Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[GreekStein]

I watched a 'Pepsi Challenge' stall once to see if they tried to influence the outcome.  Of course they did!  The Coke was coming from 2 litre bottles that looked like they'd been sitting there for a while, whilst the Pepsi was coming out of a can. 

The best way to do a blind test, is to do it yourself at home.  Get someone to pour a can of each into identical glasses and mark the bases to indicate which is which.  That way you can make sure they have been stored in the same way, at the same temperature, etc.

I prefer Coke, as I find Pepsi tastes sweeter.  Saying that, I'm not really that fussed between the two, although it has to be full-fat and none of that diet nonsense.

That spot on "babe"?

According to a piece in one of Malcolm Gladwells books the results change in Cokes favour if the person drinks a whole can - with Pepsi being sweeter it did well in sipping tests as people appreciated the sweetness but in larger amounts coke won more taste tests because it wasn't as sweet.

Yeah that's spot on babe. Pepsi does better in taste tests because it is sweeter. Coke actually made their drink even sweeter to combat this and perform better but that turned people off when they drank a whole can. So they changed the recipe back and now it's called Coke Classic in the States.

quote fail?

[George2Loose]

I watched a 'Pepsi Challenge' stall once to see if they tried to influence the outcome.  Of course they did!  The Coke was coming from 2 litre bottles that looked like they'd been sitting there for a while, whilst the Pepsi was coming out of a can. 

The best way to do a blind test, is to do it yourself at home.  Get someone to pour a can of each into identical glasses and mark the bases to indicate which is which.  That way you can make sure they have been stored in the same way, at the same temperature, etc.

I prefer Coke, as I find Pepsi tastes sweeter.  Saying that, I'm not really that fussed between the two, although it has to be full-fat and none of that diet nonsense.

That spot on "babe"?

According to a piece in one of Malcolm Gladwells books the results change in Cokes favour if the person drinks a whole can - with Pepsi being sweeter it did well in sipping tests as people appreciated the sweetness but in larger amounts coke won more taste tests because it wasn't as sweet.

big time

Yeah that's spot on babe. Pepsi does better in taste tests because it is sweeter. Coke actually made their drink even sweeter to combat this and perform better but that turned people off when they drank a whole can. So they changed the recipe back and now it's called Coke Classic in the States.

quote fail?

[tikay]

The WSOP debate.......

Another problem has now complicated thigs still further for street-legal UK companies. I'm a shade hazy on the detail, but essentially, we cannot (legally) "promote" Gaming in overseas territrories.

"promote" is subject to interpretation, of course.

So, based on good (well, expensive....) legal advice, we are no longer permitted to say "win entry into a big poker Tournament in Las Vegas & you will have a chance to win shed loads of money". We cannot even say "win entry into the world's largest poker Tourney, the 2011 WSOP in Las Vegas".

So here's the official wording, or the relevant part of it.......

How would you like an all expenses paid trip to Las Vegas worth £10,000? Well at Sky Poker we're giving you that chance with our Viva Las Vegas promotion!

Every month till May we'll be holding a Viva Las Vegas final where 1 in 10 players will win the Viva Las Vegas package. And the best part? Well you could actually win your way there from as little as £1.45 with our daily satellites. Your prize package will include:

- Two return flights to Las Vegas
- A luxury suite at the world famous Rio Hotel for 10 days

The Landing Page screams "Win a trip to Vegas", & "£10,000 Package".  See....

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/poker-promotions/viva-las-vegas?tracking=pokerpmain

At the foot of it, are the detailed T & C's.

Note, & look as hard as you like, no mention of buying the winner into the WSOP.

So it gets awkward........

In fact, it has not been a problem so far, Sky Poker is a relatively small site, we take 5 or 6 to Vegas each year, (more this year), & it's sort of Community-based, which would not suit the hard-nosed high rollers at all, I fancy. ALL of our qualifiers hitherto have seen the WSOP Main Event as a sort of Holy grail of poker, & all want to play it. So we buy them all in direct, & look after them in a variety of ways.

