Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[tikay]

One of the first places I played(donated) poker in London when I was around nineteen years old was The Mint Casino in Kilburn High Rd., which was above a Wimpey bar. The casino was originally owned by a bright young Jewish kid called Steve who I believe came from Brighton. The poker game was run by an old villain called Bill Manning who eventually owned or fronted the Casino as it became "Manning's Mint" for a while. One of the dealers in that poker game was a young guy known as "Chinese Willie" or Willie Tann to give him his correct name.

Later on the poker game was run by a guy called Billy Falco and to a lesser extent his younger brother Mickey. I guess they must be related to the Falco you mentioned earlier.

More of these tales Ralph!

Chinese Willie, good grief.

Thanks, I love that.

[luther101]

Tikay - as you're so obsessed with gangsters - I suggest you read up on the Adams Family (not Herman, Morticia et al).

They've made the Krays/Richardsons look like amateurs when it comes to organised crime, since the late 80s

The Law very rarely get a case through against them (tax evasion ffs), and their 'Empire' would have The Twins drooling.

They run the Charlie trade for the whole south of England (and further probably), have 'interests' in many clubs (incl The Ministry of Sound), and have been behind countless Gangland murders.

Most people have never heard of them (even though they've been top of the pile for over 20 years) - that's the difference between them and the Krays     ......      'Celebrity Villains' get nicked, and banged up!

Thanks Litherin,

I have never heard of them!

I'll get on the case right away, & go buy some books. Where are the Adams based?

I doubt they'll be any 'best sellers' in WH Smiths Tikay    .....      this lot still run London!

[MANTIS01]

I had a right good mate at the Club who I used to play 4 or 5 frames with every single night. We played a cross between billiards & snooker, it was all about laying & extracting oneself in & out of exquisite snookers. Easy pots were not to be taken, they resulted in huffy tuts, the idea was NOT to pot easy stuff, but play ultra ultra defensive, & frames could exceed 90 minutes on occasions.

We split the cost of the table, paid for each others drinks & food & were great mates. We never met outside of snooker, but we were as close friends as it's possible to be.

He came in one day with a face as long as a seaside donkey. Trouble at home, he needed money desperately, he could not pay a Court Fine, & was faced with 28 days inside, the wife was going apeshit, the kids were all in tears, da de da. Could I help? How much? - £200. Of course.

I never used to carry that sort of cash in those days, I said I'd go to the Bank the next day.

The 'phone rang at 9am the next morning. "You got that money yet Tony?" he asked. "No, the banks not open yet" I replied. He was stressed out, it had to be paid by Noon, can we meet at the Bank? Yeah yeah.

I get the money, he's waiting outside. He's droolingly grateful, "anything I can do to return the favour, just say, anything".

"Just pay me back as soon as you can. I won't mention it ever (it's embarrassing so to do, yes?), glad to have been able to help".

The weeks & months passed, we still met & played 4 or 5 frames every night. No sign of the cash. It's starting to niggle now, a year on. And he's feeding the slots every night. Hmm.

Time moves on, no money, so eventually, & with some awkwardness, I raise the matter. He goes off on one, big time, "what sort of mate are you?".

Eh?

We fall out, & never speak again. Every time we see each other it's awkward, we avert eyes, there's that atmo.

£200 was no big deal to me, & that never troubled me overly. Having my leg lifted did.

Amazingly, I never learned my lesson, & I've fallen for the same stunt time & time again.

I wonder where you draw the line betwen "kind" & "a soft touch", & do people prey on this?

