Trips, Full Ring

[byronkincaid]

villain is 22/7.5 calls a lot pre then tightens up post, 4 tabler seems pretty solid.

 Seat 1: ByrnKincaid ($230.00 in chips)
Seat 2: jfishy ($338.45 in chips)
Seat 3: socceroo1 ($290.15 in chips) DEALER
Seat 4: FrogFisher ($38.00 in chips)
Seat 5: alexsu73 ($202.00 in chips)
Seat 6: CapitaEnciam ($191.00 in chips)
Seat 7: mamelli ($202.00 in chips)
Seat 8: MasonRidge ($73.85 in chips)
Seat 10: Prough ($101.70 in chips)
FrogFisher: Post SB $1.00
alexsu73: Post BB $2.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ByrnKincaid [ ]
Dealt to jfishy
CapitaEnciam: Fold
mamelli: Fold
MasonRidge: Fold
Prough: Fold
ByrnKincaid: Raise $8.00
jfishy: Call $8.00
socceroo1: Fold
FrogFisher: Fold
alexsu73: Call $6.00
*** FLOP *** [ ]
alexsu73: Check
ByrnKincaid: Bet $16.00
jfishy: Call $16.00
alexsu73: Fold
*** TURN *** []
ByrnKincaid: Check
jfishy: Bet $24.00
ByrnKincaid: Raise $80.00
jfishy: Call $56.00
*** RIVER *** []
ByrnKincaid: Bet $114.00

How would you play it?

[AlexMartin]

smaller blocker bet trying to get to showdown cheap. I think ur well beat.

[TightEnd]

smaller blocker bet trying to get to showdown cheap. I think ur well beat.

I think I agree

Given his post flop tendencies as you describe them I'd be wanting to showdown as cheap as possible after he has called the turn re-r.

[byronkincaid]

he had 77, I posted this cos I couldn't work out if I can lose less money here or if it's just a cooler. If you guys are saying I shoulda seen it I'll take that on board cos I really just don't know. It's the only hand he can possibly have that beats me, he's not calling A5s pre I think, I C/R turn to try to get some value out of a TT or JJ type hand that he maybe folds to a bet, but I guess I could B/F? I think he folds 33 on the flop so unless he had QQ, it's tough for me to put him on an exact hand but I guess all the evidence was pointing to it.

[AdamG]

with his actions during the hand, u look well behind and especially with just a 6 kicker u want to get to showdown as cheap as possible and if u bet and get reraised u cant call, as u arent beating anyting but a bluff...
he calls reraise on turn to try force u to bet turn and doesnt wak u again on turn cos dunt know u have the set... once u fire river he shud b moving in... i suspect.. then ur buggered (in my opinion)

[Rookie (Rodney)]

vul

not as obvious as some like to think it is mate.

[Moskvich]

I think I agree, nasty one and not really all that obvious. Because your hand is so well disguised you know that he has no idea whether or not you've got trips here. At full ring, he probably thinks you almost certainly haven't. So because the range he's putting you on is wider, the range you have to put him on is wider. I certainly wouldn't be at all surprised if he had 88-QQ here, at least before he calls your check-raise.

I would probably agree that you let the pot get too big, but I say that mainly because you're not getting value from the hands you're ahead of. I wonder how much value there is in check-raising so much, since not much beyond 77, A5 s and 64 s is continuing once you've shown such strength and massively narrowed your range for him. There's no real draw that he's called your flop bet with (maybe 86 spades), so you don't really need to price him out. I'd have thought you might be better either check-calling turn and smallish value betting river, or betting say half pot on both turn and river. Obviously in this case he raises and you've still got a tough decision but the times he doesn't have 77 I think you probably make more.

Interesting one though, hope it gets more answers.

[totalise]

you played this fine byron, in fact you played it very very well indeed

what I dont get is this concept of "cheap showdown"in these spots... think logically, you wont ever get to a cheap showdown against hands that have you beat, given that you are OOP, so the concept of cheap showdown in this spot is ridiculous, so instead of trying to get a cheap showdown against a range of hands that wont showdown this hand cheaply unless you have them beat, worry more about maximising value against the weaker part of their range, which is what byron tried to do here.

[totalise]

I think I agree, nasty one and not really all that obvious. Because your hand is so well disguised you know that he has no idea whether or not you've got trips here. At full ring, he probably thinks you almost certainly haven't. So because the range he's putting you on is wider, the range you have to put him on is wider. I certainly wouldn't be at all surprised if he had 88-QQ here, at least before he calls your check-raise.

I would probably agree that you let the pot get too big, but I say that mainly because you're not getting value from the hands you're ahead of. I wonder how much value there is in check-raising so much, since not much beyond 77, A5 s and 64 s is continuing once you've shown such strength and massively narrowed your range for him. There's no real draw that he's called your flop bet with (maybe 86 spades), so you don't really need to price him out. I'd have thought you might be better either check-calling turn and smallish value betting river, or betting say half pot on both turn and river. Obviously in this case he raises and you've still got a tough decision but the times he doesn't have 77 I think you probably make more.