"Any added value?" to follow.

[tikay]

Keith asked about Added value.

In the accepted, monetary sense, no, none at all.

It works like this.

The package is £10,000.

Sky Poker book return direct air flights, at a competitive price, by booking early. The winner can, if he or she wishes, take a Guest, if so, Sky Poker book that flight ticket, too.

Sky Poker book the Qualifier a Suite at The Rio for about 12 or 13 days. (can vary, it's up to the winner).

Sky Poker pay the $10,000 Entry into the WSOP Main Event.

Tot the costs of that lot up, & let's say it comes to £9,000.

In that example, the qualifier then get's given "the change", in this case £1,000.

So no, no Added Value.

However - & remember, this only applies, really, to relatively inexperienced players, looking for their poker trip of a lifetime, not hard-nosed Pros, but the "Community" thing is worked hard.

The players are all met off the plane at McCarron, & we get them a Limo, take them to the Rio, sort out their Suites, give them their apparel, take them out for a "Welcome Meal" evening (or a relaxed game of poker, to see how Vegas poker rooms work, as they prefer), & we take all the "guests", if non-playing partners, to Shows, Helicopter rides over Grand Canyon, yadda yadda. We usually round off the trip with a big party, too.

In between, the players get interviewed for the telly daily, cosseted, photographed, Updated, spoilt rotten, all that sort of thing. Not everyone's cup of tea, perhaps too "nice" for many, but so far, everyone seems to have had a grand time. We assume a sort of Mother Hen responsibility for those who want it, & if they don't, that's just fine.

So, no, no Added value, but a little extra something if you like that sort of thing.

[tikay]

What, if has been suggested, the qualifier, having seen the T & C's, & signed the written contract (yup, there's a written, fully legal Contract), decides to say "gtfo Sky Poker"?

It's never happened yet, but it might.

We go into it in good faith, & expect the other parties to do likewise.

And if they won't?

Well, I've been 100% open here, but I'll not answer that one, because you know the answer.

It'd probably get a bit messy, but I doubt anyone would end up in court. That's just the way it is in poker. (These are my personal views, of course).

[GreekStein]

Such a hard thing for most player to say no to the huge amounts that ftp and stars all offer. Would be such a dilemma

[The Camel]

This is all great Tony.

I'm sure your players love it, but you've got to remember when push comes to shove this is the biggest (or often only) chance for players to make some advertising money.

Could you honestly blame a player who has mouths to feed, bills to pay etc taking a five figure sum just for wearing a Stars or FT badge in the later stages of the tournament.

Stars did a very clever thing at the last WSOP.

If you wore their badge throughout the tournament, they would give you a PCA package (worth about 15k) if you cashed.

While it wasn't a great deal if you made the last 3 tables without a sponsor (you could probably negotiate a 6 figure deal), the ones who did indirectly paid the PCA packages for all those who mincashed and didn'rt get one second of tv coverage.

If Sky paid my hotel, or paid my flight and I accepted that money beforfe the tournament started, I would be loyal to Sky.

But as Sky rake the sattys and give no added value, I see nothing wrong in taking a deal from another site.

[The Camel]

I think it's just safest if I don't play any WSOP sattys on Sky

[George2Loose]

I think it's just safest if I don't play any WSOP sattys on Sky

thing is if you won a package you could surely just say you dont want to play the main event for sky because its not advertised as such?

[Jon MW]

What, if has been suggested, the qualifier, having seen the T & C's, & signed the written contract (yup, there's a written, fully legal Contract), decides to say "gtfo Sky Poker"?

...

On a related note to G2L

Why would anyone sign the contract?

The prize is a trip to Vegas, if you win the trip to Vegas, what is the incentive to sign anything binding you to more than that?

[tikay]

This is all great Tony.

I'm sure your players love it, but you've got to remember when push comes to shove this is the biggest (or often only) chance for players to make some advertising money.

Could you honestly blame a player who has mouths to feed, bills to pay etc taking a five figure sum just for wearing a Stars or FT badge in the later stages of the tournament.

