British and Christian and Proud

[ifm]

But what did any of it have to do with football

some people think Henrik Larsson is the Son of God

I did when he scored against V**la

[Muahahahaha]

Did the Church invent the atomic bomb?

No.  But it didn't invent treatments for cancer, antibiotics, transplant operations, heart by-pass surgery, the contraceptive pill, etc.  Science asks the questions and tries to find answers.  Religion blocks and stifles questioning, advancement and a greater understanding.

Also, AIDS in Africa has killed far more people than the atomic bomb.  Millions of people could have been saved from suffering and death through something as simple as a condom.  Unfortunately, it's not science that is the problem there.  Now I think you're beginning to understand the argument.  Well done.  Life isn't simple.  There are no simple answers and no quick fixes.  If you don't find any answers in religion, then stay away.  But many people do find good in religion.  Just because there are some people who do bad under the name of their god, it doesn't mean to say that we should do away with the whole institution.  You obviously have had a bad experience with the church.  Maybe you need to talk privately with people that can help you more than I can.  But for you to condemn millions of people beliefs, just because you personally see no benefit in it, seems to me to be a tad immature, and self righteous.  My religion doesn't stifle questioning, it embraces it.  I realise that I suffer through misunderstanding others.  TBH from a personal viewpoint I find your views offensive.  But that doesn't mean that I'm right, and you're wrong.  But I think that you are asking for me to accept that I'm wrong, and you are right.  And to me that is also wrong.  ( ps rereading this I just noticed the bit of sarcasm I put in just now - I thought I'd leave it in there just so you can see that I think bigoted views can be attributable to both sides of the argument.  I also know I should be strong enough to turn the other cheek more than I do.  But, hey, we're none of us perfect )

I had a science lesson when I was at school.  We were shown a tv program where a scientist tried to explain about the beginning of the universe ( Big Bang, or whatever the theory was called at the time - it was a very long time ago now )  He went on to say that science had helped him become a Christian.  He could probe further and further back explaining where we came from, but at some point there has to be a ' But what happened before that?' question that cannot be answered.  That's where he, personally, put God.  It was 30 odd years ago I saw that, but I've yet to see a rational theory that counters that in my mind. Like I said earlier, many modern Christians dont use words that are thousands of years old to explain exactly how we should live life to the letter in the modern world.  I think we should try to use our own brains and hearts as well.

If god is some complex being that created the universe (which I guess is what you're saying), Nope, not saying that at all.  I'm just saying science isn't the be all & end all.  at some point we have to give ourselves up to a faith in something.  You have a faith in science.  I have a faith in science and god and man working together.  Horses for courses.
then where did he come from?  If something as wonderful and amazing as the universe needs a creator, then this someone as wonderful and amazing as the god who created it would also need to come from somewhere.  You haven't answered any question here - you've just moved the goalposts.  It isn't a rational theory at all - it's merely saying "I don't know the answer, therefore it must be something supernatural."  The same for those who argue against evolution - they often don't understand it at all.  I understand a little, there's no need to patronise me.  I don't want life to be a rational theory.  I think you want simple answers to complex questions.  I suggest that life can be better lived enjoying what we already have, rather than trying to seek something that may not be there.  Why do we need 'the answer' ?  I don't care how the world began.  I see the beauty of god in the flowers in the fields, and in the eyes of a young baby.  That'll do for me, thank you very much.  I'm not arguing against atheism, evolution or anything.  You hang on to what feels good to you.  I believe in science, to a point.  From there I claim the freedom to take my beliefs in the direction that I choose.

[Bongo]

You can say ... that if men hadn't laid down with men it wouldn't have happened either??

I don't think you can say that.

[Muahahahaha]

One of the advantages of having religious beliefs is that one finds it less and less necessary to tell other people what they should, or shouldn't be doing. 

Unless you're the Catholic Church? 

I'm not.  I would, personally hate being a Catholic, but for those who are, and get something out of it, good luck to them.  Just because I believe in faith, that doesn't mean that I don't believe in education.  If we tell everybody what a religion stands for, they can make a choice about whether they should follow it.

[Muahahahaha]

and assuming you're not literal creationists, if we are the pinacle of a divine plan how come the planet has been here 4 billion years and it took til a few million years for us to arrive?

