

You're born in Indonesia - you're most likely to be brought up as a Muslim.  If you're born in Ireland - probably a Catholic.  Israel - a Jew.  What does this tell you?  That religion is fairly arbitrary. 

However, this doesn't produce a benign state of multi-cultural bliss.  It divides, it breeds hatred and differences where none exist.  A Jewish child might be brought up to hate Muslims, and a Muslim child to hate Jews.  That's actually fundamental to these religions who all boast of the 'one true god'.  The idea of living alongside other religions and believers of other faiths is a relatively new and liberal attitude - not one fostered by religion.  Dawkins actually mentions the original meaning of 'Love thy neighbour', and it wasn't intended to mean the same as it's widely accepted now (you only have to look at the vengeful wrath of the jealous god in the bible to see that neighbour meant exactly that, those who were from the same place, who therefore had the same religious beliefs - the others were there to be destroyed.). 

There's the long-standing joke that two men from Northern Ireland are talking, and one asks the other what his religion is.  He replies that he's an atheist.  The other asks, "OK - but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?"  It would be funny if it was only a joke and that no one had ever been persecuted, killed, discriminated against, etc., on the grounds of the religion that was 'forced' upon them by their families.

On top of that, moderate religion legitimises and provides a fertile breeding ground for the more radical thinkers who abuse their power to brainwash the confused and easily manipulated into carrying out 'acts on behalf of their religion'.

What's the difference between a cult and a mainstream religion?  I can't see any difference myself.

[The Baron]

Dawkins actually mentions the original meaning of 'Love thy neighbour', and it wasn't intended to mean the same as it's widely accepted now (you only have to look at the vengeful wrath of the jealous god in the bible to see that neighbour meant exactly that, those who were from the same place, who therefore had the same religious beliefs - the others were there to be destroyed.)

This bit I wasn't too sure of. There is a huge difference between the way God is portayed in the different testaments. "Love thy neighbour" wasn't said in the Old Testament.

As for religious moderates, I don't really see the problem. It's easy enough to list a lot of places that have suffered due to religious diversity. But you could similarly argue that many places live in religious harmony.

You could also mention dozens of conflicts/massacres that have started because of race differences, land issues or purely out of something primal like fear or revenge. Rwanda is a good example. If the tribes in Rwanda were Jewish and Muslim of course we could rest easy knowing religion was the cause. I don't buy religion as the cause in half of the examples used by the non-religious to help their arguments.

As long as the believers remain moderate in their views what's the problem?

[AndrewT]

You could also mention dozens of conflicts/massacres that have started because of race differences, land issues or purely out of something primal like fear or revenge. Rwanda is a good example. If the tribes in Rwanda were Jewish and Muslim of course we could rest easy knowing religion was the cause. I don't buy religion as the cause in half of the examples used by the non-religious to help their arguments.

Yes, people are liable to start wars with people they view as different. So why introduce another, arbitrary, difference between groups and give them something else to kill each other about?

As long as the believers remain moderate in their views what's the problem?

Because you can't guarantee they will all remain moderate. And it only needs a tiny minority of radicals to cause a lot of trouble.

[kinboshi]

Dawkins actually mentions the original meaning of 'Love thy neighbour', and it wasn't intended to mean the same as it's widely accepted now (you only have to look at the vengeful wrath of the jealous god in the bible to see that neighbour meant exactly that, those who were from the same place, who therefore had the same religious beliefs - the others were there to be destroyed.)

This bit I wasn't too sure of. There is a huge difference between the way God is portayed in the different testaments. "Love thy neighbour" wasn't said in the Old Testament.

It was, in Leviticus.

[The Baron]

Dawkins actually mentions the original meaning of 'Love thy neighbour', and it wasn't intended to mean the same as it's widely accepted now (you only have to look at the vengeful wrath of the jealous god in the bible to see that neighbour meant exactly that, those who were from the same place, who therefore had the same religious beliefs - the others were there to be destroyed.)

This bit I wasn't too sure of. There is a huge difference between the way God is portayed in the different testaments. "Love thy neighbour" wasn't said in the Old Testament.

It was, in Leviticus.

I see - sorry though you were quoting hey zeus!

[The Baron]

Yes, people are liable to start wars with people they view as different. So why introduce another, arbitrary, difference between groups and give them something else to kill each other about?

By this school of thought should we have seperate countries? Why have another arbitrary difference between groups that can give them something to kill each other over?

Some people, right or wrongly, see religion as part of their identity. I will always argue (except in extreme cases) that you cannot take that away from them.

Because you can't guarantee they will all remain moderate. And it only needs a tiny minority of radicals to cause a lot of trouble.

You can't guarantee anyone will remain moderate - religious or not. Again, for me anyway, it's too easy and conveniant to just blame religion on the world's issues.

[Maddog]

What's the difference between a cult and a mainstream religion?  I can't see any difference myself.

I think one of the main differences is that you have to pay to be in a cult.

[AndrewT]

Yes, people are liable to start wars with people they view as different. So why introduce another, arbitrary, difference between groups and give them something else to kill each other about?

