Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[tikay]

That's a great photograph.

Amazing that it's presumably cheaper to make it in China, build a special ship to carry it & sail it halfway round the world, than make it in GB. 

i suppose it sums up the problems of a domestic steel industry in one photo

Indeed. The Chinese are dumping steel in the world market and we're buying it for infrastructure projects?

I could wax political here. I can certainly say that the failure to support our domestic steel industry and the heavy manufacturing industries has been a major failing of government for the past thirty years.

I don't for a moment lack sympathy with those who lost their jobs, or face redundancy, but I'm not sure I buy that David.

Where does subsiding industry stop? How much money should we pour into private industries that are owned by shareholders?

If we want examples of what happens when Government interferes with commerce, Network Rail is a good place to start - what an unholy mess our rail system has become, with, I must add, the glorious exception of the London Underground System which has improved out of all recognition in the last 50 years.   

[tikay]

Such a lovely game, imo. Baffles me why 90% or whatever don't play it, but I'd play it every day if I could. And if I could afford to......

Online the rake is just too high, tikay.  On Pstars $100 zoom, the house takes one stack off the table every hour - everyone's starting stack gone after six hour's play.  In lower limits it's as much as 200 big blinds going down the slot every hour! (Even you must admit that deserves an exclamation mark.)  

If Sky set the omaha rake at 5% capped at 1 small blind (and advertised it), I would be extremely surprised if their traffic didn't increase massively.

Do you just mean PLO, or all online poker?

Not sure I agree.

If, let's say, an online poker site halved the rake, would they get double the Margin? I am sure they would not.

If we want to play poker, we have to pay for the service provided, be it Live or Online.

Operators need to make a good ROI as well as players. I suppose it's a question of balance, it needs to be attractive to both players & operators.

Not everyone bothers about the rake, as it happens. A significant number of poker players just love the fun of the game, love a gamble. They don't really expect to make money, they just want to enjoy themselves.

Move the argument across to bookmakers, especially the Online ones. Anyone with half a brain must realise they cannot beat the bookies inbuilt profit margin, & yet Online Sports Betting is a huge market. What % of sports bettors make a profit? 5%? 10%? Does not stop people, in ever increasing numbers, from punting.

People love the buzz they get from gambling, & seem to be happy to pay for it.
  

[tikay]

Saw thIs about your idol, and thought you might enjoy.

Spare a thought for poor ole for Michael O’Leary, Chief Executive of Ryanair. After arriving in a hotel in Dublin, he went to the bar and asked for a pint of Guinness. The barman nodded and said, "That will be €1 please, Mr. O’Leary." Somewhat taken aback, O'Leary replied, "That's very cheap," and handed over his money. "Well, we do try to stay ahead of the competition", said the barman. "And we are serving free pints every Wednesday from 6pm until 8pm. We have the cheapest beer in Ireland". "That is remarkable value", Michael comments. "I see you don't seem to have a glass, so you'll probably need one of ours. That will be €3 please." O'Leary scowled, but paid up. He took his drink and walked towards a seat. "Ah, you want to sit down?" said the barman. "That'll be an extra €2. You could have pre-booked the seat, and it would have only cost you €1." "I think you may to be too big for the seat sir, can I ask you to sit in this frame please". Michael attempts to sit down but the frame is too small and when he can't squeeze in he complains "Nobody would fit in that little frame". "I'm afraid if you can't fit in the frame you'll have to pay an extra surcharge of €4 for your seat sir". O'Leary swore to himself, but paid up. "I see that you have brought your laptop with you" added the barman. "And since that wasn't pre-booked either, that will be another €3." O'Leary was so incensed that he walked back to the bar, slammed his drink on the counter, and yelled, "This is ridiculous, I want to speak to the manager". "I see you want to use the counter," says the barman, "that will be €2 please." O'Leary's face was red with rage. "Do you know who I am?" "Of course I do Mr. O'Leary." "I've had enough! What sort of Hotel is this? I come in for a quiet drink and you treat me like this. I insist on speaking to a manager!" "Here is his E-mail address, or if you wish, you can contact him between 9.00am and 9.01am every morning, Monday to Tuesday at this free phone number. Calls are free, until they are answered, then there is a talking charge of only €1 per second, or part thereof". "I will never use this bar again". "OK sir, but remember, we are the only hotel in Ireland selling pints for €1.

