Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[thetank]

I have a few questions for Tikay too. The subject matter is a little delicate, so in order to mask my own postion somewhat, I have worded them in as neutral a toungue as I can muster.



Given that Justin Bonomo was a kid caught multi accounting at a time when everyone and their mother (and their grandmothers too iirc) were at it, and has already been punished at the time by having his mad dimez confiscated and character assasinated Salem Massachusetts style-e, would continuing to punish him 4 years later by excluding him from live poker be a wee bit harsh?

Given that live poker and internet poker are like apples and oranges, would banning Bonomo from a B&M casino for breaching an online site's terms and conditions a wee while ago make as much sense as banning LeKnave from the same casino for stealing sweeties from the shoppy when he was 12?

Given that half the field of every poker comp from the days of Wild Bill Hitchcock and Mad Dog McGee*  to today is chock a block full of characters who are bent as a nine bob note, or have at least had somewhat colourful lives where a little flexibility in their ethical standards was necessitated at some point, would the levels of hypocracy involved in banning Bonomo from live events leave you puzzled, slightly perplexed or stupified beyond the point of reason?



* Might not be their real names.

[tikay]

Tikay, where do you stand on players that have been proven cheaters in the poker world?

Players such as Mark Telscher and Justin Bonomo who are both proven dual account cheats online have suffered no live penalty for cheating.

Its extremely rare that players get penalties for cheating/breaking the rules, what changes would you like to see brought in or enforced to a greater degree?

I played against Teltscher in a cash game on Crypto a short while back (degen shot taking ftw!) and the table was talking about his case. He said another well known pro was involved in his case which is why he's never been able to fully offer his side of the story and a lot is not yet known.

He's still a tosser

Well he woud say that, eh?.....

But I think it unfair to describe him as a tosser, highly inappropriate really. If the Olympics had Events for Insolence, High-Handedness, Arrogance, & Holier-than-thouness, he'd be challenging Redgrave. But tosser, that's a bit harsh, imo.

[AndrewT]

So, what was unusual about that final at the Empire, then?

[tikay]

I have a few questions for Tikay too. The subject matter is a little delicate, so in order to mask my own postion somewhat, I have worded them in as neutral a toungue as I can muster.



Given that Justin Bonomo was a kid caught multi accounting at a time when everyone and their mother (and their grandmothers too iirc) were at it, and has already been punished at the time by having his mad dimez confiscated and character assasinated Salem Massachusetts style-e, would continuing to punish him 4 years later by excluding him from live poker be a wee bit harsh?

Given that live poker and internet poker are like apples and oranges, would banning Bonomo from a B&M casino for breaching an online site's terms and conditions a wee while ago make as much sense as banning LeKnave from the same casino for stealing sweeties from the shoppy when he was 12?

Given that half the field of every poker comp from the days of Wild Bill Hitchcock and Mad Dog McGee*  to today is chock a block full of characters who are bent as a nine bob note, or have at least had somewhat colourful lives where a little flexibility in their ethical standards was necessitated at some point, would the levels of hypocracy involved in banning Bonomo from live events leave you puzzled, slightly perplexed or stupified beyond the point of reason?



* Might not be their real names.

Gotta love Tank. He wants me to read between the lines - so he leaves big spaces between the lines.....

Well the Thread has mentioned Telscher & Bonomo, but was there not another, Sorrel Mizzi (?) who got rewarded by Betfair with a bunch of Sponsorship? Which says more about Betfair than (Sorrel?) tbh.

I think your points are fair Tank, though really, you are challenging Jim (77dave), not me.

I'm sort of ambivelant on this. OK, it's no big deal, but remember, these guys are pulling a stroke on fellow players, not against the Cardroom. Makes it far less honourable in my eyes. But really, I'm sort of relaxed about it.

I think it's a bit creative to suggest "everyone does it". Yeah, lots of times players swap accounts, but there are times when it's a bit less innocent than that.  Whatever.