By this school of thought should we have seperate countries? Why have another arbitrary difference between groups that can give them something to kill each other over?

In the fullness of time, hopefully not. Europe used to be regularly ravaged by war but now, as national borders have come down, and we realise our similarities are greater than our differences, we've stopped killing each other.

[matt674]

Not read the whole thread - the word "god" in the title kind of stopped me from opening it until now. So would you recommend the book to someone who is religious but can't see things from an atheists prospective?

Babymonkeyboy's mum wants to get him christened and i have no objection, she wants me to be at the service but then she starts getting all funny when i say that i will be at the church for his christening but that i wont take part in the service. She's also asked me to pick someone to be his godfather and again started being funny with me when i said that i couldn't.

She tells me that she's asked her sister to be babymonkey's godmother and she's accepted despite the fact that she's an atheist so why couldn't i?!?!?!?! (it probably wasn't a good idea to laugh in disbelief at this point but i did which probably didn't help the situation! )

[kinboshi]

Not read the whole thread - the word "god" in the title kind of stopped me from opening it until now. So would you recommend the book to someone who is religious but can't see things from an atheists prospective?

Babymonkeyboy's mum wants to get him christened and i have no objection, she wants me to be at the service but then she starts getting all funny when i say that i will be at the church for his christening but that i wont take part in the service. She's also asked me to pick someone to be his godfather and again started being funny with me when i said that i couldn't.

She tells me that she's asked her sister to be babymonkey's godmother and she's accepted despite the fact that she's an atheist so why couldn't i?!?!?!?! (it probably wasn't a good idea to laugh in disbelief at this point but i did which probably didn't help the situation! )

Interesting situation.  Me and the missus have had similar discussions.  She wants our children (when we have any) to be christened - I don't.  She isn't religious, but doesn't see the harm in it and she was christened and it didn't do her any harm.  I don't really see that as a reason for inflicting a label on our child - and like Matt, I certainly couldn't stand up there and say that I promise to bring the child up as a christian, etc.  (Well, I could stand there and lie - it wouldn't be the first time, I just don't see the point though).

It's amazing the hold that christian rituals and the 'fear of god' that is instilled in many people in this country.  They aren't believers, but 'just in case' they want to abide by the church's strange rules and customs. 

I went to a christening recently, it was a good friend of mine and he's not really religious, but he's following the traditions within his family I guess.  The service was particularly interesting, and as someone who was made to go to church when I was young, it (now as an adult) amazes me to see and hear people worshipping and singing in strange verses to a god who seems to demand constant praise.  The sermon was the highlight, where the vicar (who was very pleasant and seemed like a decent fella) told the congregation that the world of the bible was the word of god - and it's not for us to decide which parts to ignore and which to adhere to.  I wanted to stand up and challenge him on some passages, but managed to control my tourettes. Most amusingly, seated to my right was a fella in a dog collar.  He passed me a hymn book when it was obvious I wasn't joining in - and I told him I'd rather not. 

As for the book, I'd recommend it to all.  Religious, atheist, undecided.  Very easy to read (I think The Baron would agree with this even though he's not the biggest fan of Dawkins' writing style), and only £5 in paperback now in the local supermarket.

[AdamM]

neither of my kids are christened and my wife is happy with that too thank god. 
I tell my seven year old that god is made up but santa is real. presents are proof and, until there's evidence to the contrary santa is a good theory.
My daughter loves to sing and when I catch her singing a song she's picked up at school, thanking jesus for her house or the food on her table I tell her she wants to be praising me as it's me providing those things. now, go and get daddy a beer from the fridge

[kinboshi]

neither of my kids are christened and my wife is happy with that too thank god. 
I tell my seven year old that god is made up but santa is real. presents are proof and, until there's evidence to the contrary santa is a good theory.
My daughter loves to sing and when I catch her singing a song she's picked up at school, thanking jesus for her house or the food on her table I tell her she wants to be praising me as it's me providing those things. now, go and get daddy a beer from the fridge

POTW!

[AndrewT]

neither of my kids are christened and my wife is happy with that too thank god. 
I tell my seven year old that god is made up but santa is real. presents are proof and, until there's evidence to the contrary santa is a good theory.
My daughter loves to sing and when I catch her singing a song she's picked up at school, thanking jesus for her house or the food on her table I tell her she wants to be praising me as it's me providing those things. now, go and get daddy a beer from the fridge

See, that's the number one reason for having children - beer slaves.

[RED-DOG]

neither of my kids are christened and my wife is happy with that too thank god. 
I tell my seven year old that god is made up but santa is real. presents are proof and, until there's evidence to the contrary santa is a good theory.
My daughter loves to sing and when I catch her singing a song she's picked up at school, thanking jesus for her house or the food on her table I tell her she wants to be praising me as it's me providing those things. now, go and get daddy a beer from the fridge

When I was a little boy, I asked my dad if god existed and he refused to tell me. He knew that whatever he said would be what I would believe to be true.

He said "Make your own mind up first, and then we'll discuss it."