Stars did a very clever thing at the last WSOP.

If you wore their badge throughout the tournament, they would give you a PCA package (worth about 15k) if you cashed.

While it wasn't a great deal if you made the last 3 tables without a sponsor (you could probably negotiate a 6 figure deal), the ones who did indirectly paid the PCA packages for all those who mincashed and didn'rt get one second of tv coverage.

If Sky paid my hotel, or paid my flight and I accepted that money beforfe the tournament started, I would be loyal to Sky.

But as Sky rake the sattys and give no added value, I see nothing wrong in taking a deal from another site.

I don't want that there is a misunderstanding here, Keith.

You know the answer to your rhetorical question, so do I, & I have absolutely no problems with your line.

I was asked to explain how it worked, da de da, I've done that, no holds barred, not tried to cooey it. It was not a selling exercise, but I thought the debate, prompted by you & several others, was/is excellent, & I don't have any problem with answering any of the questions, & trying to contextualise the whole thing.

I suppose, in short, a certain sort of player tries to win a 'Stars or FT package, & a completely different type of player tries to win a Sky Poker package. Both are just fine, each to their own.

I/we would prefer that players on Sky Poker respected the letter & spirit of the T & C's, & so far, it's all ticks, but sooner or later that bridge will be crossed. And Plan B is there, ready & waiting, when it does.

I'm fully aware of the realities of the situation, worry not, & I know exctly how 'Stars worked the PCA thing last year. One of our bigger players, Redmond Lee, got exactly that Deal in '10, but he was in Vegas on his own coin, not to represent us.

I'm not sure I find tasteful the stuff that 'Stars & FT do out there, with their carrier bags full of money, but if I were a poker pro, I'd be wholly pragmatic about it I imagine, although personally - & this is just a personal quirk - I would not break any T & C's that I had signed with good intent. But that's just my line, I'm quite happy with that, & I have no problem with you taking your line, either.

We are all different, & that's good.

[The Camel]

This is all great Tony.

I'm sure your players love it, but you've got to remember when push comes to shove this is the biggest (or often only) chance for players to make some advertising money.

Could you honestly blame a player who has mouths to feed, bills to pay etc taking a five figure sum just for wearing a Stars or FT badge in the later stages of the tournament.

Stars did a very clever thing at the last WSOP.

If you wore their badge throughout the tournament, they would give you a PCA package (worth about 15k) if you cashed.

While it wasn't a great deal if you made the last 3 tables without a sponsor (you could probably negotiate a 6 figure deal), the ones who did indirectly paid the PCA packages for all those who mincashed and didn'rt get one second of tv coverage.

If Sky paid my hotel, or paid my flight and I accepted that money beforfe the tournament started, I would be loyal to Sky.

But as Sky rake the sattys and give no added value, I see nothing wrong in taking a deal from another site.

I don't want that there is a misunderstanding here, Keith.

You know the answer to your rhetorical question, so do I, & I have absolutely no problems with your line.

I was asked to explain how it worked, da de da, I've done that, no holds barred, not tried to cooey it. It was not a selling exercise, but I thought the debate, prompted by you & several others, was/is excellent, & I don't have any problem with answering any of the questions, & trying to contextualise the whole thing.

I suppose, in short, a certain sort of player tries to win a 'Stars or FT package, & a completely different type of player tries to win a Sky Poker package. Both are just fine, each to their own.

I/we would prefer that players on Sky Poker respected the letter & spirit of the T & C's, & so far, it's all ticks, but sooner or later that bridge will be crossed. And Plan B is there, ready & waiting, when it does.

I'm fully aware of the realities of the situation, worry not, & I know exctly how 'Stars worked the PCA thing last year. One of our bigger players, Redmond Lee, got exactly that Deal in '10, but he was in Vegas on his own coin, not to represent us.

I'm not sure I find tasteful the stuff that 'Stars & FT do out there, with their carrier bags full of money, but if I were a poker pro, I'd be wholly pragmatic about it I imagine, although personally - & this is just a personal quirk - I would not break any T & C's that I had signed with good intent. But that's just my line, I'm quite happy with that, & I have no problem with you taking your line, either.