Tikay, do you think in the grand scheme of things that £200 was money well spent? I mean sometimes I reckon these little grims by "friends" are almost worthwhile. I mean imagine if you had to put a monetary value on a longterm friendship. You could spend years of your life being a good friend and doing all the things a good friend should and then when the chips are down you find out their true colours and realise what a waste of your time that has been. I met a great guy through poker and we became firm friends quite quickly, we even went to Vegas a couple of years ago together. We got on really well until one night we both busted out of the tournament we were playing and found ourselves at the blackjack table. We agreed to put down $1k each and split the winnings at the end for a bit of fun. When I eventually lost my stake he cashed out for $6k after going on a massive heater. He gave me my $1k stake back. Secretly I was so gutted. I really didn't care about the money at all. It was the realisation of the true character of the guy that bothered me and of course the realisation that we couldn't be proper firm friends anymore because of it. Still pleasant and friendly with the guy to this day but that little grim cost him my absolute friendship which I reckon is worth more.

[luther101]

However, the 'A-Team' have made it into Wickipedia;

Clerkenwell crime syndicate
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Clerkenwell crime syndicate In Islington, London
Founded by Terry Adams and his brothers Tommy and Patrick
Years active 1980's-present
Territory Islington, London
Ethnicity Irish Catholic
Criminal activities Drug trafficking, armed robbery, Bribery, Arms trafficking, Assault, extortion, fraud, Skim, money laundering, murder, Attempted murder
Allies Yardie gangs hired out as muscle, Colombian drug cartels
Rivals Cranham Crime Syndicate
The Clerkenwell crime syndicate, most often known as the Adams Family or the A-team[1] by the British press, is alleged to be one of the most powerful criminal organisations in the United Kingdom if not in fact the strongest.[2] By the nature of their position reliable information about them that has not been distorted or exaggerated is hard to come by. But media reports have repeatedly linked them to around 25 murders[3] and credited them with wealth of up to £200 million.[4] Before two of the brothers were convicted in 1998 and 2007 respectively the failure of the police to secure convictions against them had led to a belief, amongst some, that they had utterly undermined the justice system so as to become untouchables. Police, Crown Prosecution Service staff and jurors were said to have been bribed and intimidated leading to not-guilty verdicts against members of the gang that were said to quite simply beggar belief.

Their position is now under threat: the gang's apparent leader, Terry Adams, has been serving a prison sentence since February 2007, and two of his brothers are under surveillance by the Serious Organised Crime Agency and police in Spain, making other criminals reluctant to do business with them.[5] It has been said that Terry Adams faces severe financial difficulties having been ordered, in May 2007, to repay £4.7 million in legal aid[6] and pay £800,000 of prosecution costs.

Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Members
2.1 Terry Adams
2.2 Sean Adams
2.3 Patrick Adams
2.4 Other family members and associates
3 Connections to other gangsters
4 References
 

[edit] History
The syndicate was formed in the 1980s by Terry Adams, with his brothers Tommy and Patrick Adams acting as financier and enforcer respectively. They come from a large Irish Catholic family. It expanded to include other members of the extended Adams clan and their close childhood friends. The gang's power base is the Clerkenwell neighbourhood in Islington. Terry Adams, until his admission of money laundering in February, 2007, lived in the Barnsbury area of Islington.

The gang is said to be heavily involved in drug trafficking and extortion as well as the hijacking of gold bullion shipments and security fraud. They have been linked to 25 gangland murders, using Afro-Caribbean muscle as additional manpower to murder informants and rival criminals (as would Sicilian mafiosi hired out by Charles Sabini and the Messina Brothers only decades before). As well as developing alleged connections to Metropolitan Police officials, they were also stated to have had a British Conservative MP in their pocket at one point. [7]

The shooting of the then 68 year old "Mad" Frankie Fraser, a former enforcer for The Richardson Gang, in July 1991 was said to have been ordered by the Adams family — though Fraser said he had been targeted by rogue police. The family is believed to have connections with various criminal organisations, specifically with South American drug cartels. Before the conviction of Terry Adams in 2007 the British media referred to the gang sparingly, considering their alleged influence, and normally described them as the A-team or the notorious Adams family from Islington.