Pretty sure that Sir Michael, who owns Ryanair shares worth €750 million, will cope.

They recently reported another surge in profits, too.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/09/ryanair-profits-to-break-1bn-barrier

He built that business from nothing, inside 30 years.

Everyone loves to pretend to hate Ryanair, but not many airlines - globally - carry more passengers, more punctually, in a more modern airline fleet. Makes you wonder who all these passengers are. 

Their latest whizz is to start flights to Israel, with plans to build a hub there. More moans, more passengers, more money in Michael's pocket.

He'd be in anyone's "Top Ten Businessmen" list, along with Buffett, Jack Welch, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Terry Leahy, Jeff Bezos & co.

Nothing but admiration for them all.

So there.





   

 

[doubleup]

Such a lovely game, imo. Baffles me why 90% or whatever don't play it, but I'd play it every day if I could. And if I could afford to......

Online the rake is just too high, tikay.  On Pstars $100 zoom, the house takes one stack off the table every hour - everyone's starting stack gone after six hour's play.  In lower limits it's as much as 200 big blinds going down the slot every hour! (Even you must admit that deserves an exclamation mark.)  

If Sky set the omaha rake at 5% capped at 1 small blind (and advertised it), I would be extremely surprised if their traffic didn't increase massively.

Do you just mean PLO, or all online poker?

Not sure I agree.

If, let's say, an online poker site halved the rake, would they get double the Margin? I am sure they would not.

If we want to play poker, we have to pay for the service provided, be it Live or Online.

Operators need to make a good ROI as well as players. I suppose it's a question of balance, it needs to be attractive to both players & operators.

Not everyone bothers about the rake, as it happens. A significant number of poker players just love the fun of the game, love a gamble. They don't really expect to make money, they just want to enjoy themselves.

Move the argument across to bookmakers, especially the Online ones. Anyone with half a brain must realise they cannot beat the bookies inbuilt profit margin, & yet Online Sports Betting is a huge market. What % of sports bettors make a profit? 5%? 10%? Does not stop people, in ever increasing numbers, from punting.

People love the buzz they get from gambling, & seem to be happy to pay for it.
  

I agree with this but the charges are too high in plo.  Your original query was why plo was not so popular online.  The answer is that it is too expensive a form of entertainment. 

[teddybloat]

A significant number of poker players just love the fun of the game, love a gamble. They don't really expect to make money, they just want to enjoy themselves.

Move the argument across to bookmakers, especially the Online ones. Anyone with half a brain must realise they cannot beat the bookies inbuilt profit margin, & yet Online Sports Betting is a huge market. What % of sports bettors make a profit? 5%? 10%? Does not stop people, in ever increasing numbers, from punting.

People love the buzz they get from gambling, & seem to be happy to pay for it.

  

Poker differs from sports books and casinos in one crucial way.

Competition.

Poker players are in competition with each other and pay the house for hosting the game. If the house makes it so games aren't beatable then I'd argue they are doing those players a disservice.

5-10% of sports bettors may be winners, and you can say that most people simply like gambling. but 27% of sky's players are winning players - already over a quarter of the customers care about winning. Then there are break even players who care enough about winning to learn how to beat the player-pool but can't quite win after paying rake. Then losing players who want to be winners. There was an infamous diary next door of a player who was desperately trying to beat 50p dyms. He was so frustrated about not improving that he gave up on them and hasn't played a single game (or payed a penny in rake) since July.

He was playing a game that was unbeatable due to rake. He was better than the players in his games, but a big loser at his stakes. Most of all you could sense the frustration of someone who could not see his efforts being rewarded in the one way most poker players measure success: his bankroll.

Training sites are funded by losing players that care about winning. Huge industry

How many truly don't care about winning and play for pure gamble? A lot for sure. But demonstrably it isn't as many % wise as sports books and casino games.

Part of the attraction is the skill element that means games are beatable.

I don't follow plo much, but I am aware that rake makes cash games  near unbeatable at midstakes and below. Plo8 would be even worse due to the number of chops. Hence I wouldn't ever dabble in Plo cash. Maybe unbeatable games are good for poker from the view of the house,  but they can't be good for the players.

Who knows how many people are similarly put off by the rake?

[tikay]

Ha, yes, I'm aware of the structural difference between Sports Betting & Poker, or even bingo. There seems to be an assumption by many that anyone connected with a poker site is ignorant of how they work, judging by some of the questions I have fielded this week. 