Who said we are the pinacle of a devine plan.  There's always room for improvement.

Assuming the planet has been here for 4 billion years.  Compare that to growing a flower.  One needs to spend hours making the soil ready to plant the seed, then one needs to plant the seed and water it until the flower grows.  Once the flower has grown and the blossom has opened, it will only keep it's beauty for a few days, when it will wither and die.  Is the result worth all the effort ?  Ask a gardener.

If there is a god, maybe 4 billion years to him is the same as 3 months to me.  Hopefully when mankind withers and dies he'll think we created enough beauty to be worth his effort.

Just another way of looking at it.  Don't treat it as a literal analogy, please.

[kinboshi]

Did the Church invent the atomic bomb?

No.  But it didn't invent treatments for cancer, antibiotics, transplant operations, heart by-pass surgery, the contraceptive pill, etc.  Science asks the questions and tries to find answers.  Religion blocks and stifles questioning, advancement and a greater understanding.

Also, AIDS in Africa has killed far more people than the atomic bomb.  Millions of people could have been saved from suffering and death through something as simple as a condom.  Unfortunately, it's not science that is the problem there.  Now I think you're beginning to understand the argument.  Well done.  Life isn't simple.  There are no simple answers and no quick fixes.  If you don't find any answers in religion, then stay away.  But many people do find good in religion.  Just because there are some people who do bad under the name of their god, it doesn't mean to say that we should do away with the whole institution.  You obviously have had a bad experience with the church.  Maybe you need to talk privately with people that can help you more than I can.  But for you to condemn millions of people beliefs, just because you personally see no benefit in it, seems to me to be a tad immature, and self righteous.  My religion doesn't stifle questioning, it embraces it.  I realise that I suffer through misunderstanding others.  TBH from a personal viewpoint I find your views offensive.  But that doesn't mean that I'm right, and you're wrong.  But I think that you are asking for me to accept that I'm wrong, and you are right.  And to me that is also wrong.  ( ps rereading this I just noticed the bit of sarcasm I put in just now - I thought I'd leave it in there just so you can see that I think bigoted views can be attributable to both sides of the argument.  I also know I should be strong enough to turn the other cheek more than I do.  But, hey, we're none of us perfect )

I had a science lesson when I was at school.  We were shown a tv program where a scientist tried to explain about the beginning of the universe ( Big Bang, or whatever the theory was called at the time - it was a very long time ago now )  He went on to say that science had helped him become a Christian.  He could probe further and further back explaining where we came from, but at some point there has to be a ' But what happened before that?' question that cannot be answered.  That's where he, personally, put God.  It was 30 odd years ago I saw that, but I've yet to see a rational theory that counters that in my mind. Like I said earlier, many modern Christians dont use words that are thousands of years old to explain exactly how we should live life to the letter in the modern world.  I think we should try to use our own brains and hearts as well.

If god is some complex being that created the universe (which I guess is what you're saying), Nope, not saying that at all.  I'm just saying science isn't the be all & end all.  at some point we have to give ourselves up to a faith in something.  You have a faith in science.  I have a faith in science and god and man working together.  Horses for courses.
then where did he come from?  If something as wonderful and amazing as the universe needs a creator, then this someone as wonderful and amazing as the god who created it would also need to come from somewhere.  You haven't answered any question here - you've just moved the goalposts.  It isn't a rational theory at all - it's merely saying "I don't know the answer, therefore it must be something supernatural."  The same for those who argue against evolution - they often don't understand it at all.  I understand a little, there's no need to patronise me.  I don't want life to be a rational theory.  I think you want simple answers to complex questions.  I suggest that life can be better lived enjoying what we already have, rather than trying to seek something that may not be there.  Why do we need 'the answer' ?  I don't care how the world began.  I see the beauty of god in the flowers in the fields, and in the eyes of a young baby.  That'll do for me, thank you very much.  I'm not arguing against atheism, evolution or anything.  You hang on to what feels good to you.  I believe in science, to a point.  From there I claim the freedom to take my beliefs in the direction that I choose.

You're talking about beliefs - that's fine.  Every individual has the right to believe in whatever they choose.  It's religion I was talking about.  Something very different.

[Teacake]

Did the Church invent the atomic bomb?