Sean "Tommy" Adams gained high profile public attention again during a trial in 2004, when he was described as having attended a meeting in 2002 at the request of the former football international Kenny Dalglish. Dalglish was a major shareholder in Wilmslow based sports agency Pro Active, a leading sports management firm headed up by local Wilmslow businessman 42 year old Paul Stretford. Dalglish was reported[citation needed] to have hired Adams during a protracted deal to secure Pro Active's exclusive career sports management rights to Manchester United and England football striker Wayne Rooney.[clarification needed]

The nature of the criminal world means that it is sometimes difficult to assess the Adams' true strength. The BBC[8] has asserted that their influence decreased from 2000. Police officers speaking off the record to British newspapers have said that the family has been credited with acts that they simply did not carry out and judging by the number of alleged key gang members killed or imprisoned below this might well be true, however the Metropolitan Police took the Adams crimes so seriously they considered the need to involve not only a hand-picked CPS lead team of detectives but the country's highest level security service, MI5, in order to crack the Adams mafia-like organised crime cartel.

The degree to which the gang now operates as one is also unclear. Tommy Adams was imprisoned for his involvement in money laundering[1] and a drugs plot that was described as not having been sanctioned by his brothers. During a 18-month bugging operation by MI5,[1] Terry Adams was recorded speaking about his brother in very strident terms and suggesting that, in 1998 at least, relations between them were kept to a minimum. It has been widely stated that they have a criminal fortune of up to £200 million.[citation needed]

[edit] Members
[edit] Terry Adams
Terence George Adams, born Oct 18, 1954, admitted a single specimen money laundering offence on 7 February 2007 and was jailed for seven years on 9 March at a hearing at the Old Bailey where Andrew Mitchell QC summed up the prosecutions case in saying, ‘It is suggested that Terry Adams was one of the country’s most feared and revered organized criminals. He comes with a pedigree, as one of a family whose name had a currency all of its own in the underworld. A hallmark of his career was the ability to keep his evidential distance from any of the violence and other crime from which he undoubtedly profited.’ .

With remission Terry Adams should be released by October 2011 and possibly as early as August 2010. Following a £4.8M criminal trial for which the cost of the special CPS lead investigation was described by Judge Timothy Pontious as "unprecedented", the BBC reported on 12 March that Adams was likely to appeal his sentence. Charges against his wife were dropped following Adams' guilty plea to a specimen charge of financial impropriety. Along with Adams' decision to sack successive legal counsels, her ill health had delayed the Blackfriars Crown Court trial following their arrest in 2003 as part of the Metropolitan Police's Operation Trinity. Terry Adams had been widely recognised as the overall leader of the syndicate, but little information remains known about him before or following his conviction.

The former Scottish gangster Paul Ferris asserts that none of the brothers is primus inter pares (first among equals — ie in sole charge). Terry has been described as having a refined and cultured manner and as a collector of antiques, wine, and cars (including custom-built Cadillacs and Bentleys). The Evening Standard reported in 2000 that he lived in a “Finchley mansion”.

Terry Adams' downfall came with the assistance of MI5 and the Inland Revenue. MI5, in a unique inter-departmental collaboration the first of its kind after the Cold War ended, played a leading part in the electronic war against organised crime — and turned its sights on Adams' international criminal cartel. Police and MI5 set up a secret squad to dismantle the Adams organisation, directed from an anonymous Hertfordshire address inside a secret bunker sitting somewhere on the busy Hoddesdon commuter belt into London. An organized crime investigation which like that of New York mafia Don John Gotti in the 80's had taken exactly seven years was finally amalgamated under the codename Operation Trinity by Tony Blair's New Labour Government when electronic bugs were secretly hidden in the lounge, bedroom and loft of Adams’ Finchley mansion house. Terry Adams was heard making what later became chilling and violent testimony against certain individuals. Some of the recordings however made over a period of 18 months suggested that Adams had retired from front line involvement in crime in 1990. Police sources believed Adams knew he was being monitored and had "stage managed" many conversation for the benefit of his defense. For example he was caught on tape, in 1998, telling his adviser Solly Nahome that he did not want to be involved with a particular deal as it was illegal and he was now legitimate.