It sort of depends on your upbringing, & experience in life I guess. I played snooker for 20 years, & the "self-policing" in that was a wonderful thing. Snooker players never cheated, & always "declared" a foul, however minor or unintentional.

Then I went for golf, again, self-policing, to such a degree of pedancy that you'd be amazed. The R & A Rule Book is incredibly complicated, & no decent golfer plays without one in his bag. At Club Level, sometimes it'd take 20 or 30 minutes out on the course to ensure a particular Ruling was spot on. And in those cases of doubt, at the end of the round, the Cards would not be offered for signing (you sign another players Scorecard in Golf) until the matter had been referred to a Rules specialist, or Mr Secretary. To break a Rule at golf is a hienous sin, & you'd be ostracised by all fellow Golfers.

So, I spent so long, in these wonderful, self-policing, games, where to cheat meant you wore a badge of shame, that I find some of the jiggery-pokery, & behaviour, in Poker, a bit bewildering.

I almost agreee with you really. It's not that big a deal. But I'd prefer not to mix or interact with these sorts, gven the choice. Which I'm not.......

"Characters" are fine, but "characters" is not a misnomer for a scammer & cheat. "Characters" are a bit dodgy, wide, yeah, but great fun, but those who piss on their mates are not "characters" at all - they are low-lifes.

Right, that's the 2 easy ones answered - now for Jim's, which is a whole lot tougher.

[thetank]

No offence Jim

I dropped 7 buy-ins yesterday, just wanted to disagree with someone about something. 

[tikay]

So, what was unusual about that final at the Empire, then?

Oh yes, forgot about that. And it gives me the chance to swerve 77dave's superbly-well-phrased & diifficult-to-answer-without-getting- myself-in-the-shite question for a shade longer too.....

Well, it had THE most amazing structure. 84 (ish) runners, 15k starting stack, 1 hour clock, all levels, & Antes which had no function at all - they never exceeded the SMALL Blind, in total. Nice if you like that sorta thing, not if you don't. Right up my street, but not everyone's cup of tea.

We - the In-Poker Crew - turned up at 2pm on Sunday, for Day Two, to find 15 runners left.

I looked at the plasma - Blinds 500-1,000, average stack 62,000. (roughly, I forget the exact numbers). 62 x BB AVERAGE - WTF?

I checked again, did my maths 4 times - yes. 62 Big Blinds AVERAGE. On Day Two. With 15 left. Have you ever known an average like that in such a Comp? And how on earth had 69 players busted on Day One, with a structure like that? Unless they were all Kidz, of course......

So, we settled down for the long haul, and it was all over by 4am on Monday - just 14 hours, then......lovely jubbly.

[tikay]

No offence Jim

I dropped 7 buy-ins yesterday, just wanted to disagree with someone about something. 

Not at all - it was a good question. I get some lovely questions on here. Post more often on here Thomas. 

[I KNOW IT]

So, what was unusual about that final at the Empire, then?

Oh yes, forgot about that. And it gives me the chance to swerve 77dave's superbly-well-phrased & diifficult-to-answer-without-getting- myself-in-the-shite question for a shade longer too.....

Well, it had THE most amazing structure. 84 (ish) runners, 15k starting stack, 1 hour clock, all levels, & Antes which had no function at all - they never exceeded the SMALL Blind, in total. Nice if you like that sorta thing, not if you don't. Right up my street, but not everyone's cup of tea.

We - the In-Poker Crew - turned up at 2pm on Sunday, for Day Two, to find 15 runners left.

I looked at the plasma - Blinds 500-1,000, average stack 62,000. (roughly, I forget the exact numbers). 62 x BB AVERAGE - WTF?

I checked again, did my maths 4 times - yes. 62 Big Blinds AVERAGE. On Day Two. With 15 left. Have you ever known an average like that in such a Comp? And how on earth had 69 players busted on Day One, with a structure like that? Unless they were all Kidz, of course......