No.  But it didn't invent treatments for cancer, antibiotics, transplant operations, heart by-pass surgery, the contraceptive pill, etc.  Science asks the questions and tries to find answers.  Religion blocks and stifles questioning, advancement and a greater understanding.

Also, AIDS in Africa has killed far more people than the atomic bomb.  Millions of people could have been saved from suffering and death through something as simple as a condom.  Unfortunately, it's not science that is the problem there.

I had a science lesson when I was at school.  We were shown a tv program where a scientist tried to explain about the beginning of the universe ( Big Bang, or whatever the theory was called at the time - it was a very long time ago now )  He went on to say that science had helped him become a Christian.  He could probe further and further back explaining where we came from, but at some point there has to be a ' But what happened before that?' question that cannot be answered.  That's where he, personally, put God.  It was 30 odd years ago I saw that, but I've yet to see a rational theory that counters that in my mind. Like I said earlier, many modern Christians dont use words that are thousands of years old to explain exactly how we should live life to the letter in the modern world.  I think we should try to use our own brains and hearts as well.

If god is some complex being that created the universe (which I guess is what you're saying), then where did he come from?  If something as wonderful and amazing as the universe needs a creator, then this someone as wonderful and amazing as the god who created it would also need to come from somewhere.  You haven't answered any question here - you've just moved the goalposts.  It isn't a rational theory at all - it's merely saying "I don't know the answer, therefore it must be something supernatural."  The same for those who argue against evolution - they often don't understand it at all. 

Blaming the Catholic Church for the huge numbers who are dying of AIDS in Africa is naive in the extreme. If you think Africans are not using condoms because the Catholic Church tells them to then why did AIDS spread so quickly when the same Catholic Church preaches against sex outside marriage? 

[kinboshi]

Did the Church invent the atomic bomb?

No.  But it didn't invent treatments for cancer, antibiotics, transplant operations, heart by-pass surgery, the contraceptive pill, etc.  Science asks the questions and tries to find answers.  Religion blocks and stifles questioning, advancement and a greater understanding.

Also, AIDS in Africa has killed far more people than the atomic bomb.  Millions of people could have been saved from suffering and death through something as simple as a condom.  Unfortunately, it's not science that is the problem there.

I had a science lesson when I was at school.  We were shown a tv program where a scientist tried to explain about the beginning of the universe ( Big Bang, or whatever the theory was called at the time - it was a very long time ago now )  He went on to say that science had helped him become a Christian.  He could probe further and further back explaining where we came from, but at some point there has to be a ' But what happened before that?' question that cannot be answered.  That's where he, personally, put God.  It was 30 odd years ago I saw that, but I've yet to see a rational theory that counters that in my mind. Like I said earlier, many modern Christians dont use words that are thousands of years old to explain exactly how we should live life to the letter in the modern world.  I think we should try to use our own brains and hearts as well.

If god is some complex being that created the universe (which I guess is what you're saying), then where did he come from?  If something as wonderful and amazing as the universe needs a creator, then this someone as wonderful and amazing as the god who created it would also need to come from somewhere.  You haven't answered any question here - you've just moved the goalposts.  It isn't a rational theory at all - it's merely saying "I don't know the answer, therefore it must be something supernatural."  The same for those who argue against evolution - they often don't understand it at all. 

Blaming the Catholic Church for the huge numbers who are dying of AIDS in Africa is naive in the extreme. If you think Africans are not using condoms because the Catholic Church tells them to then why did AIDS spread so quickly when the same Catholic Church preaches against sex outside marriage? 

Poverty and the church's determination to prevent the easy access to condoms are definitely massive contributors to the horrific AIDS issue in Africa. 

I'm not saying people aren't using condoms because they're told not to.  I'm saying that the distribution and easy access to condoms and improved sexual health education would dramatically improve the situation.  Why aren't these happening? 

[Muahahahaha]

God can do anything. 
God made the earth. 
Then god made night and day. 
Then a few days later god made the sun and the other stars. 
Then God made man. 
God gave man free will. 
Man sinned. 
God got angry. 
God punished man with 'original sin'. 
God persecutes man for thousands of years. 
God decides to save man by making himself into a human and appearing on earth. 
God then gets his human form killed so that he can please himself and free man from original sin. 
God then helps his human form to rise from the dead and appear to a few of his mates. 
God then makes his human form ascend (not sure where to though). 
God then wants all of mankind to obey what was written about this episode and can't be bothered to show himself to make it any more obvious to the billions who have been born since, instead we're meant to have faith.