The Inland Revenue had their own suspicions and began asking Adams to explain how he had amassed his personal fortune and got his £2 million house and the valuable antiques he collected. Adams invented a range of unlikely occupations, including jeweller and public relations executive. Transcripts of the surveillance and investigations into several front companies Adams set up proved he was lying.

When he was arrested in April 2003 detectives found art and antiques valued at £500,000, £59,000 in cash and jewellery worth more than £40,000 in his home. On May 18, 2007 he was ordered to pay £4.8 million in legal fees to three law firms who had initially represented him under the UK's free legal aid scheme. He was also required to pay £800,000 in prosecution costs. A few days later on May 21, 2007 he was ordered to file reports setting out his income for the next ten years. Open case files remain untried on Operation Trinity records and rumour still exists that several further prosecution may eventually come to trial. In May, 2009 media reports suggested that his £1.6 million house was for sale as a result of the fees and costs arising from his 2007 conviction. A blog purporting to be by Ruth Adam's details the family's claims that notwithstanding the guilty plea Terence was innocent of the charge[1].

[edit] Sean Adams
Sean "Tommy" Adams, born in 1958, is allegedly financier for his brothers Terry and Patrick. A married father of four, he still has a home near the family's traditional Islington base, but is now living in Spain.

Tommy Adams was charged with involvement in the handling of Brinks Mat gold bullion but in 1985 was cleared of involvement in the laundering of the proceeds during a high profile Old Bailey trial with co defendant Kenneth Noye.[9]

Tommy Adams is suspected of establishing connections to other international criminal organisations including numerous Yardie gangs as well as gaining an $80 million credit line from Colombian drug cartels. In 1998, Adams was convicted of masterminding a £8 million hashish smuggling operation into Britain for which he was jailed for seven years. At trial he was also ordered to pay an unprecedented £6 million criminal assets embargo, or face an additional five years' imprisonment on top of his seven year term. On appeal the criminal assets embargo was later reduced by appeal judges to £1M largely due to the CPS not having sufficient material evidence, bank accounts or traceable assets to locate and verify Adams' criminal wealth. Tommy Adams wife, Androulla, paid his £1M criminal assets embargo in cash just two days before the CPS deadline.

[edit] Patrick Adams
Patrick 'Patsy' Adams, born in 1955, is regarded as one of the most violent organised crime figures in Great Britain. He gained an early reputation in London's underworld by using high-speed motorcycles in gangland murders and was a suspect in at least 25 organised crime related deaths over a three-year period. He was sentenced to seven years in prison in the 1970s for an armed robbery.

Although subordinate to Terry Adams, Patrick — sometimes known as Patsy — has participated in individual criminal activities, most notably he is suspected of the failed 1991 murder attempt on Frankie Fraser and, according to one account, assaulted his son David Fraser with a knife cutting off part of his ear during a drug deal. During the late 1990s, he was reported to spend much of his time in Southern Spain. Unlike many tabloid claims that he was a resident of the gliteratti coastline of Marbella The Independent stated in 2001 that he was “living in exile in Spain in a walled villa in Campo Mijas, a quiet residential suburb of north Fuengirola; none the less an address still bristling with security cameras just a few miles south of the popular holiday destination of Torremolinos”,.

[edit] Other family members and associates
Not all members of the family are criminals; some, including the Adamses's parents and several of their eight other siblings, are law-abiding.

