Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[tikay]

What are your thoughts on the news? Tremendous growth and big valuation.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/04/sky-m-a-skybet-idUKKCN0JI0HI20141204

In before its AmayaStars all over again. Petition for Thewy to be removed as Team pro etc.

Very good, very good. Might have to get on The Ambassador's case, too.

I'm afraid I have a bit of a disconnect on this whole inability for poker players to understand that businesses operate for one reason, & one reason only - to make money. That's the same whether it be a supermarket or a gaming site. They exist to make money. They don't exist, as such, to "care" for anyone, unless it better serves their purpose. 

In fact, it goes a step further. Any Company which makes the same profit as last year is deemed to be failing, even if that is a huge sum. So the treadmill requres - DEMANDS - that all Businesses make more money than last year. The resistance to that notion, or inability to grasp it in an unemotive way, just astonishes me.

I don't expect poker players to LIKE it, of course not. But I would have thought they'd understand how business works, whether we like it ot not. 

I equally don't understand, beyond your role as devil's advocate and voice of reason, how you don't get why people are mad. It's fine to say that this is business and blah blah blah. But that sort of entirely misses the point.

Well I'm glad you can see a Devil's Advocate is needed to such a lopsided debate, we learn nothing from a bunch of people shouting & hollering & describing Amaya & DN in such unpleasant terms. 

When did a debate where one side just decide to describe the other as idiots, scumbags, douches & the like ever help contribute to a balanced view of the whole scene?

Do we really think that poker players understand business better than successful Gaming Companies? I certainly don't, it's as unlikely as Mr Amaya being able to teach poker players how to play.

[tikay]

I don't expect poker players to LIKE it, of course not. But I would have thought they'd understand how business works, whether we like it or not. 

They do understand perfectly well.  They don't like it because old Stars had one objective - to have more people playing poker on their site this year than last year and that objective was aligned with the player's objectives.   

Amaya has entirely different objectives.

It's not a sin to try to earn more profit from a Business, that's the only reason they exist. Seems an odd reason to hate a Company - for doing what any Business is obliged to do, i.e., maximise & increase it's earnings. 

I don't expect players to like it, but all that vitriol is extraordinary. There really is an excess of hate around these days, despite life being better than it ever was, & by a long chalk. 

I have tried to argue the issues with stars new charges sensibly, but it just denegrates into Negreanu is a tosser and this players don't understand guff you put out.  There have been many sensible posts on 2 plus 2 for instance, but some don't seem to see them. 

Some players do understand the conflicts very well, but rather than address the issues it is much easier to point out some bloke who wants to throw the stars rep off a cliff because he lost $30.

It is this complete blindness from people on both sides to the sensible arguments on both sides which spoils the arguments.

There is a huge difference between charging as much as you can for a product and charging the amount that makes you the most money.  New Stars doesn't seem to grasp this and are stuck on pricing 101.  For instance in the hyper sats they very much seem to be taking the former approach even if it means the total take falls.  Whilst it is obvious that it isn't in the players interest, it isn't in the sites' interest either.  But far easier to talk about the cliff fella and make a few more sweeping generalisations. 

Will happily wait for the year on year growth to see who is right.

That's absolutely fair comment.

As to y-o-y growth, you presumably know very well that with start up costs profits will almost certainly take a dip next year, & in truth, if poker profits decline, I doubt it would not bother them too much, it's just a part of a greater whole now.

Over a long term view, say 5 years, it'll grow immensely imo. Poker's share of profits, & traffic, will almost certainly dip, of course, but that does not matter to Amaya as long as the whole business grows.

I don't expect poker players to like that, but I see no reason to insult them or their staff, when did throwing insults at people ever help anything? 

Any another thing, surely my Petula Clark story is worthy of comment? Or Keith Richards?

I can't have poker matters interfering with real life here I'm afraid. Petula Clark, 82 years old, good Lord. 

[AlunB]

What are your thoughts on the news? Tremendous growth and big valuation.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/04/sky-m-a-skybet-idUKKCN0JI0HI20141204

In before its AmayaStars all over again. Petition for Thewy to be removed as Team pro etc.

Very good, very good. Might have to get on The Ambassador's case, too.

I'm afraid I have a bit of a disconnect on this whole inability for poker players to understand that businesses operate for one reason, & one reason only - to make money. That's the same whether it be a supermarket or a gaming site. They exist to make money. They don't exist, as such, to "care" for anyone, unless it better serves their purpose. 

In fact, it goes a step further. Any Company which makes the same profit as last year is deemed to be failing, even if that is a huge sum. So the treadmill requres - DEMANDS - that all Businesses make more money than last year. The resistance to that notion, or inability to grasp it in an unemotive way, just astonishes me.

I don't expect poker players to LIKE it, of course not. But I would have thought they'd understand how business works, whether we like it ot not. 

I equally don't understand, beyond your role as devil's advocate and voice of reason, how you don't get why people are mad. It's fine to say that this is business and blah blah blah. But that sort of entirely misses the point.