I don't play PLO or PLO8 cash Online, so I don't really know about the rake, but plenty seem to play it. This started with me being almost controversial by suggesting I actually enjoyed PLO (& poker generally) & that it was a great game. I do, & it is. And I don't mind paying for certain pleasures in life.

How many are put off by rake? I've absolutely no idea, neither of us have. I do know that the numbers Next Door are significantly up (well into double digit growth) against last year, so that's some comfort.   

If people don't like the cost of something, they don't buy, its that simple, whether we are talking about the price of poker, cinema tickets, train fares or Sky TV subscriptions.

Don't want to get into spam, but UKOPS just finished, & I've spent half the week being tag teamed, often rudely & sarcastically, by serious sorts telling me how Sky made a complete mess of UKOPS. I don't have much sympathy with such rudeness because they know I can't respond in kind, so its a bit below the belt imo. So I just reply, time after time, politely & respectfully.

And yet it beat it's Guarantees by 50%, had the 4 biggest (by number of entrants) MTT's in it's history, & despite the Main Event coming at the end of a marathon 15 day bankroll draining period, the Main attracted the biggest prize pool ever seen on that site, £54,000. 4 of the Events had big overlay, which seemed to excite many, but they had no understanding of the logic, or the acquisition numbers.

It was the busiest 2 weeks ever the site has had, records galore were broken. And then I spend all week replying to players who say they messed up UKOPS, & shoulda this that or the other. Yeah yeah, whatever.

Anyway, it's done now, & the very day it ended, the next UKPC was announced, so off we go again. Amazing to think it's the 5th renewal. My baby is growing up.
 

[tikay]

Such a lovely game, imo. Baffles me why 90% or whatever don't play it, but I'd play it every day if I could. And if I could afford to......

Online the rake is just too high, tikay.  On Pstars $100 zoom, the house takes one stack off the table every hour - everyone's starting stack gone after six hour's play.  In lower limits it's as much as 200 big blinds going down the slot every hour! (Even you must admit that deserves an exclamation mark.)  

If Sky set the omaha rake at 5% capped at 1 small blind (and advertised it), I would be extremely surprised if their traffic didn't increase massively.

Do you just mean PLO, or all online poker?

Not sure I agree.

If, let's say, an online poker site halved the rake, would they get double the Margin? I am sure they would not.

If we want to play poker, we have to pay for the service provided, be it Live or Online.

Operators need to make a good ROI as well as players. I suppose it's a question of balance, it needs to be attractive to both players & operators.

Not everyone bothers about the rake, as it happens. A significant number of poker players just love the fun of the game, love a gamble. They don't really expect to make money, they just want to enjoy themselves.

Move the argument across to bookmakers, especially the Online ones. Anyone with half a brain must realise they cannot beat the bookies inbuilt profit margin, & yet Online Sports Betting is a huge market. What % of sports bettors make a profit? 5%? 10%? Does not stop people, in ever increasing numbers, from punting.

People love the buzz they get from gambling, & seem to be happy to pay for it.
  

I agree with this but the charges are too high in plo.  Your original query was why plo was not so popular online.  The answer is that it is too expensive a form of entertainment. 

I may be missing the point, if so, apologies, why is that different to NLH?

[tikay]

Oops, reading back, I'm a bit ranty this morning, general grouchyness, headache, assorted aches & pains coupled with a challenging week & the approach of Christmas.

Apologies.  

[tikay]

Meanwhile, the Gill jog jog jogging excitement continues, & she has decided to do the Bushy Park 5k ParkRun next Saturday.

Much excitement.

Her blister problem has cleared completely - she now has the correct (& expensive) shoes & socks, so that's all good.

She registered for the Bushy Park run & got an e-Mail in reply, which included this gem.....


•Date of Birth: Due to data protection issues, we are not sending your date of birth in this email.


Now I do understand the DPA only too well, but that's a shocker. It's a private e-Mail, sent to Gill only.

Not sure that makes any sense to me, but I guess there is good reason. That DPA is a right PITA at times, well intended as it may be.

[doubleup]

Such a lovely game, imo. Baffles me why 90% or whatever don't play it, but I'd play it every day if I could. And if I could afford to......