Charlie Sargent a family relative who was imprisoned in 1998 for the murder of Christopher Castle.
Gilbert Wynter, a feared enforcer for the family, disappeared in 1998. Four years before, he was cleared of killing the former British high-jump champion Claude Moseley after a key prosecution witness refused to give evidence at the Old Bailey. Moseley worked as a drug dealer for the gang and was suspected of skimming money from his sales. Wynter was alleged to have thrust a samurai sword so deep into Moseley's back that it almost cut him in two. Wynter disappeared in March 1998 and underworld sources say he was killed after double-crossing the family. Gang lore says his body was buried in concrete and is propping up the Millennium Dome. Another account of his suspected death asserts that he was killed on the orders of noted London gangster Mickey Green.
Saul “Solly” Nahome, shot dead outside his £300,000 home in Finchley, north London, in 1998 by an assassin who escaped on a motorcycle, was suspected of acting as a financial adviser to the family. Nahome, a diamond merchant in Hatton Garden, Clerkenwell, was recruited by the syndicate and is thought by police to have laundered the money through the jewellery business, a restaurant in Smithfield and a West End nightclub. He is said to have secreted at least £25 million in offshore accounts. The secrets of the money's whereabouts may have died with him. He either died at the hands of the Adamses, when they found out he had stolen money from them, or on the orders of Mickey Green according to gangland accounts. Nahome was known to police as complicit with the laundering of the proceeds of Brinks Mat gold bullion theft.
Billy Isaacs, was described in a trial in 2000, of a Crown Prosecution Service clerk who was convicted of passing secret files to the family, as an Adams lieutenant.
Christopher McCormack who was alleged at a 1999 trial to be an enforcer for the family. He was cleared of causing grievous bodily harm to a businessman who had failed to repay £1.4 million to Terry Adams.
Michael Adams, born in 1965, a younger brother of the gang leaders, was convicted of possessing a firearm in the mid 1980s.
Robert Adams, (deceased) a relative of the family was imprisoned for his part in a huge attempted robbery at the Millennium Dome, London.
Anthony Passmore, a conman jailed in 1999 for six years over a multi-million-pound fraud who escaped from an open prison two months after his trial and has not been seen since.
Scottish gangster Pat McCadden, who was born in 1954..
Anthony Jones, 42, and David Tucker, 62,who were suspected, in 2005, by authorities in Florida of trying to smuggle cocaine worth $8 million on behalf of the family.
Scott Smith, born in 1968, Single, born in London now living in (Ash) Kent and Spain. Gets a not guilty most of the time. Drug dealer, money laundering, firearms, Kenny Noye's right hand man.
[edit] Connections to other gangsters
The Adams family have long been connected to the Brinks Mat Robbery and other individuals who helped sell the stolen gold, including Kenneth Noye. Hatton Garden diamond merchant Solly Nahome was also linked with the Adams Family and his disappearance was said to have angered Patrick Adams. Nahome was shot dead outside his £300,000 Finchley home in 1998.

The three convicted murderers of Ben Kinsella were also allegedly threatened by the Adams family. [10]

[EvilPie]

Do they love their mums these Adamses?

Let's hope so.

That way we can class them as great guys same as the Krays etc.

I bet you don't have to lock your front door on their street either.

True gentlemen.

[GreekStein]

I've also always been fascinated by this sort of stuff.

Anyone know any more about the Henderson or Brindle families?

I know a fair amount about the Arifs as I used to play pool with one of them. He was the youngest in the club by a mile but everyone knew who he was.

[StuartHopkin]

You read the book about our more local true gentleman Tikay?

[Dingdell]

The Inland Revenue had their own suspicions and began asking Adams to explain how he had amassed his personal fortune and got his £2 million house and the valuable antiques he collected. Adams invented a range of unlikely occupations, including jeweller and public relations executive. Transcripts of the surveillance and investigations into several front companies Adams set up proved he was lying.

