Tournament Hand of the Week: October 8th

[MANTIS01]

This week we go back to The Grosvenor Casino in Walsall for their monthly £300 NLH event - June 2007

So let's take a look...

The Tournament

Environment:          Live Game
Type:                      Double-Chance Freezeout   
Players:                    92                           
Buy-in:                      £300
Starting Chips:          3,500 + 3,500
Prize Pool:                 £27,600
Blinds:                       200/400
Remaining Players:    75
Average Chips:         8,587

This hand occurs after the first break with the blinds at 200/400 so all double-chance chips have been taken.

History

We doubled-up early in the second half and are currently sitting quite comfortably on 15,800 chips. We have a tight but aggressive image which has been cultivated by entering very few pots...but playing the ones we do enter well.

Our opponents in this hand are two local players we will call Sam and John.

Sam is a highly experienced and excellent player who will take the aggressive route if invited to. When he raises pre-flop he is loathe to surrender the hand without a fight. John is less experienced than Sam and is a bit of a novice in comparison. Having said that he can certainly play and is not afraid to pull the trigger should he think he's ahead.

The Players

Mantis:     15,800     Small Blind
Sam:        17,200     Early Position
John:        12,500    Middle Position

The Hand

Sam makes it 1,600 to go from early position and John calls the bet. It comes round to us in the small blind and we look down to see...

  

So what is your thinking here? I am interested to hear your thoughts about playing a hand like this from such a poor position. Considering the insufficient pot-odds to flop a set is this an easy fold for you? If you do call would you therefore call with any pair or do you have a "pair" threshold in these situations? And does your table-image and lack of activity have any bearing on your decision?

Would you consider re-raising and if not what pair would you need to adopt this strategy? Does the fact that Sam raises affect your thinking?

So the question is fold, call or re-raise and most importantly...why?

We decide to call the extra 1,400 and go to the flop three-handed after the bb folds with 5,200 chips in the pot.

The Flop

    

What is your strategy now? Would it be worthwhile to bet out into the aggressive pre-flop raiser or check to conceal the strength of your hand?

We check and Sam also checks. What do you make of his reluctance to bet?

John decides to take the initiative and makes a bet of 2,500. What is your plan now?

More action and the turn card comes on Wednesday.

[Flea]

Can I ask how many are at the table? (not been to Walsall so not sure if they are 8/9 or 10 seater tables) only this may make a difference to the range we would put the early position raiser on - 10 seater probably limits him to a big Ace (ak or aq minimum) or a decent pair 10's upwards whereas 8-seater may allow him to consider slightly lower than this.

Pre-flop I personally don't mind the call from the SB with 9's as it's a hand with possibilities and the call doesn't pot commit you given your stack.

After the flop I'd like the set but on this board given your descriptions above I'd be just slightly worried about the chance one of either Sam or John had AA and also the fact you're not yet HU in the pot - therefore I'd now reraise to 5,000 and see what Sam does. If Sam calls the 5000 I'd probably be shutting down and thinking he did indeed have AA. The fact John has led out on the flop suggests he's either got a single ace or a large pair and is trying to define where he is in the hand (at the moment it's Sam I'm worried about given the post-flop play).

If Sam folds and John stay's in that's fine as I think I'm ahead now (but slightly wary of possible heart flush draw) - if they both fold then at least you've taken down a reasonable pot without getting into too much trouble.

[George2Loose]

With your chips in this position I would not fold 99, I would flat call and turn it into a set mining exercise- had the raise come from late position I might be tempted to re raise....

After the flop we've hit out set. I personally like leading out in this spot and fast playing the set. With players in the pot I would expect someone to have an ace. The lead out also looks weak and is building the pot at the earliest opportunity. Probably bet between half to three quarters of the pot

With Jon leading out, I would put him on Ax or maybe a flush draw.... I would re raise here too again wanting to scare out draws but also to buld the pot should I get a call....

[MANTIS01]

Can I ask how many are at the table?

It's a full ten-handed table this one. Sam is a very experienced player and it is unlikely he is raising from early position with anything other than a premium hand imo.

[Flea]

Can I ask how many are at the table?

It's a full ten-handed table this one. Sam is a very experienced player and it is unlikely he is raising from early position with anything other than a premium hand imo.

Thanks for that - then what I've said above definitely stands as I don't think John would play AA like this so at the moment we can only be winning or losing to Sam's AA (if he has it).

Definitely minimum re-raise John's bet to find out where we are against Sam IMO.

[Longy]

Preflop is a really marginal spot for me, I like to have implied odds of around 15 to 1 to simply set mine as we are not guarenteed to stack someone everytime we get a set and also our hand doesn't necessarily always hold.

 I don't like re raising too much here the stacks are awkward that shoving is overkill, but if i had to re raise shoving would be my preferred option ,as raising to another amount simply leaves us with horrid post flop decisions oop or calling off the rest of our stack probably miles behind. I also think our hand is not necessarily behind here and as long as we have a solid post flop game we can make a call profitably. I would advise a beginner to chuck this away as this hand isn't going to be easy to play oop against 2 players.

On the flop we have hit gin and while if we were deeper 50bb-100bb's i might lead out to build a pot im happy to slowplay our hand with the intention of getting the chips in probably on a later street, so i like checking.

Once sam has checked i think he most probably has a pair aa-66 lets say, John more likely has an ace. So i have his range something like any ace,33, a flush draw, a pair trying to pick up the pot.

Given these ranges we are only worried about the flush draw, sucking out as well as some random 2 outers and aa. So im happy to flat call this raise and allowing the pot to grow with such a strong holding as well as continuing to disguise our hand.