Well I'm glad you can see a Devil's Advocate is needed to such a lopsided debate, we learn nothing from a bunch of people shouting & hollering & describing Amaya & DN in such unpleasant terms. 

When did a debate where one side just decide to describe the other as idiots, scumbags, douches & the like ever help contribute to a balanced view of the whole scene?

Do we really think that poker players understand business better than successful Gaming Companies? I certainly don't, it's as unlikely as Mr Amaya being able to teach poker players how to play.

Oh I don't disagree, but i think that your point of view becoming increasingly polarised as a reaction to this doesn't really move the debate on much either. Which is a shame, because you are far closer to the truth than they are.

But as a smart man, despite your protestations to the contrary, you must realise it's not as black and white as you are making out. It's a fundamental change in the company's ethos that people are reacting to. They bought into the ideal of poker being different and separate from gambling and now they are being told they were idiots for believing it. And players of certain games are being told we don't want you here any more.

For the record I have no issue with anything Stars have done. In fact many of the things they have done I support. But it's crazy to ignore the other side just because it contains a lot of idiots. It also contains a lot of very smart people with genuine concerns.

[doubleup]

One thing which hasn't been discussed, tikay, is whether the "city" (in a worldwide generic sense) actually understands gambling companies?  Is it too easy for them to be sold a line based on hope rather than sensible projection?

I always think back to the day that Party isolated its skin Empire Poker (that was populated with highly skilled rakeback pros).  Its share price fell quite dramatically, when anyone who knew what was going on in poker realised that the pros could either play each other or forfeit rakeback and join Party to access the recreationals. So win/win for Party.  Their share price should have risen not fallen.  

[AlunB]

Also on BBC 4 two nights ago was a lovely Show all about the Acoustic Guitar.

Just a history of the acoustic guitar & modern music really, but included a bunch of clips which wrere really great to see & hear.

Pick of the bunch was a 45 second clip of Keith Richards ad-libbing some stuff. How that man is alive amazes me, but all his bits seem to still be working.

Click to see full-size image.

Agreed. He's quite an amazing man in many many ways. I assume you have read his auto-biog? Great book.

[tikay]

One thing which hasn't been discussed, tikay, is whether the "city" (in a worldwide generic sense) actually understands gambling companies?  Is it too easy for them to be sold a line based on hope rather than sensible projection?

I always think back to the day that Party isolated its skin Empire Poker (that was populated with highly skilled rakeback pros).  Its share price fell quite dramatically, when anyone who knew what was going on in poker realised that the pros could either play each other or forfeit rakeback and join Party to access the recreationals. So win/win for Party.  Their share price should have risen not fallen.  

Historically, no, I don't think they do.

Gaming companies have traditionally existed on, or been sold at, very low PE ratios, as their earnings are viewed as volatile & unsafe. Mr Stein, back in the day, never helped in that respect.

On the contrary, "hot" Internet companies attract stratospheric ratings, often to disappoint, but occasionally to soar.

These days, the big Gaming Companies are in many ways much closer to Internet Companies than traditional B & M businesses. Logically, I suppose their PE ratios are low, & there are bargains to be had.

[AlunB]

One thing which hasn't been discussed, tikay, is whether the "city" (in a worldwide generic sense) actually understands gambling companies?  Is it too easy for them to be sold a line based on hope rather than sensible projection?

I always think back to the day that Party isolated its skin Empire Poker (that was populated with highly skilled rakeback pros).  Its share price fell quite dramatically, when anyone who knew what was going on in poker realised that the pros could either play each other or forfeit rakeback and join Party to access the recreationals. So win/win for Party.  Their share price should have risen not fallen.  

Was a wee bit more complex than that if memory serves. Weren't there lawsuits and all sorts going off back then?

[tikay]

Also on BBC 4 two nights ago was a lovely Show all about the Acoustic Guitar.

Just a history of the acoustic guitar & modern music really, but included a bunch of clips which wrere really great to see & hear.

Pick of the bunch was a 45 second clip of Keith Richards ad-libbing some stuff. How that man is alive amazes me, but all his bits seem to still be working.

Click to see full-size image.

Agreed. He's quite an amazing man in many many ways. I assume you have read his auto-biog? Great book.

A wonderful read. He is not, in some ways, the man he appears to be, he seems to have a real soft side, especially for his family.

Quite how he survived all that drug abuse, I've no idea.

Have you read Scar Tissue, by Anthony Kiedis? Stunning read, stunning. He was even worse than Richards, & he has survived, too. Highly recommended read, that.

[arbboy]

One thing which hasn't been discussed, tikay, is whether the "city" (in a worldwide generic sense) actually understands gambling companies?  Is it too easy for them to be sold a line based on hope rather than sensible projection?

I always think back to the day that Party isolated its skin Empire Poker (that was populated with highly skilled rakeback pros).  Its share price fell quite dramatically, when anyone who knew what was going on in poker realised that the pros could either play each other or forfeit rakeback and join Party to access the recreationals. So win/win for Party.  Their share price should have risen not fallen.  