When he was arrested in April 2003 detectives found art and antiques valued at £500,000, £59,000 in cash and jewellery worth more than £40,000 in his home. On May 18, 2007 he was ordered to pay £4.8 million in legal fees to three law firms who had initially represented him under the UK's free legal aid scheme. He was also required to pay £800,000 in prosecution costs. A few days later on May 21, 2007 he was ordered to file reports setting out his income for the next ten years. Open case files remain untried on Operation Trinity records and rumour still exists that several further prosecution may eventually come to trial. In May, 2009 media reports suggested that his £1.6 million house was for sale as a result of the fees and costs arising from his 2007 conviction. A blog purporting to be by Ruth Adam's details the family's claims that notwithstanding the guilty plea Terence was innocent of the charge[1].

[

Why didn't he just say he played poker and won lots of money? Surely gambling is the easiest form of money laundering? I'm sure there are thousands of chinese restaurants hardly turning over a penny but the owners are incredibly lucky at the tables and manage to create a lump of untaxable income from a couple of lucky spins....?

[tikay]

You read the book about our more local true gentleman Tikay?

To whom do you refer?

Is he a Gangster or a poker player?

Yes, yes, I've set myself up for the punch-line here.....

[EvilPie]

You read the book about our more local true gentleman Tikay?

To whom do you refer?

Is he a Gangster or a poker player?

Yes, yes, I've set myself up for the punch-line here.....

Think he's referring to the book "Hoods" about Nottingham gangsters.

Very interesting.

Sigh.... One of 'em sure wasn't best man at my sister's wedding......

[Royal Flush]

Ha i have a quality list of grimmers.

Oh and on the note of the person who agreed to pay back every month and did it 1 day earlier, the person who was going to pay me a 1er a month can you please start doing that!

[StuartHopkin]

You read the book about our more local true gentleman Tikay?

To whom do you refer?

Is he a Gangster or a poker player?

Yes, yes, I've set myself up for the punch-line here.....

Think he's referring to the book "Hoods" about Nottingham gangsters.

Very interesting.

Sigh.... One of 'em sure wasn't best man at my sister's wedding......

Lol thats the one!

A few of the extended group sure didnt used to drink in my local on a friday night!

[luther101]

The Inland Revenue had their own suspicions and began asking Adams to explain how he had amassed his personal fortune and got his £2 million house and the valuable antiques he collected. Adams invented a range of unlikely occupations, including jeweller and public relations executive. Transcripts of the surveillance and investigations into several front companies Adams set up proved he was lying.

When he was arrested in April 2003 detectives found art and antiques valued at £500,000, £59,000 in cash and jewellery worth more than £40,000 in his home. On May 18, 2007 he was ordered to pay £4.8 million in legal fees to three law firms who had initially represented him under the UK's free legal aid scheme. He was also required to pay £800,000 in prosecution costs. A few days later on May 21, 2007 he was ordered to file reports setting out his income for the next ten years. Open case files remain untried on Operation Trinity records and rumour still exists that several further prosecution may eventually come to trial. In May, 2009 media reports suggested that his £1.6 million house was for sale as a result of the fees and costs arising from his 2007 conviction. A blog purporting to be by Ruth Adam's details the family's claims that notwithstanding the guilty plea Terence was innocent of the charge[1].

[

Why didn't he just say he played poker and won lots of money? Surely gambling is the easiest form of money laundering? I'm sure there are thousands of chinese restaurants hardly turning over a penny but the owners are incredibly lucky at the tables and manage to create a lump of untaxable income from a couple of lucky spins....?

Ahem - that 'line of defence' didn't quite work for a certain 'Italian Geordie' poker player    ..........

[tikay]

I had a right good mate at the Club who I used to play 4 or 5 frames with every single night. We played a cross between billiards & snooker, it was all about laying & extracting oneself in & out of exquisite snookers. Easy pots were not to be taken, they resulted in huffy tuts, the idea was NOT to pot easy stuff, but play ultra ultra defensive, & frames could exceed 90 minutes on occasions.

We split the cost of the table, paid for each others drinks & food & were great mates. We never met outside of snooker, but we were as close friends as it's possible to be.