Interesting one though, hope it gets more answers.

if you are worried about the pot getting too big in these spots when you flop disguised trips, it means your overall game has a ridiculously huge leak somewhere else (ie playing so tight that you only ever get action from better hands)  so if this is the case, this hand isnt gonna be your problem, its gonna be all the other hands you play that gives you a problem.

[AlexMartin]

he had 77, I posted this cos I couldn't work out if I can lose less money here or if it's just a cooler. If you guys are saying I shoulda seen it I'll take that on board cos I really just don't know. It's the only hand he can possibly have that beats me, he's not calling A5s pre I think, I C/R turn to try to get some value out of a TT or JJ type hand that he maybe folds to a bet, but I guess I could B/F? I think he folds 33 on the flop so unless he had QQ, it's tough for me to put him on an exact hand but I guess all the evidence was pointing to it.

Fact is the 1/2 games on ipoker are very nitty right now. I know the player too which twists my judgement. I agree its a cooler, but the bluffing frequency of players like him is so low that id be desperate to get to showdown cheaply.

[Moskvich]

I would probably agree that you let the pot get too big, but I say that mainly because you're not getting value from the hands you're ahead of. I wonder how much value there is in check-raising so much, since not much beyond 77, A5 s and 64 s is continuing once you've shown such strength and massively narrowed your range for him. There's no real draw that he's called your flop bet with (maybe 86 spades), so you don't really need to price him out. I'd have thought you might be better either check-calling turn and smallish value betting river, or betting say half pot on both turn and river. Obviously in this case he raises and you've still got a tough decision but the times he doesn't have 77 I think you probably make more.

Interesting one though, hope it gets more answers.


if you are worried about the pot getting too big in these spots when you flop disguised trips, it means your overall game has a ridiculously huge leak somewhere else (ie playing so tight that you only ever get action from better hands)  so if this is the case, this hand isnt gonna be your problem, its gonna be all the other hands you play that gives you a problem.

You're a better and more experienced cash player than I am, but my point was that making the pot this big massively narrows his calling range to the point where you're not getting any value from hands you're miles ahead of. As Alex says, this is a pretty nitty game, and unless you know your opponent is willing to stack off with a middling overpair I'm just not sure whether there's any point revealing your strength by checkraising so much on the turn. If the board had come 55 and a face card then great, because there's no way he's putting you on the 5, and he might well stack off with TPTK or an overpair. But once he calls the big turn checkraise I just don't really see that you're ahead of anything much. If you bet the turn and he raises then he can have TT/JJ etc and you can therefore 3-bet all-in against a wider range.

So it's not strictly that I want to get to showdown cheaply here, it's that I want to get as much as possible out of his 2nd best hands, which I think means taking a different line.

I take your point about how hands like this play in the context of your game - I wonder whether it's maybe one of those that doesn't really have an answer in itself, because it depends how you play the rest of the time.

[doubleup]

I would probably agree that you let the pot get too big, but I say that mainly because you're not getting value from the hands you're ahead of. I wonder how much value there is in check-raising so much, since not much beyond 77, A5 s and 64 s is continuing once you've shown such strength and massively narrowed your range for him. There's no real draw that he's called your flop bet with (maybe 86 spades), so you don't really need to price him out. I'd have thought you might be better either check-calling turn and smallish value betting river, or betting say half pot on both turn and river. Obviously in this case he raises and you've still got a tough decision but the times he doesn't have 77 I think you probably make more.

Interesting one though, hope it gets more answers.


if you are worried about the pot getting too big in these spots when you flop disguised trips, it means your overall game has a ridiculously huge leak somewhere else (ie playing so tight that you only ever get action from better hands)  so if this is the case, this hand isnt gonna be your problem, its gonna be all the other hands you play that gives you a problem.

You're a better and more experienced cash player than I am, but my point was that making the pot this big massively narrows his calling range to the point where you're not getting any value from hands you're miles ahead of. As Alex says, this is a pretty nitty game, and unless you know your opponent is willing to stack off with a middling overpair I'm just not sure whether there's any point revealing your strength by checkraising so much on the turn. If the board had come 55 and a face card then great, because there's no way he's putting you on the 5, and he might well stack off with TPTK or an overpair. But once he calls the big turn checkraise I just don't really see that you're ahead of anything much. If you bet the turn and he raises then he can have TT/JJ etc and you can therefore 3-bet all-in against a wider range.

So it's not strictly that I want to get to showdown cheaply here, it's that I want to get as much as possible out of his 2nd best hands, which I think means taking a different line.

I take your point about how hands like this play in the context of your game - I wonder whether it's maybe one of those that doesn't really have an answer in itself, because it depends how you play the rest of the time.

Good post.  Byron has played the turn as if he has AA/KK minimum and villain doesn't care one bit.

[Smart Money]

Basically, after the flop your hand is the equivalent of AA but with a decreased chance (than usual) of opponent having a set (or two pair) and perhaps an increased chance that opponent may bluff (due to paired board.)

I either check/call turn and value bet river, or- more likely- value bet turn/river. I don't like the turn c/r. I would be aware of 77 being a possibility but not too concerned.