Of course they don't understand gambling companies.  Betfair on floation was priced like it was in a totally different sector to gambling companies based on the idea that it wasn't a gambling company.  The share price halved in a matter of weeks but it should never have been the price it was to start with.

[tikay]

Two of my favourite Keith Richards photos - his Library, & his family. 

Click to see full-size image.

[doubleup]

One thing which hasn't been discussed, tikay, is whether the "city" (in a worldwide generic sense) actually understands gambling companies?  Is it too easy for them to be sold a line based on hope rather than sensible projection?

I always think back to the day that Party isolated its skin Empire Poker (that was populated with highly skilled rakeback pros).  Its share price fell quite dramatically, when anyone who knew what was going on in poker realised that the pros could either play each other or forfeit rakeback and join Party to access the recreationals. So win/win for Party.  Their share price should have risen not fallen.  

Was a wee bit more complex than that if memory serves. Weren't there lawsuits and all sorts going off back then?

There was a minor settlement later, but as Empire were breaching ToS it was never a huge risk imo.

The shares did recover fairly quickly iirc.

[AlunB]

Also on BBC 4 two nights ago was a lovely Show all about the Acoustic Guitar.

Just a history of the acoustic guitar & modern music really, but included a bunch of clips which wrere really great to see & hear.

Pick of the bunch was a 45 second clip of Keith Richards ad-libbing some stuff. How that man is alive amazes me, but all his bits seem to still be working.

Click to see full-size image.

Agreed. He's quite an amazing man in many many ways. I assume you have read his auto-biog? Great book.

A wonderful read. He is not, in some ways, the man he appears to be, he seems to have a real soft side, especially for his family.

Quite how he survived all that drug abuse, I've no idea.

Have you read Scar Tissue, by Anthony Kiedis? Stunning read, stunning. He was even worse than Richards, & he has survived, too. Highly recommended read, that.

No I haven't. As a natural contrarian I never liked the RCPs, but if it's that good I will give it a go.

Keith Richards is a hugely underrated guitarist IMO. And I really didn't fully appreciate how much of a driving force he was behind the Stones til I read the book.

[AlunB]

One thing which hasn't been discussed, tikay, is whether the "city" (in a worldwide generic sense) actually understands gambling companies?  Is it too easy for them to be sold a line based on hope rather than sensible projection?

I always think back to the day that Party isolated its skin Empire Poker (that was populated with highly skilled rakeback pros).  Its share price fell quite dramatically, when anyone who knew what was going on in poker realised that the pros could either play each other or forfeit rakeback and join Party to access the recreationals. So win/win for Party.  Their share price should have risen not fallen.  

Was a wee bit more complex than that if memory serves. Weren't there lawsuits and all sorts going off back then?

There was a minor settlement later, but as Empire were breaching ToS it was never a huge risk imo.

The shares did recover fairly quickly iirc.

Nothing the city likes more than to overreact to bad news

[Knottikay]

Thought you would be interested in this Tikay. I remember reading in this diary about your interest in the Great Train Robbery.....plus I believe your like trains and stuff......so this ticks both boxes.

http://www.crewechronicle.co.uk/news/crewe-south-cheshire-news/great-train-robbery-victims-jack-8215499

[Doobs]

What are your thoughts on the news? Tremendous growth and big valuation.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/04/sky-m-a-skybet-idUKKCN0JI0HI20141204

In before its AmayaStars all over again. Petition for Thewy to be removed as Team pro etc.

Very good, very good. Might have to get on The Ambassador's case, too.

I'm afraid I have a bit of a disconnect on this whole inability for poker players to understand that businesses operate for one reason, & one reason only - to make money. That's the same whether it be a supermarket or a gaming site. They exist to make money. They don't exist, as such, to "care" for anyone, unless it better serves their purpose. 

In fact, it goes a step further. Any Company which makes the same profit as last year is deemed to be failing, even if that is a huge sum. So the treadmill requres - DEMANDS - that all Businesses make more money than last year. The resistance to that notion, or inability to grasp it in an unemotive way, just astonishes me.

I don't expect poker players to LIKE it, of course not. But I would have thought they'd understand how business works, whether we like it ot not. 

I equally don't understand, beyond your role as devil's advocate and voice of reason, how you don't get why people are mad. It's fine to say that this is business and blah blah blah. But that sort of entirely misses the point.

Well I'm glad you can see a Devil's Advocate is needed to such a lopsided debate, we learn nothing from a bunch of people shouting & hollering & describing Amaya & DN in such unpleasant terms. 

When did a debate where one side just decide to describe the other as idiots, scumbags, douches & the like ever help contribute to a balanced view of the whole scene?

Do we really think that poker players understand poker businesses better than small gambling equipment suppliers? I certainly don't, it's as unlikely as Mr Amaya being able to teach poker players how to play.

FYP

I am done with this. They have clearly messed up the pricing of hyper sats, they may well win with million dollar spin and goes.  But who cares about the debate, if all you are interested in is pointing out what idiots we all are and that some other people say bad things about Negreanu.