Your interpretation of god, and mine, are totally different.   Years ago men wanted other men to be obedient, so this is what we understand that they preached.  As times change the interpretation of ancient words can change with them.  I don't feel the need to be obedient to anyone except myself.  If I live my life in the best interpretation of those words that I can muster, I hope I'll do more good than I do bad, and I hope he'll see it that way as well.

[AdamM]

in some parts of africa people have been told by the catholic church that comdoms CAUSE AIDs

[kinboshi]

God can do anything. 
God made the earth. 
Then god made night and day. 
Then a few days later god made the sun and the other stars. 
Then God made man. 
God gave man free will. 
Man sinned. 
God got angry. 
God punished man with 'original sin'. 
God persecutes man for thousands of years. 
God decides to save man by making himself into a human and appearing on earth. 
God then gets his human form killed so that he can please himself and free man from original sin. 
God then helps his human form to rise from the dead and appear to a few of his mates. 
God then makes his human form ascend (not sure where to though). 
God then wants all of mankind to obey what was written about this episode and can't be bothered to show himself to make it any more obvious to the billions who have been born since, instead we're meant to have faith.

Your interpretation of god, and mine, are totally different.   Years ago men wanted other men to be obedient, so this is what we understand that they preached.  As times change the interpretation of ancient words can change with them.  I don't feel the need to be obedient to anyone except myself.  If I live my life in the best interpretation of those words that I can muster, I hope I'll do more good than I do bad, and I hope he'll see it that way as well.

Again, I have no problem at all with you believing in god or whatever.  It's religion that is the problem (as far as I'm concerned).  There are still many, many people who assert that the words in the bible are god's words and must be taken literally.  Same for many other religions and their holy scripts.

If you want to believe in god or gods - absolutely, 100% fine.  I don't myself, but that's my choice and your choice.  I'm sure on a morality standing we probably agree on 99.99% of issues. 

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

[bolt pp]

 

[Muahahahaha]

and assuming you're not literal creationists, if we are the pinacle of a divine plan how come the planet has been here 4 billion years and it took til a few million years for us to arrive?

god was trying out various ideas, giraffes n stuff

ps. there was no time before the Big Bang. It's not a time or space where the universe popped out from, its time/space itself starting. Meaningless to talk of God being what existed before then. How could God have been, or acted, before then? He would exist in this meaningless, timeless void. Ok, how can you prove that ?  Yes I admit to being simple, but there is no way that you can 'know' there was nothing , anymore than I can.  I might well be wrong.  But what kind of human being are you to INSIST that everyone believes you and your science.  Over history, science has been proved wrong by it's own exponents time after time.  How can you be so confidant that this time you are right and that in another 500 years this won't all be seen as another daft idea along with the earth being flat.  Just because this is the best guess we can make today, I suggest that it takes a pretty closed mind to say this is undeniable fact.  Let's look at it in another couple of centuries and than see how it stands up.[/color]Religion is science for people that don't get stuff. Or is science just a new religion ?  People have faith in it because they can see.  This is similar to the miracles in the bible.  People needed to see, in order to believe.  Maybe having faith is better without needing proof all the time.  It's very time consuming finding proof.  Do you need to know why a rainbow forms to be able to look at it and admire it's beauty.

I repeat what I said before: people don't need the *truth* they need *answers*, people of all ages have been religious cos they always just wanted an answer. Never do you read of a religious group living in xxxx BC who went 'well, we were gonna worship this river god and then build a tower and smoke some horse droppings in his honour, but then we realised it may just be a whole crock of crap that one of us just made up' because the myth does its job: it fills in that answer.
Science is exactly the same, except that it brings on board repeatability and accountability, strangely lacking in mainstream religion.
I love it when people talk about 'reconciling science and religion' or the 'great science vs religion debate', as if they are on a par with each other. Maybe you should read up more about more religions before you make such catagoric statements.  If you think man's accountability to man isn't covered by religion, then I think you've missed something.

[ifm]

How do you know when your garden has AIDS?


































All the pansies die

[bolt pp]

I think the one thing that we all agree on is that god supports Liverpool, you keep posting in blue you're gonna piss him off