[TightEnd]

Pre-flop I call, its above what you term a "pair threshold" for me there with your stack against a potentially aggressive Pre-flop raiser. I don't re-raise OOP there re-raising to encounter a r-r-raise where you know you'll be dominated is burning chips, see a flop and proceed accordingly

The characteristics of Sam mean I would tend to lead out on this flop too. Firstly it would be unexpected for many to lead with a set there and although you have a passive image you can reasonably hope to get action from an Ace in either of the other spots and you are denying a free card to hearts. Something like a "weak" lead, 60% of the pot or so.

As it is you check, and sam does too. When the bet comes in position I am thinking A-x there. Sam could be trapping, could have hearts of course. Could have air, you'll have more idea once you've responded to the flop bet from the third player

A check raise here telegraphs your hand given you don't seem to have shown any signs of playing nut draws like this having entered few pots

So I call, assume Sam calls, and then fire on a blank (no heart) turn

[Bongo]

I was going to say exactly that Tighty!

[Graham C]

With John in the pot, I'd call preflop, I think the implied odds are there to hit a set and get paid off.   Without John in the pot, I'd like at least JJ to call preflop really.   

I don't mind the check from early position on the flop, but I'd be weary of letting people in cheaply for flush draws and if you just call here, you're making it better for Sam to continue in the hand.  I think a raise has to come here to narrow the number of opponents and I'd raise to around 6000.

Sam's either hit a monster or nothing.  Perhaps he has Kings and wants to see how things pan out on the flop.  Perhaps he's hoping for everyone to check so he can take the lead on the turn.  I'd expect John to have a decent ace, a flush draw or bottom trips - it's  a feeler bet for me hoping to take the pot here.

[Bongo]

The problem with taking the pot here is that you don't win enough to justify the call preflop. If you call because of "implied odds" you have to do your best to build a big pot when you hit.

This is why I don't like checking the flop - it makes it hard to make a big pot. A check raise is likely to scare off any action because, as tighty says, it telegraphs your hand.

If you bet out not only to you start to build the pot, but your force others to react to you.

[TightEnd]

the presence of the Ace disguises your hand, betting out, beautifully

Bet out!

[Graham C]

Fair point, I've learned something there but...

If you bet out on the flop, surely you are risking not getting the required implied odds too though, at least taking it down on a potentially risky board you are at least getting some return even if it's not what is expected/required to make it +EV.  If the flop came rainbow, I'd be more inclined to check/call.

How much are you betting out to ensure that the others stay in the pot but enough to get somewhere near value for the preflop call?  I guess just over half the pot is the correct amount which would then create the required pot should the others decide to stay at the party

Looking forward to seeing how this unravels now. 

[MANTIS01]

Some really insightful opinions so far.

I think Bongo's comment...

The problem with taking the pot here is that you don't win enough to justify the call preflop.

...is an excellent one.

Good players make the very most of the opportunities that present themselves during the course of a tournament and get paid to the max. This is what I'm trying to do here.

It is interesting to see the different ways we can go about achieving that goal. Like TightEnd, I am a big fan of betting out with strength and if I was HU with Sam I would almost certainly adopt this tactic. He is without doubt capable of recognising the opportunity, as the pre-flop raiser, to represent a hand like A-K and come back over the top.

However, with a trio of players in the hand I decide against this strategy. With three players in the pot I am looking to use and exploit the "sandwich effect" in order to get chips into the pot. I am thinking that if I do bet out Sam is going to be "sandwiched" between me and John and will find it very difficult to make a move with anything other than a big Ace. If he has this sort of genuine hand he will c-bet anyway if I check (with John still to act)...but if he has anything else we loose him due to the sandwich.

Now if John bets and we call after initially checking it gives the aggressive pre-flop raiser the invitation to use the sandwich effect for his own benefit with whatever he holds. He may well put us on the obvious draw and feel that he can shunt John off his A-x by pressuring him with a re-raise. John will now be caught in the sandwich effect with me acting behind and Sam knows that if he gets through John I am likely to give up my draw...and the pot.

These three-way pressurising situations throw up some interesting possibilities to look at. In this particular one I think you may loose aggressive Sam if he doesn't have the Ace because of the sandwich whereas check-calling may allow him to try to take advantage of it.

The other thing with betting out of course is that a call could allow A-x to represent the flush should it come.

Any thoughts on this appreciated.

Really interesting stuff from everyone so far...

[pswnio]

I am not reraising with 99 OOP if Sam is likely to hold a premium hand. I would re-raise with QQ or upwards. Against someone whose range I knew to be wider I don't mind re-raising with 99. In this instance, with 99 and two opps, I am happy to flat call. Even if I don't hit a set, it's potentially playable OOP depending on the texture of the flop.

I agree with Mantis on the post flop play. Against one, definitely lead out. But in the spot I'm loving the check. It's likely that someone is going to bet this flop. I also like the call after John's bet. Then...

1) Sam raises strongly, and you re-raise him. Given your table image, I don't think you'd gain anything from flat calling the re-raise, he'd shut down.

2) Sam calls. Unlikely, but it would get me thinking...

3) Sam lays down. John may be inclined to put you on a draw and as long as the turn doesn't bring a heart, a second check might encourage him to bet again. If he bets the turn fairly strongly, a raise is in order. If John checks behind on the turn, a thinnish value bet on the river would probably get a call from a decent ace.

[action man]

i flat call and lead at the pot for about one half to three quarters of the pot. Im obv willing to go broke with middle set on the flop. There are very few cards that can appear on the turn which will get your opponent interested in, if he isnt on the flop, unless ones that are beating you like TT JJ etc.... lead weak after a litte dwell, i half expect a reraise here, in which instance i call and check raise the turn all in.