So, we settled down for the long haul, and it was all over by 4am on Monday - just 14 hours, then......lovely jubbly.

How much was the buy in for this event?

[AndrewT]

So, what was unusual about that final at the Empire, then?

Oh yes, forgot about that. And it gives me the chance to swerve 77dave's superbly-well-phrased & diifficult-to-answer-without-getting- myself-in-the-shite question for a shade longer too.....

Well, it had THE most amazing structure. 84 (ish) runners, 15k starting stack, 1 hour clock, all levels, & Antes which had no function at all - they never exceeded the SMALL Blind, in total. Nice if you like that sorta thing, not if you don't. Right up my street, but not everyone's cup of tea.

We - the In-Poker Crew - turned up at 2pm on Sunday, for Day Two, to find 15 runners left.

I looked at the plasma - Blinds 500-1,000, average stack 62,000. (roughly, I forget the exact numbers). 62 x BB AVERAGE - WTF?

I checked again, did my maths 4 times - yes. 62 Big Blinds AVERAGE. On Day Two. With 15 left. Have you ever known an average like that in such a Comp? And how on earth had 69 players busted on Day One, with a structure like that? Unless they were all Kidz, of course......

So, we settled down for the long haul, and it was all over by 4am on Monday - just 14 hours, then......lovely jubbly.

How much was the buy in for this event?

I think it was a grand.

[tikay]

That Empire Final......

The first big-on-big arose almost as soon as play started.

A young kid - Kier Radcliff - had his Tourney life on the line with 7-7, & found action from TWO spots. Bizarrely, they both had A-K, so Kier fancied his chances.

The flop came....

A-K-.........7

So we got to see an almighty hollah & table bang, & the old yankee triple hand-clap, "YES!". Fair enough, the kid got excited, but part of growing up is controlling yourself, & having a little decorum. Well I think so, anyway. I never saw the boy play another hand after that for, maybe, 5 hours! He just sat quietly, seemingly out of his depth. He had over 100 x BB's now, so no need to worry.

The feature was James Akenhead. Talk about Table Captain, he pretty much slaughtered the Table, & the Structure was made to measure for his game, with so much play. In contrast, stablemate Karl sat pretty quietly, his style is totally different, but no less effective. They clashed twice - heartening to see they don't mess with the soft play stuff.

I've really warmed to Karl, & he put the icing on the cake at The Broadway recently when he did a stunning impression of me, to camera. It was all "hey, let chop it 29 ways", & "AK, Final, & I still have 4 x BB, easy pass" sorta thing. And I loved it.

Anyway, the Final began at about 8pm, & James just bluffed & bullied & blustered almost every hand. It was just terrific to watch, but he tilted young Kier up a treat, who looked more & more like an internet player struggling with the slower pace of Live Play, & he became tilted up because James was targeting him. So he began with the trash talk, "donkey play", " effing muppet", "you idiot" sort of stuff. Nobody semed bothered, they just pillaged his stack. There was a charming Chinese lad on the Table, too, so the boy was mocking his accent - "me am ooow-irn". Hilarious.....

But, as happens, the tide turned against James, who suffered two horror hands. The latter, against the other Big-Chip, was a stonker. James flopped the nut straight, other guy flopped top two, it all went in, other guy Housed up. James looked gutted - not surprisingly, he'd outplayed everyone, but was history now. He still managed an Interview with Compo though, fair play to him.

By now, Karl had exited, too, with the identical hand as he'd perished with in The Broadway Final - KQ. He deserves a break, he seems to do well without cards, if he got a few hands, he'd wreak havoc.

So, now the fun really began in earnest.....

[tikay]

So, what was unusual about that final at the Empire, then?

Oh yes, forgot about that. And it gives me the chance to swerve 77dave's superbly-well-phrased & diifficult-to-answer-without-getting- myself-in-the-shite question for a shade longer too.....