Online the rake is just too high, tikay.  On Pstars $100 zoom, the house takes one stack off the table every hour - everyone's starting stack gone after six hour's play.  In lower limits it's as much as 200 big blinds going down the slot every hour! (Even you must admit that deserves an exclamation mark.)  

If Sky set the omaha rake at 5% capped at 1 small blind (and advertised it), I would be extremely surprised if their traffic didn't increase massively.

Do you just mean PLO, or all online poker?

Not sure I agree.

If, let's say, an online poker site halved the rake, would they get double the Margin? I am sure they would not.

If we want to play poker, we have to pay for the service provided, be it Live or Online.

Operators need to make a good ROI as well as players. I suppose it's a question of balance, it needs to be attractive to both players & operators.

Not everyone bothers about the rake, as it happens. A significant number of poker players just love the fun of the game, love a gamble. They don't really expect to make money, they just want to enjoy themselves.

Move the argument across to bookmakers, especially the Online ones. Anyone with half a brain must realise they cannot beat the bookies inbuilt profit margin, & yet Online Sports Betting is a huge market. What % of sports bettors make a profit? 5%? 10%? Does not stop people, in ever increasing numbers, from punting.

People love the buzz they get from gambling, & seem to be happy to pay for it.
  

I agree with this but the charges are too high in plo.  Your original query was why plo was not so popular online.  The answer is that it is too expensive a form of entertainment. 

I may be missing the point, if so, apologies, why is that different to NLH?

The site doesn't rake in 20 or more big blinds every hundred from a player in NLH. Sites have recognised for years that Heads-up games get raked less because more flops are seen, PLO is exactly the same with the added twist that there are loads of 50/50s on the flop.  So it deserves a different rake structure if it is to be a sustainable game where people pay for entertainment and keep coming back.  My suggestion of a one small blind cap, protects the micro levels and builds a stable foundation where people who study the game can win.

As far as walking away if you don't like it, I have, when I could happily be playing for hours if the rake was lower - you don't play plo cash at all and are making videos about it...... 

[teddybloat]

There seems to be an assumption by many that anyone connected with a poker site is ignorant of how they work,

au contraire, one reason i always open a thread that has the 'last post by...tikay' signifier is that i either learn so much from doing so, or catch some inspriration from your enthusiasm for the game and its players.

was merely offering an answer to the question of why plo cash isnt as popular as it maybe should be, and offering a counter to the comparision of poker to casino games when it comes to game appeal.

i'm so pleased for the guys behind skypoker, its a fantastic - almost bespoke site - and deserves its success.

[arbboy]

I think people need to remember skybet/poker and all their products have never competed on price/low margins.  They have always competed on quality of service.  This is great for pro players because they tend to attract players who don't care about margins/prices and want to gamble for entertainment.  I know 2 or 3 of my poker only mates who have moved to sky to play cash and they are absolutely killing it for this reason.  They said the rakeback is nowhere near what they have had in the past but they don't care because the sky business model brings them players who are much easier to beat so they don't need to rely on rakeback as much.  They would prefer sky to charge more rake as long as they keep sucking in people via their rake being used for quality marketing who are bad and they have a huge edge against.

[doubleup]

I know 2 or 3 of my poker only mates who have moved to sky to play cash and they are absolutely killing it for this reason.  

well they ain't "killing it" in plo as there is rarely anything like the liquidity required to do so.

And anyway the discussion is about sustainability not "rape the fish and find another one when he goes broke"

[arbboy]

I know 2 or 3 of my poker only mates who have moved to sky to play cash and they are absolutely killing it for this reason.  

well they ain't "killing it" in plo as there is rarely anything like the liquidity required to do so.

And anyway the discussion is about sustainability not "rape the fish and find another one when he goes broke"

The discussion is about rake and how much sites charge as far as i am aware.  Sky poker will never look to compete on being the lowest % rake site.  If anything they will always operate at the other end of the scale  They have a trusted huge global brand to sell to customers and they are a low volume/high margin business model (in line with skybet as well) because they don't have to compete on price.  As Tikay said if they halved the rake they would not get anywhere near double the volume so their profits would be reduced before all the additional overheads involving the doubling of turnover such as bank charges/sign up bonuses etc.

[doubleup]

The convo started with tikay saying he didn't understand why plo wasn't as popular as it should be, I said it was because the rake structure destroyed all customers.  You then revealed that Sky's business plan was to make your mates rich.