He came in one day with a face as long as a seaside donkey. Trouble at home, he needed money desperately, he could not pay a Court Fine, & was faced with 28 days inside, the wife was going apeshit, the kids were all in tears, da de da. Could I help? How much? - £200. Of course.

I never used to carry that sort of cash in those days, I said I'd go to the Bank the next day.

The 'phone rang at 9am the next morning. "You got that money yet Tony?" he asked. "No, the banks not open yet" I replied. He was stressed out, it had to be paid by Noon, can we meet at the Bank? Yeah yeah.

I get the money, he's waiting outside. He's droolingly grateful, "anything I can do to return the favour, just say, anything".

"Just pay me back as soon as you can. I won't mention it ever (it's embarrassing so to do, yes?), glad to have been able to help".

The weeks & months passed, we still met & played 4 or 5 frames every night. No sign of the cash. It's starting to niggle now, a year on. And he's feeding the slots every night. Hmm.

Time moves on, no money, so eventually, & with some awkwardness, I raise the matter. He goes off on one, big time, "what sort of mate are you?".

Eh?

We fall out, & never speak again. Every time we see each other it's awkward, we avert eyes, there's that atmo.

£200 was no big deal to me, & that never troubled me overly. Having my leg lifted did.

Amazingly, I never learned my lesson, & I've fallen for the same stunt time & time again.

I wonder where you draw the line betwen "kind" & "a soft touch", & do people prey on this?

Tikay, do you think in the grand scheme of things that £200 was money well spent? I mean sometimes I reckon these little grims by "friends" are almost worthwhile. I mean imagine if you had to put a monetary value on a longterm friendship. You could spend years of your life being a good friend and doing all the things a good friend should and then when the chips are down you find out their true colours and realise what a waste of your time that has been. I met a great guy through poker and we became firm friends quite quickly, we even went to Vegas a couple of years ago together. We got on really well until one night we both busted out of the tournament we were playing and found ourselves at the blackjack table. We agreed to put down $1k each and split the winnings at the end for a bit of fun. When I eventually lost my stake he cashed out for $6k after going on a massive heater. He gave me my $1k stake back. Secretly I was so gutted. I really didn't care about the money at all. It was the realisation of the true character of the guy that bothered me and of course the realisation that we couldn't be proper firm friends anymore because of it. Still pleasant and friendly with the guy to this day but that little grim cost him my absolute friendship which I reckon is worth more.

Yes, I do, sort of, though I add another reason. Once I get done by one of these wretched sorts, it closes the credit line, so it's never gonna cost any more, & I'm forever immune from him. Cheap at twice the price.

[tikay]

How do you stand on Lenny Mclean Tikay?

And his famous fight(s) with Roy Shaw?

Lenny = Proper Legend, THE best of his kind. He was a wonderful bloke. By trade he "minded doors".

I think he was genuinely, the hardest man in Brotain, by any standard. And a good man too, believe it or not.

He was in LS&2SB. I'll bring some photo's of Lenny in from his book - it's a terrific read, really.

I think he fought Shaw twice, or was it 3 times? I can't recall, but it as a very big thing at the time.

I really can't believe how you moan about people nicking the odd hundred quid and yet you seem to think these criminals are such great people? It just doesn't make sense. Meh, that's one for opinion and could be discussed pointlessly for weeks with no outcome.

As for being hard. Well yes he was very tough but I'm pretty sure that in his prime if you put him up against an athlete in a boxing ring he'd get battered inside of a minute. Totally different class between this guy and a professional boxer in terms of fighting.

I think it's funny that he fought Shaw 3 times and yet according to their respective books both of them 'never got beat'.

Wow!! 3 draws. Amazing.

Yes, it's illogical, I know.

I see the Lenny McLean types as something totally different from some pimply wannabee poker player on benefit who appeals to my better nature by sneaky & devious means. McLean would never touch a straight, ever.

But yes, it's an odd juxtaposition, but I can't deny it, it's just how my mind works, & how I think.