Well, it had THE most amazing structure. 84 (ish) runners, 15k starting stack, 1 hour clock, all levels, & Antes which had no function at all - they never exceeded the SMALL Blind, in total. Nice if you like that sorta thing, not if you don't. Right up my street, but not everyone's cup of tea.

We - the In-Poker Crew - turned up at 2pm on Sunday, for Day Two, to find 15 runners left.

I looked at the plasma - Blinds 500-1,000, average stack 62,000. (roughly, I forget the exact numbers). 62 x BB AVERAGE - WTF?

I checked again, did my maths 4 times - yes. 62 Big Blinds AVERAGE. On Day Two. With 15 left. Have you ever known an average like that in such a Comp? And how on earth had 69 players busted on Day One, with a structure like that? Unless they were all Kidz, of course......

So, we settled down for the long haul, and it was all over by 4am on Monday - just 14 hours, then......lovely jubbly.

How much was the buy in for this event?

I think it was a grand.

Correct.

[77dave]

NP Tank

You have though opened another set of thoughts for me.

You say there is a big difference between B&M and online and of course while there are too completly different animals, they do overlap.

Dwain Chambers being the cheat example used before, was banned while being a 100m runner. His ban though applied to over events. He couldnt just go run a 200m or try out for the long jump.

Even when he did try to move to a new sport of Rugby League he was still persecuted and chased down by the media and there were even calls to have him hurt and his legs broken.

I have never met Bonomo or Telcher i just used them as extreme examples.

The reason i brought them up was i see more and more lets call it angle shooting these days at the tables, but when these things are caught there seems to be very little done about it.

I even saw someone jump across the table at another player at the table the over day, 1 player had been mocking the over for losing a pot. It got very personal and the floor was called but it continued. So he decided to deal with the situation himself and landing a punch square on the jaw.

[I KNOW IT]

The reason i brought them up was i see more and more lets call it angle shooting these days at the tables, but when these things are caught there seems to be very little done about it.

I even saw someone jump across the table at another player at the table the over day, 1 player had been mocking the over for losing a pot. It got very personal and the floor was called but it continued. So he decided to deal with the situation himself and landing a punch square on the jaw.

+1
I have been saying this verbal at the table has been going to far lately. Im not suprised there has been a fight.
I have said to Zac this would happen  at Walsall, people just dont know where to draw the line anymore. People are making comments about hands when they are not even involved. Ive always liked a laugh and joke at the table whilst playing but lately its not enjoyable anymore. It really seems to be a an issue with a lot of players lately too.
Its not just Walsall it seems to be happening in every casino

[Newmanseye]

NP Tank

You have though opened another set of thoughts for me.

You say there is a big difference between B&M and online and of course while there are too completly different animals, they do overlap.

Dwain Chambers being the cheat example used before, was banned while being a 100m runner. His ban though applied to over events. He couldnt just go run a 200m or try out for the long jump.

Even when he did try to move to a new sport of Rugby League he was still persecuted and chased down by the media and there were even calls to have him hurt and his legs broken.

I have never met Bonomo or Telcher i just used them as extreme examples.

The reason i brought them up was i see more and more lets call it angle shooting these days at the tables, but when these things are caught there seems to be very little done about it.

I even saw someone jump across the table at another player at the table the over day, 1 player had been mocking the over for losing a pot. It got very personal and the floor was called but it continued. So he decided to deal with the situation himself and landing a punch square on the jaw.

I have seen this a couple of times myself, I believe some of the players these days think its okto antagonise to the point of offence in poker, they see the likes of Tony G and others that try to tilt with table talk, however the lime seems to be pushed ans crossed to much that I dont blame anyone for losing it at the table.


That in itself raises another point, whats your take Tony on these rude obnoxious players that call it table talk when its just bad manners and lack of respect?

[I KNOW IT]

Television has done a lot of good for poker but its also added to some bad elements imo.
I noticed last year in the Venetion there was an announcement at the beginning of the comp that any conversation about your hand and it will be deemed dead