We are all different, & that's good.

One question Tikay, and I would really like an honest answer.

After reading my post about what happened between me and Betfair during the 09 WSOP, do you think I behaved unethically?

[The Camel]

BTW, if I had signed anything with Betfair, I would not have taken Pokerstas money.

But I signed nothing.

[tikay]

What, if has been suggested, the qualifier, having seen the T & C's, & signed the written contract (yup, there's a written, fully legal Contract), decides to say "gtfo Sky Poker"?

...

On a related note to G2L

Why would anyone sign the contract?

The prize is a trip to Vegas, if you win the trip to Vegas, what is the incentive to sign anything binding you to more than that?

The Package is non-transferable, & there is no cash alternative.

So, if you don't sign the contract, we don't book the flight or Hotel........

Jon, forget the legalese, that's not an issue. If someone wants to break the T & C's, it's quite clear there is not much that can be done.

The players who qualify on Sky Poker know the deal, & if they want to mess about, fine, so be it. You seem to be assuming we have not considered these scenarios & risks. We have, & if you read what I've written, it's quite clear we know the score. It actually happened - almost - to us in '08, & we worked through it. Nobody knew, but lots of things happen in Vegas that nobody knows. I'm not "making a case", I'm answering questions.

[tikay]

This is all great Tony.

I'm sure your players love it, but you've got to remember when push comes to shove this is the biggest (or often only) chance for players to make some advertising money.

Could you honestly blame a player who has mouths to feed, bills to pay etc taking a five figure sum just for wearing a Stars or FT badge in the later stages of the tournament.

Stars did a very clever thing at the last WSOP.

If you wore their badge throughout the tournament, they would give you a PCA package (worth about 15k) if you cashed.

While it wasn't a great deal if you made the last 3 tables without a sponsor (you could probably negotiate a 6 figure deal), the ones who did indirectly paid the PCA packages for all those who mincashed and didn'rt get one second of tv coverage.

If Sky paid my hotel, or paid my flight and I accepted that money beforfe the tournament started, I would be loyal to Sky.

But as Sky rake the sattys and give no added value, I see nothing wrong in taking a deal from another site.

I don't want that there is a misunderstanding here, Keith.

You know the answer to your rhetorical question, so do I, & I have absolutely no problems with your line.

I was asked to explain how it worked, da de da, I've done that, no holds barred, not tried to cooey it. It was not a selling exercise, but I thought the debate, prompted by you & several others, was/is excellent, & I don't have any problem with answering any of the questions, & trying to contextualise the whole thing.

I suppose, in short, a certain sort of player tries to win a 'Stars or FT package, & a completely different type of player tries to win a Sky Poker package. Both are just fine, each to their own.

I/we would prefer that players on Sky Poker respected the letter & spirit of the T & C's, & so far, it's all ticks, but sooner or later that bridge will be crossed. And Plan B is there, ready & waiting, when it does.

I'm fully aware of the realities of the situation, worry not, & I know exctly how 'Stars worked the PCA thing last year. One of our bigger players, Redmond Lee, got exactly that Deal in '10, but he was in Vegas on his own coin, not to represent us.

I'm not sure I find tasteful the stuff that 'Stars & FT do out there, with their carrier bags full of money, but if I were a poker pro, I'd be wholly pragmatic about it I imagine, although personally - & this is just a personal quirk - I would not break any T & C's that I had signed with good intent. But that's just my line, I'm quite happy with that, & I have no problem with you taking your line, either.

We are all different, & that's good.

One question Tikay, and I would really like an honest answer.

After reading my post about what happened between me and Betfair during the 09 WSOP, do you think I behaved unethically?

Keith, I have to start my PTP Evening next door now, 7.15 to be precise, so I'll answer that later if I may. I need to read properly what you Posted, first too.

You will get an honest answer, too. If you recall, I was there at the time, & I watched your situation develop, day by day, & you discussed it with me at the time.

Later.